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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: United States President: 2008
Thread: United States President: 2008 [ This thread is 90 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 (77) 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 ]
Moonlith
Moonlith


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
posted November 11, 2008 05:34 AM


Quote:
The fact remains liberal elitist Europe have no racial minority in position of power and not representative percentage of minority in parlimentary bodies. One can only conclude racism is reason.

Correction: that's the only conclusion YOU can come up with.

Moreover you're the only one here thinking in terms of "racial representation", I find that more racist than there not being blacks or ethnic minorities in politics. Heck, I do know we have blacks and other ethnics in politics, but the simple fact is, racial blackground plays ZERO relevance in politics here. And I don't know why it should either.

You're the one who seems to think blacks need to be represented by blacks, and whites by whites (at least, that's what your view comes down to). I call that creating racial division, and definately not something to brag about.

Which is why I say, far behind Euope in that aspect. Not because I'm some liberal elitist. Actually I MIGHT be a liberal elitist, but not for the reasons you deem me one. I'm not a nationalist here.

Quote:
But no matter what I say there will always be US bashers bashing America.

And instead of being blind like a true patriot, you might want to take a look at the situation and wonder if there actually might be a good reason for it rather than thinking your country can't do anything wrong? It's that disgusting arrogant attitude combined with your flaws that is exactly why there is so much hatred growing for America in this world today.

Quote:
But watch and see now if some European countries might elect ethnic minority leader in near future since America is leading the way.


See?
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 11, 2008 05:48 AM


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del_diablo
del_diablo


Legendary Hero
Manifest
posted November 11, 2008 06:19 AM

QP worthy!!!!!!!!
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Mytical
Mytical

Hero of Order
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted November 11, 2008 06:44 AM

The problem is..again the 'labeling'.  "You are American, so you have to be blindly patriotic and think your country does no wrong." is how this that sounded.  Which I am sorry, is simply not the case.  

America has flaws, but show me a country that doesn't.  No nation is perfect.  Yet when America does something wrong, people jump on it like a pack of wolves.

Want you to think about something, however.  The next time you think of America.and think they are all fat, lazy, or blind patriots, or that they think they are all better then everybody else..I want you to actually stop and think. When you think of us this way, do you not think you are better then us?  Are you not guilty of exactly what you accuse us of?  Do you not think your country is 'better' when you think such thoughts?

If not..then why are you thinking that?  For instance..what have I ever done to you?  Besides maybe disagreeing with you.  Try to remember that America is made up of individuals.  Not all of us are shotgun weilding, redneck, anti-'foreiner', beer drinking, elitist who own mansions and look down on anybody not like us.
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william
william


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
posted November 11, 2008 06:47 AM

People jump on America when they do something wrong because I guess people are getting sick of America and the way they act towards other countries, sticking their nose where it doesn't belong. That's how I would perceive it.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 11, 2008 06:54 AM

@ Mytical
I don't see any reason for you to put THAT shoe on. The wrong thing isn't patriotism, the wrong thing is if it blinds you for the flaws and faults, resulting in a we-can't-possibly-be-wrong attitide.
I don't think anyone could put you in that camp.

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Mytical
Mytical

Hero of Order
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted November 11, 2008 06:58 AM

You know what gets me the most, though?  It's like the issues with 'comedy' here.  Somebody can tell as many jokes about 'white' men all they want.  And anybody but a 'white' man can tell any racial joke they want.  Minute the 'white' man tells a racial joke everybody breaks out the pitchforks and torches.  If this was 'bashing' other countries somebody would have already gotten a warning about the CoC.

Now the difference is..I would rather it not be an issue. Because I realize that is problems with America.  Now, how about some sane solutions?  The common person has one avenue.  Voting.  That is it.  Give me a sane, rational solution.  We can't just throw out our government.  We can't topple the big companies or just go up to the president (and congress) and say "Hey..stop being idiots..kthxbai".
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 11, 2008 07:28 AM

Yeah, the comedy thing is right. A comedian said, only when you can tell jokes about minorities those minorities are really integrated (and starts telling a handicapped joke), but he's right, of course.

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 11, 2008 08:45 AM

Proud to be a liberal elitist!
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Moonlith
Moonlith


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
posted November 11, 2008 10:10 AM
Edited by Moonlith at 10:13, 11 Nov 2008.

Quote:
The problem is..again the 'labeling'.  "You are American, so you have to be blindly patriotic and think your country does no wrong." is how this that sounded.  Which I am sorry, is simply not the case.  

Given the fact I don't make the "you're an American THUS you must be blablabla" connection, it does not apply to me and I don't really need to respond to your post.

I get along just fine with Americans (and any other persons) that show they have a actually properly functioning set of brains.

I just don't get along with stupid people.

I ESPECIALLY don't get along with stupid people that flaunt arrogance.

MOST of the time, patriots simply fit that bill

Quote:
If not..then why are you thinking that?  For instance..what have I ever done to you?  Besides maybe disagreeing with you.  Try to remember that America is made up of individuals.  Not all of us are shotgun weilding, redneck, anti-'foreiner', beer drinking, elitist who own mansions and look down on anybody not like us.

You've done nothing to me? I don't have a problem with you? I don't see what your problem is ?
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nocaplato
nocaplato


Adventuring Hero
Lover of Ancient Philosophy
posted November 11, 2008 10:51 AM

The "One Drop Rule"

In response to the earlier, less adversarial discussion about why Obama is considered black, a bit of history might be in order....

In America, because of its early dualistic society of white ownership/black slavery, the problem of race has been far more noticeable than in most other countries.  If America is supposed to aspire to the City on the Hill, slavery is certainly our Original Sin.

In the south throughout American history (until the late 60s), the disparity in ethnic power was more than just cultural as it is today (perhaps that's arguable, but I'll leave that debate alone as too complicated).  It was also legal and very real.  However, slave trade was expensive.  Importing people from Africa was difficult, dangerous and time consuming.  One solution used to help increase slave populations was the 'one drop rule'.  Effectively it meant that any person of black heritage, no matter what percentage that might have been, would be, legally, a slave.  

Later, after the Civil War and during the Reconstruction, there were a series of laws passed in the south referred to as 'Jim Crow laws'.  In order for the majority whites to maintain control and power, a series of petty rules were established to prevent black people from voting.  These included literacy laws, proof of residence laws, citizenship laws and so on, which not only tended to reduce black participation in the political process, but also were far more rigorously applied to African American's than to their white counterparts.  As part of this system, the old 'one drop rule' became a component to help firmly establish the segragationist south.  White southerners did not want their power or authority weakened and they wanted a firm line drawn between the races.  The one drop rule was a simple way to keep African American groups firmly in their position and prevented mixed race relationships through fear among whites (if you were white and married a black man or woman, your children would be considered black, thus a 2nd class citizen).  

The concept of 'miscegenation' comes into play here as well...  The KKK, and many other whites besides, were deeply concerned with white purity.  They were already angry at northern white groups who were sympathetic to the black cause as it was.  However, they also feared that with abolition, and the right to vote, there would be a gradual mixing of the races (miscegenation).  Those with black heritage, any black heritage at all, might be sympathizers and couldn't be trusted, like a 5th column.  Thus, the one drop rule also helped feed into this white fear of impurity.

....

Fast forward a bit here... in the end, America has seen around 350 years of enforcement and legal codification of this one drop rule.  It's part of our cultural dialogue and identity as deeply rooted as the English system of weight and measurement.  In recent years other methods of determining ethnic identity have been suggested, however, like it or not, it's unlikely that change will happen any time soon.  Part of this stems from self-identification, part of it comes from a type of lazy shorthand used by the media and others, and part of it still actually comes from the racist segregational attitudes that cling to us.  If you were to marry into a different ethnic group, how many of you would have to explain that choice to some member of your families?  The conversation about what would become of your children, where would they fit, would they carry on or lose part of their background.... It's hard to believe that conversation not happening among some members of the extended family, and not just in white families, but black families as well.

In addition, even if we wanted to make a change, there's no simple way of doing it.  The term 'Mulatto' was originally used nearly a hundred years ago in referrence to those of mixed heritage, however because of the time of its birth (the Jim Crow era) and the horrible associations it has, to many, it's barely any better than the 'N' word.  Coupled with it, the PC movement has basically died under the backlash of recent years.  While there were certainly some stupid elements to being PC, it had its purpose in trying to find the angels of our better natures.  Unfortunately small-mindedness on one side, and ponderous, painful relabeling on the other kept any real change from taking place.  It's unlikely this system will go away any time soon.

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DagothGares
DagothGares


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
posted November 11, 2008 11:04 AM

Quote:
People jump on America when they do something wrong because I guess people are getting sick of America and the way they act towards other countries, sticking their nose where it doesn't belong. That's how I would perceive it.


(Not to aim at you, william, it's just a short post where I can respond to.)

You can't really dislike a country... Unless it's a monster nation or something. Thing is, America may receive criticism, since they sometimes have that 'Messiah'- attitude. (So actually, 'm agreeing with William, damnit!) But I digress, the only problem we have is two wars, that's all there is to it (and perhaps a banking crisis, but our national banks can be blamed for that as well *sigh*).

(liberal elitism FTW)
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Moonlith
Moonlith


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
posted November 11, 2008 04:58 PM

Quote:
But I digress, the only problem we have is two wars, that's all there is to it

I wouldn't call a war or two that causes insane misery and suffering and death and destruction to millions of people "that's all there is to it", and I would suggest you rephrase that.

That aside there's the whole issue of capitalism causing severe exploitation and enslavement of third world countries through debt and unfair competition, which Europe and other rich capitalistic countries are guilty of as well, mind you. Not to mention the hindrance of actual technological and psychological progress.
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DagothGares
DagothGares


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
posted November 11, 2008 05:24 PM

Quote:
I wouldn't call a war or two that causes insane misery and suffering and death and destruction to millions of people "that's all there is to it", and I would suggest you rephrase that.

I'm sorry, if I put those things bluntly or made light of the situation. I didn't mean to say, 'it's a war and that's all it is, meh.' I meant to say: 'It's war and it's for no good reason (assuming there is a good reason for killing and murdering genocide.), so that's my only reason, if I were to hate American society.'

Quote:
That aside there's the whole issue of capitalism causing severe exploitation and enslavement of third world countries through debt and unfair competition, which Europe and other rich capitalistic countries are guilty of as well, mind you.


Ah, I'm not touching that, since I'm sadly not very familiar with economics. (I do fully realise that Belgium was one of the worst countries in terms of enslavement, back then.)

Quote:
Not to mention the hindrance of actual technological and psychological progress.

I'm sorry, could you elaborate, I'm too stupid ignorant to know about this.

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 11, 2008 06:07 PM

Quote:
That aside there's the whole issue of capitalism causing severe exploitation and enslavement of third world countries through debt and unfair competition, which Europe and other rich capitalistic countries are guilty of as well, mind you. Not to mention the hindrance of actual technological and psychological progress.
Derpa derpa derp sherpa sherpa sherp!
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OmegaDestroyer
OmegaDestroyer

Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
posted November 11, 2008 07:36 PM

Quote:
Not to mention the hindrance of actual technological and psychological progress.


He's talking about how much good the Church did.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 12, 2008 02:35 AM

Yeah, that's a favorite as mine as well.
And another reason why the US sometimes come over so... well. There's so much bigottery there. Nowhere, historically, has the believe in the almighty god and the almighty dollar been so intertwined than in the US which leads to certain...
Well, this is no thread about what's wrong with the US. Everyone has their flaws. But if in a glashouse. don't throw with stones, they say.

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Elodin
Elodin


Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
posted November 12, 2008 03:42 AM

Quote:

Correction: that's the only conclusion YOU can come up with.




As opposed to statement you made that America is far behind Europe? America has black president, no nation in Europe has ethnic minority president.

Quote:

Moreover you're the only one here thinking in terms of "racial representation", I find that more racist than there not being blacks or ethnic minorities in politics. Heck, I do know we have blacks and other ethnics in politics, but the simple fact is, racial blackground plays ZERO relevance in politics here. And I don't know why it should either.



No, it shows that racial minority have not chance to be elected. If racial minority had equal chance to be elected equal representation would occur.

Quote:

You're the one who seems to think blacks need to be represented by blacks, and whites by whites (at least, that's what your view comes down to). I call that creating racial division, and definately not something to brag about.



No, that is not my belief. But if no racism were involved then percentage of ethnic minority in population would be roughlly same as in parliment.

Quote:

Which is why I say, far behind Euope in that aspect. Not because I'm some liberal elitist. Actually I MIGHT be a liberal elitist, but not for the reasons you deem me one. I'm not a nationalist here.



No, if Europe were ahead they would have had ethnic minority electerd as head of country already and would have more ethnic minorites in parlimentary bodies.

Quote:


Quote:
But no matter what I say there will always be US bashers bashing America.

And instead of being blind like a true patriot, you might want to take a look at the situation and wonder if there actually might be a good reason for it rather than thinking your country can't do anything wrong? It's that disgusting arrogant attitude combined with your flaws that is exactly why there is so much hatred growing for America in this world today.



I am not blind, nor have disgusting arrogant attitude but thank you for continued insults. Every person have flaws, so yes I have flaws.

You assume I am American because I am defending her? I hate America bashing. America have done much good for world and recieve no credit from some people. Only unjustified charges. When America elect black president it is "Oh, the hoopla just show how far behing Europe America is."  Hah!

No, I think hatred for America is because of envy of her freedoms and prosperity. Everyone want to blame America that they are not prosperous. Amerca have helped meke democracy possible possible in many places and often defend others from agressive nation.


Quote:

Quote:
But watch and see now if some European countries might elect ethnic minority leader in near future since America is leading the way.


See?


See what? Europe will probably follow lead of America in near future because American trends become trends in Europe many times. But will Amerca get credit for leadership? No, not for those who hate her.

Quote:
Let's review the facts. Obama is 50% white and 50% afro-American. He's obviously NEITHER white NOR black, but something in between. That he is called black just demonstrates how racist the past was, since mixes between white and black are considered black.


Obama is called black because of his skin tone. Black community sees him as black. I think he sees himself as black. That is not racist.

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OmegaDestroyer
OmegaDestroyer

Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
posted November 12, 2008 04:06 AM
Edited by OmegaDestroyer at 04:14, 12 Nov 2008.

Quote:
But if in a glashouse. don't throw with stones, they say.


So why persist?  This thread has been derailed so many times it's pathetic.  Seems like every 6-7 pages or so, someone insults the US, someone defends it, Angelito tells everyone to go back on track and the endless waltz continues.  What's the point?  The people who think America sucks and that Americans are ignorant, arrogant, fat slobs can probably find other forums dedicated to such a subject.   As to the pro-Americans, you're wasting your time.  You're not going to change anybody's opinion on the matter.  It's an endless loop and it's grown tiresome.  With the 2008 election over and the thread off course yet again, I see little point in keeping it open.
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Lord_Pc
Lord_Pc


Promising
Famous Hero
Groin-Grabingly Clever
posted November 12, 2008 04:20 AM

Quote:
As opposed to statement you made that America is far behind Europe? America has black president, no nation in Europe has ethnic minority president


Quote:
No, if Europe were ahead they would have had ethnic minority electerd as head of country already and would have more ethnic minorites in parlimentary bodies.


I take issue with this. Firstly, America does not have a black president, he is a mix, a "mutt" as Obama called it. Kenya has a  black president. America has a president of mixed race. Secondly, to me your statement is racist towards white people. It presents the view that the only way to move forward is to elect ethnic minorities into office. You cannot measure progress through racial representation in the government. Its ridiculous.

Quote:
No, it shows that racial minority have not chance to be elected. If racial minority had equal chance to be elected equal representation would occur.


If a black, asian, hispanic or any other race wanted to be a politician, they would be a politician. Determination would trump injustice. They arent equally represented in government because they dont want to be in politics. The aboriginals of Australia are not represented in government. Its not because there isnt equal opportunity but because they dont care for politics. They dont care for school, they live off the land and have no interest in running for office. equal opportunity does not neccessarily = equal representation.
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