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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: United States President: 2008
Thread: United States President: 2008 [ This thread is 90 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 (83) 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 ]
TitaniumAlloy
TitaniumAlloy


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posted November 19, 2008 08:34 AM

Hitler didn't place any mines.

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OmegaDestroyer
OmegaDestroyer

Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
posted November 19, 2008 08:36 AM
Edited by OmegaDestroyer at 08:40, 19 Nov 2008.

Yet, Hitler ordered the deaths of millions of German citizens.  The President has not done that has he?  He's directed where the soldiers have been sent and their orders.  And really, if you want to pursue this logic, Clinton would be just as guilty of your moral crime for every solider that died during his tenure.

And where's that felony, Alloy?
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TitaniumAlloy
TitaniumAlloy


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posted November 19, 2008 08:39 AM

I would say that starting a war against international law is a felony.

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JollyJoker
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posted November 19, 2008 08:42 AM

What felonies do we have for Clinton, anyway? The only one I know of is not telling the truth about a private thing without any significance for the US except maybe for his wife - or the Intelligence, if we conclude that Clinton might have been wide open for a Mata Hari type of spy or not have been able to push a red button while in busy "communication" in his private office.
As far as I know, a certain kind of appetite for people in that office seems to be not that uncommon. John F. seem to have been a womanizer as well, for example.

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OmegaDestroyer
OmegaDestroyer

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Fox or Chicken?
posted November 19, 2008 08:46 AM
Edited by OmegaDestroyer at 08:48, 19 Nov 2008.

The War on Terror?  Not quite a war in the traditional sense is it?  Not the USA vs. Country X.  Nope.  USA vs. Noun.

The war is against international law?  I didn't know there were international laws against war.  What do those laws say?  "Don't start war or... uh, well just don't."  What happens if you start one?  Does the UN write you a nasty letter and ask you to stop?

Perjury is a 5-year felony in the states, 7 in the United Kingdom, and probably the same in Australia.  Starting a conflict isn't a felony.

===============================================================

@JJ

Simple.  President Clinton went under oath and lied.  That's all you need for perjury.  Doesn't matter what it is.  You lie, you've committed a felony.
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JollyJoker
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posted November 19, 2008 08:47 AM

For a Bush felony, I don't know what exactly he has to swear when becoming president, but I'm pretty sure he's guilty of false oath, since he ruined his country - willingly. And if he's not guilty of that he's guilty of being unfit for the job - impostery, if you want to. He declared a war without UN mandate, but that's not a felony for the president of the US WITHIN the US or in his office.

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TitaniumAlloy
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posted November 19, 2008 08:52 AM

No I meant the invasion if Iraq.




Quote:
Starting a conflict isn't a felony.

Does it really matter what you call it?



I mean, they threaten to impeach Nixon because of tapping phone lines.
Felony or not, starting a massive scale conflict kind of dwarfs that, in my opinion anyway.
I'm sure there are some dead Iraqi's who can testify. Oh, wait...


Then there's the bundle of things that come with it such as the torture and the surveillence etc etc.

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OmegaDestroyer
OmegaDestroyer

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Fox or Chicken?
posted November 19, 2008 08:52 AM
Edited by OmegaDestroyer at 09:06, 19 Nov 2008.

Quote:
For a Bush felony, I don't know what exactly he has to swear when becoming president, but I'm pretty sure he's guilty of false oath, since he ruined his country - willingly. And if he's not guilty of that he's guilty of being unfit for the job - impostery, if you want to. He declared a war without UN mandate, but that's not a felony for the president of the US WITHIN the US or in his office.


You honestly believe President Bush willingly ruined his country?  That he woke up one morning with the intent to run it into the ground?  That he wanted the legacy of being one of the worst President's in history?  I doubt anybody would want that.  Besides, even if that were the case, there is no law against such a thing. Impostery isn't a felony.  If that was the case, I'm sure someone would have already filed charges against President Elect Obama for having very little experience when it comes to the executive branch of government.  He did not declare war because the President CAN'T declare war.  That is a plenary power of Congress.  

@Alloy

Yes.  It does matter.  People do things that are morally wrong all the time that aren't felonies.  

Sorry to bail but I need to get bed.  4:07 A.M. is late, even for me.
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JollyJoker
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posted November 19, 2008 09:19 AM

George W. Bush lied, claiming WMDs to be found in Iraq, and he lied claiming terrorist contacts for Saddam. Both is not true. Presenting false evidence. Lying to the Congress - in a matter of life and death. Instead his Secretary of State was sacrificed.

For Clinton I wonder on what grounds he was even questioned about the thing. You have to construct a direct connection between his actions with Levinsky and his office as a president - I doubt that there is any.

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nocaplato
nocaplato


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posted November 19, 2008 02:38 PM
Edited by nocaplato at 14:44, 19 Nov 2008.

Could he (Bush) be arrested for being criminally stupid?

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JollyJoker
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posted November 19, 2008 02:52 PM

That would give him an excuse AND would set a dangerous precedent.

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TheDeath
TheDeath


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posted November 19, 2008 03:01 PM

Quote:
"Don't start war or... uh, well just don't."  What happens if you start one?  Does the UN write you a nasty letter and ask you to stop?
Yeah but you won't see a war (with an invasion obviously) being started against a country with nuclear arsenal, that's for sure.
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OmegaDestroyer
OmegaDestroyer

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Fox or Chicken?
posted November 19, 2008 06:10 PM
Edited by OmegaDestroyer at 18:16, 19 Nov 2008.

Quote:
George W. Bush lied, claiming WMDs to be found in Iraq, and he lied claiming terrorist contacts for Saddam. Both is not true. Presenting false evidence. Lying to the Congress - in a matter of life and death. Instead his Secretary of State was sacrificed.


What's the felony again?  Again, I love how people blame the President when Congres authorized all the funding for the conflicts.  Why?  Because they wanted it to happen. Just because the reports didn't find any information on weapons of mass descruction doesn't mean there were never any there.  If anything, the President acted on poor intelligence and didn't do enough research.  As to Saddam, you honestly believe he didn't have such contacts?

Quote:
For Clinton I wonder on what grounds he was even questioned about the thing. You have to construct a direct connection between his actions with Levinsky and his office as a president - I doubt that there is any.


The president is the moral leader of the country.  Yeah, it's ironic that anyone in politics is a moral leader of anything.  When allegations of infidelity come up, people begin to question the president's character.  If he is going to lie to his wife, who else would he lie to?  Frankly, if Clinton had acted less like an attorney and more like an adult, and just admitted everything, there would have been no perjury and thus, no felony.
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Elodin
Elodin


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posted November 19, 2008 07:27 PM

Quote:
Felony or not, starting a massive scale conflict kind of dwarfs that, in my opinion anyway.
I'm sure there are some dead Iraqi's who can testify. Oh, wait...


Then there's the bundle of things that come with it such as the torture and the surveillence etc etc.


You mean dead terrorist? Yes there is some dead terrorist. Most Iraqis very glad to be rid of Sadaam. I am quite sure many Iraqis would testify to that.

America didn't start conflict terrorist and terrorist supporting Sadam did. Sadaam refused to live up to requirements of his surrender in previous war. There were many reasons to remove Sadaam.

Since war on terror there has been no more terror attack on US soil so I think clearly Bush did primary job of president to protect country from foreign and domestic enemy.

Clinton who actually broke US law in lying under oath. Ordinary US citizen would have gone to jail.

Quote:
For a Bush felony, I don't know what exactly he has to swear when becoming president, but I'm pretty sure he's guilty of false oath, since he ruined his country - willingly. And if he's not guilty of that he's guilty of being unfit for the job - impostery, if you want to. He declared a war without UN mandate, but that's not a felony for the president of the US WITHIN the US or in his office.


Of interest is that Democrats have been majority in US Congress for 2 years. Democrats were the force behind requiing banks to make subprime loans to minorites even if minority could not afford house. Democrats are responsible for much of US financil crisis. Democrat also block US desire to drill in places where US have oil going back many years.

Quote:
George W. Bush lied, claiming WMDs to be found in Iraq, and he lied claiming terrorist contacts for Saddam. Both is not true. Presenting false evidence. Lying to the Congress - in a matter of life and death. Instead his Secretary of State was sacrificed.


No, Bush did not tell lie. Sadaam tried to make everyone think he have WMDs. There is American news program called "60Minutes" that hve interview that is enlightening.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/01/24/60minutes/main3749494.shtml

Sadaam did not anticipate US to launch major invasion because of his refusal to be inspected and comply with terms of previous surrender. He wanted everyone think he had WMDs because to give him power in Middle East.

Of interest is also almost all Democrat in Congress voted for war. They had exact same intelligence reports as Bush received.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted November 19, 2008 07:38 PM

As far as I know there's this thing about not guilty unless PROVEN otherwise.
While I have no sympathy for SaddamHussein the whole thing was a witchhunt. Saddam had been asked to surrender his - "proven to be there" WMDs. He said he had none. Ah, so he was spiteful, like the witches when they wouldn't show their craft. Like, throw her into the water, if she lives we can kill her as a witch, if she dies her soul is with God. Consequently the US invaded.
Now, if there had been any... why didn't they use them? So, there were NONE, they didn't use ANY, and they found none.
Secondly, the contact with terrorists. Where is any proof? In fact Saddam didn't approve.
Faked evidence. Lies. All in the aftermath of 9/11, all taking advantage of people's fears.
Now compare that with Lewinsky. I mean, WHO CARES? Except Hillary, of course. Who was hurt? Except Hillary, maybe?
So why ASK him about it at all? Isn't that something between him, his wife and maybe Lewinsky?
You could say, Clinton screwed a woman and his wife
Bush screwed a couple of countries, including his own

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OmegaDestroyer
OmegaDestroyer

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Fox or Chicken?
posted November 19, 2008 10:59 PM
Edited by OmegaDestroyer at 23:09, 19 Nov 2008.

Clinton lied under oath.  You can go on thinking he was a great person and that it isn't a big deal, but that will not erase the fact he committed a felony.  
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Elodin
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posted November 19, 2008 11:08 PM

Quote:
As far as I know there's this thing about not guilty unless PROVEN otherwise.
While I have no sympathy for SaddamHussein the whole thing was a witchhunt. Saddam had been asked to surrender his - "proven to be there" WMDs. He said he had none. Ah, so he was spiteful, like the witches when they wouldn't show their craft. Like, throw her into the water, if she lives we can kill her as a witch, if she dies her soul is with God. Consequently the US invaded.



It is strange to say Sadaam was victim of witch hunt. I think hatred of US is clouding someone's judgement. Sadaam refused to comply with treaty that he agreed to when he surrendered. He also claimed to have WMDs and had used WMDs in past. Why should not US believ that Sadaam still had them? In no way was Sadaam innocent person being persecuted by US.


Quote:
Faked evidence. Lies. All in the aftermath of 9/11, all taking advantage of people's fears.



What a foolish and unfounded allegation. Somehow evil Bush plotting against innocent Sadaam with lies and trying to terrorise his own people to agree with him. Ludicrous.

Quote:

Now compare that with Lewinsky.


Comparison is Clinton lied on video tape under oath. He committed crim that would send ordinary citizen to prison. Bush have committed no crime. You should not excuse crime of someone who you have political agreement with and make up crime to accuse someone with that you have disagreement with.


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Vlaad
Vlaad


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posted November 19, 2008 11:20 PM

Quote:
The War on Terror?  Not quite a war in the traditional sense is it?  Not the USA vs. Country X.  Nope.  USA vs. Noun.

The war is against international law?  I didn't know there were international laws against war.  What do those laws say?  "Don't start war or... uh, well just don't."  What happens if you start one?  Does the UN write you a nasty letter and ask you to stop?

Perjury is a 5-year felony in the states, 7 in the United Kingdom, and probably the same in Australia.  Starting a conflict isn't a felony.
crime against peace

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OmegaDestroyer
OmegaDestroyer

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Fox or Chicken?
posted November 19, 2008 11:24 PM
Edited by OmegaDestroyer at 23:27, 19 Nov 2008.

Not much of an international law without any enforcement is it?  Not really a war of aggression either.

Where's my felony?  So far the score is:

President Bill Clinton - 1
President George W. Bush - 0
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nocaplato
nocaplato


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posted November 20, 2008 02:41 AM

I don't know how much Bush himself is or was involved with felony action.  The idea of plausible deniability is at play here which could certainly exonerate the man.  That's not to say there haven't been a lot of odious decisions made over the last eight years.

Here's a list off the top of my head:

The flimsy case for war.

The use of Ahmed Chalabi, a known influence panderer as your prime source of information on yellow cake uranium.

The outing of Valery Plame.

The suspension of Habeas Corpus for terror suspects.

The use of extra-ordinary rendition.

The alteration of the FISA act to allow for domestic spying.

The torture of prisoners with 'extreme interrogation tactics'.

The establishment of Gitmo and the holding of prisoners without speedy due process.

The information gathering methods on American citizens without need for warrents (as in the Patriot Act).

I'm sure there are more I'm forgetting, however it's possible none of these was actually a prosecutable offense under American law.  Some might be prosecutable under Geneva Conventions as war crimes, but actually bringing something like war crimes is highly unlikely unless there is damning evidence connecting Bush directly to rendition or torture.  

Cheney on the other hand....

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