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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Battle strategies
Thread: Battle strategies
maretti
maretti


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted September 13, 2005 04:06 PM
Edited By: maretti on 13 Sep 2005

Battle strategies

Losing a lvl 7 creature is a pain but sometimes you just feel so confidente that you go into a battle where you risk losing one. Here are 3 examples:

1. Finally you got a good game going on blockbuster. Tazar as main and angels week 1. You have 2 angels and stats 5 10 2 2, exp armor and exp tactics and 6 spellpoints. You attack horde lizard warriors, easy win, then you see horde grand elfs guarding boots of speed, you think: Tazar will crush those damn elfs, you enter the battle and UPS 90 grand elfs in 6 stacks. You feel the sweat on your forhead, damn and the worst thing is you are playing LKru and you dont wanna lose to him again. How do you get yourself out of this mess?
Restarting your comp and claiming the game crashed is not an option

2. You play jebus, week 2 you have 3 angels, stats 8 5 3 2 with exp offence and basic armor, 12 spellpoints and all lvl 1 spells, you got logistics,  visited a stabel and has gloves so you outran your scouts, you see a hive and since you are not gonna come back to it you decide to take it out now, you enter and... WTF 90 dragon flies, you get a bad feeling in your stomach, you are playing Durell so you can allways hope he suicides but you would rather not lose any angels here. How do you kill those damn flies without losing any angels?

3. You play balance, Crag as main, 3 behemoths in your army in 1 stack and stas 15 6 2 1, no spellpoints, lately you have been crushing everything on your way so you dont even check how many dwarves there are before entering the treassurie, dwarves are weak, but hmm 30 battle dwarves and 120 dwarves, dwarves have a tendensy of getting moral at the worst possible time and you want to be as strong as possible to finally kill _hwarang_kor_ so how do you minimize the risk of losing a behemoth?
____________
Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck

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Russ
Russ


Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
posted September 13, 2005 04:40 PM
Edited By: Russ on 13 Sep 2005

Quote:
1. Finally you got a good game going on blockbuster. Tazar as main and angels week 1. You have 2 angels and stats 5 10 2 2, exp armor and exp tactics and 6 spellpoints. You attack horde lizard warriors, easy win, then you see horde grand elfs guarding boots of speed, you think: Tazar will crush those damn elfs, you enter the battle and UPS 90 grand elfs in 6 stacks. You feel the sweat on your forhead, damn and the worst thing is you are playing LKru and you dont wanna lose to him again. How do you get yourself out of this mess?
Restarting your comp and claiming the game crashed is not an option

I am assuming that since you've already got yourself into the fight, taking the fodder with you is not an option.
Attack tose two elves and pray for morale:
->elf
elf
elf
->elf
elf
elf
That way at the beginning of the round 2 you will only have 4 easily blockable grand elf stacks. Even if they decide to move, chances are you will still be able to block all of them on round 2. Spells like blind, paralyze, hypnotize or frenzy are the best in this case to deal with the 2 non-blocked elf stacks. If you don't have those, your 2-nd choice is magic arrow or another offensive spell. If your magic arrow is too pathetic compared to the number of critters in the stack, curse will work better. (8 damage per elf on average vs guaranteed 6 damage per elf)
Quote:
2. You play jebus, week 2 you have 3 angels, stats 8 5 3 2 with exp offence and basic armor, 12 spellpoints and all lvl 1 spells, you got logistics,  visited a stabel and has gloves so you outran your scouts, you see a hive and since you are not gonna come back to it you decide to take it out now, you enter and... WTF 90 dragon flies, you get a bad feeling in your stomach, you are playing Durell so you can allways hope he suicides but you would rather not lose any angels here. How do you kill those damn flies without losing any angels?

Split the angels - the flies will try to weaken all of them instead of concentrating on 1 stack, which will split the damage more or less evenly and theoretically your 3 angels can take 447 damage and survive As for the spells - hmm... curse the fly in the middle (it moves last I think, so you can leave it cursed with its 18 flies until the end)
to illustrate:
f---------------f
------a--a-------
----a----------f  <- curse this one
-----------------
f---------------f
Quote:
3. You play balance, Crag as main, 3 behemoths in your army and stas 15 6 2 1, lately you have been crushing everything on your way so you dont even check how many dwarves there are before entering the treassurie, dwarves are weak, but hmm 30 battle dwarves and 120 dwarves, dwarves have a tendensy of getting moral at the worst possible time and you want to be as strong as possible to finally kill _hwarang_kor_ so how do you minimize the risk of losing a behemoth?

That is too easy, I think. Wait, kill one of the stack to your left, then kill another one, rinse and repeat.
____________
Vegetarian: Old Indian word for Bad Hunter.

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lkru33
lkru33


Promising
Famous Hero
3x NFL Pick'em Champ
posted September 13, 2005 05:06 PM
Edited By: lkru33 on 13 Sep 2005

1) I agree with what Russ said above, I would position my angels so they are just in reach to hit stack 3 and 4 round 1, then go for stack 2 and 5 round 2.  Only thing I would do different is wait round 1 and let them shoot with broken arrow, then cast cure or stone skin on the damaged angel. Then go for the all out kill.  

Quote:

That is too easy, I think. Wait, kill one of the stack to your left, then kill another one, rinse and repeat.


3) Depends if battle dwarfs can be reached round 1.  If so, attack right away, and finish them off on retaliation.  From there, wait, attack, run and try to stay 2 turns away from a full stack of dwarfs in case of morale.  
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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted September 13, 2005 05:34 PM

If the battle doesn´t happen on grass (speed of GE´s!!)i would handle the Grandelf situation a bit different. Coz in your case Russ, the remaining 4 stacks are ALL able to attack the same angel in first round...(only if the blocked one won´t move that is...doubtfull...but who knows...lol). So i would attack the second and the fifth stack of the GE´s. That way u can be sure the TOP and the BOTTOM stack of the GE´s are not able to reach the same angel with melee attack.
Forget this comment if battle is on grass, coz then the GE´s have speed 8 and will be able to reach the angel.

The battle vs. the dwarves is not that easy as it sounds on the first hand. Speed 6 vs speed 3...u won´t outrun the 3 stacks from the right side that easy. If a full stack hits u, i guess it will make about 40-50 damage. 2 morals, which makes them able to hit you, and u loose 1 of your behies.
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.

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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted September 13, 2005 05:47 PM
Edited By: angelito on 13 Sep 2005

About the dragonflies......
I suggest battle is on grass, so u start coz angels also have speed 13.
I would attack the middle stack on the right side with ALL angels in round one. That way, BOTH stacks on the left won´t be able to reach your angels and u get attacked only by 2 full and 1 retail stack in round one.
You will start on next round, coz flies acted last in previous round, and now u attack the flies in the order they will have their turn. Means, u attack the (former placed) top right stack first, they will retail (reduced number already) and attack...now your 2nd angel attack the (former placed) bottom right stack....and so on....a cure at the start of 2nd and 3rd turn should be enough to let them angels survive.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.

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Russ
Russ


Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
posted September 13, 2005 06:18 PM
Edited By: Russ on 13 Sep 2005

Quote:
1) I agree with what Russ said above, I would position my angels so they are just in reach to hit stack 3 and 4 round 1, then go for stack 2 and 5 round 2.  Only thing I would do different is wait round 1 and let them shoot with broken arrow, then cast cure or stone skin on the damaged angel. Then go for the all out kill.

So, 6 double attacks at 1/2 penalty on THE SAME angel (6*2/2=6 full attacks in total) + 20 hit points from the cure restored (unless some of the elves decide to morale and pWnZor ur bottom angel because of that - in which case you are completely snowed and have to retreat since there is no way 1 angel can handle 6 grand elf stacks).

Now, my way:
2 full double attacks (one of them reduced by spells) = say, 3.5 full attacks?
+ 2 * 1/2 attacks from 2 blocked elves = 1 full attack
+ 2 * 1/2 attacks from 2 severely reduced (if not dead) elf stacks = say, 0.5 full attacks?
Grand total: 3.5 + 1 + 0.5 = 5 full attacks that are SPLIT between the 2 angels! (Obviously they are not split evenly, but they are still split!)
Now - you don't have to worry about 4 stacks moraling because they won't do much damage. But even if one of the non-blocked stacks decides to morale, the total will only be 7, which is the same as what it would be if one elf moraled in your scenario. On round 2 you can cast your cure if one of the angels is too close to death, but most likely you won't need it.

So, to sum it all up 6 full grand elf attacks on one of your angels (with the possibility of having to retreat!) vrs. 5 full attacks split between your angels.

Your way is very very good for no melee penalty shooters such as zealots, mages, evil eyes, dusas, etc, but it is definitely not a good idea against double shooting grand elves or makrsmen.
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Vegetarian: Old Indian word for Bad Hunter.

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lkru33
lkru33


Promising
Famous Hero
3x NFL Pick'em Champ
posted September 13, 2005 06:29 PM

Keep in mind Russ that I am also the person that said Angels + Caslte on BB.  So add this to your things to laugh at me about on the zone  

I usually like to wait until I can test these things out before making a post, but I figure if I put something down, it will at least stir up some discussion.  

Maretti, when you use a name of a person to fear in a game, take a look at my posts here and you will see for yourself I am not 1 of those people on the list

Anyone for a tribes game?  You are guaranteed a win  
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Russ
Russ


Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
posted September 13, 2005 06:37 PM

Quote:
If the battle doesn´t happen on grass (speed of GE´s!!)i would handle the Grandelf situation a bit different. Coz in your case Russ, the remaining 4 stacks are ALL able to attack the same angel in first round...

That's exactly what I want, angelito The walking elves will hit the top angel while the shooting elves will shoot the bottom angel. I want the damage to be split as much as possible
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Vegetarian: Old Indian word for Bad Hunter.

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Russ
Russ


Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
posted September 13, 2005 06:55 PM

Quote:
Keep in mind Russ that I am also the person that said Angels + Caslte on BB.  So add this to your things to laugh at me about on the zone

MUUAHAAHAHAHAHAHA!!! (j/k)
It is good that you actually made me count it, it is good practise I should do those calculations more often in hard battles like this one rather than just following the same template all the time Especially - BEFORE attacking something like a full clop stockpile with a week 2 rampart army (elves, dwarves, pegasi and unis) when I am 1 week ahead of my opponent and there is no need to rush it
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Vegetarian: Old Indian word for Bad Hunter.

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maretti
maretti


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted September 14, 2005 12:17 AM

I will wait a little while before I post what I concider to be the best solutions. I hope more people will give it a shot, but thanks so far for the pretty detailed answers.

Kru, you are doing a great job trying to keep your noobstatus but you dont fool me

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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck

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Xarfax111
Xarfax111


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
posted September 14, 2005 03:18 AM
Edited By: Xarfax111 on 19 Sep 2005

Quote:
2. You play jebus, week 2 you have 3 angels, stats 8 5 3 2 with exp offence and basic armor, 12 spellpoints and all lvl 1 spells, you got logistics,  visited a stabel and has gloves so you outran your scouts, you see a hive and since you are not gonna come back to it you decide to take it out now, you enter and... WTF 90 dragon flies, you get a bad feeling in your stomach, you are playing Durell so you can allways hope he suicides but you would rather not lose any angels here. How do you kill those damn flies without losing any angels?


Everybody has his own "technique" to clear buildings. Here is mine, maybe someone likes it. It is "only" a 60 Dragflies Hive ...but i only send in any lvl1 might hero without a spellbook to balance that. Also no moral influence, although angels are more likely to get. This works only on gras



First move looks a bit stupid as the angel only moves "next" to a dragon fly. Thats necassary as this angel in this place will have to handle more damage in the end, so no damage for this angel first round. As the Fly up left will go next, the other angel gets attacked.



Now the second angel attacks the left fly to reduce them. These angels get hit for another 2 times, but is in a more "protected" area then the other. On the next round the first angel reduce the middle dragon fly. As this angels always "go first" it was important to save his hitpoints first round to do so cause of the retaliation hell get.



Also important is that the middle dragon fly will stay to the end, so that only one 12 stack can attack the angels each. Again it shows useful to save the hitpoints first round, as the left down dragfly will go first on this angel. Retaliation is absorbed from the angel so that the 5 dragonflies prefer to hit that angel too. Always check your health of each Angels and the flies should be history



Ok and thats what u get without loosing anything

...sorry the pics are gone somehow

Ok, good luck in your games Xarfax1


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Santis
Santis


Hired Hero
posted September 14, 2005 11:27 PM

I must say,Xarfax,you really know,how to win battles in those situations.I do it your way.

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csarmi
csarmi


Supreme Hero
gets back
posted September 16, 2005 07:11 PM

In the Grand Elf fight, the simple "wait" strategy worked quite well for me - one of the angels lost about 120 hp. (cast a magic arrow into #3).
Then I simply attacked two stacks, then another two stack making sure only a very low amount of elves could shoot clearly; from then the fight is quite simple (the badly injured angel ran away in turn 3 to return in turn 4 while the other one held up 4 stacks alone).

The Dragon Fly fight is fairly easy, a trivial strategy like Xarfax's works fine.

In the dwarf fight just attack the BD stack right away to stay as far from the opposite 3 stacks as possible. The fight is still a little risky if the dwarves get too many morales.

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Russ
Russ


Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
posted September 19, 2005 04:26 PM

Quote:
In the Grand Elf fight, the simple "wait" strategy worked quite well for me - one of the angels lost about 120 hp. (cast a magic arrow into #3).
Then I simply attacked two stacks, then another two stack making sure only a very low amount of elves could shoot clearly; from then the fight is quite simple (the badly injured angel ran away in turn 3 to return in turn 4 while the other one held up 4 stacks alone).

I made level 80 Tazar hero with 99 defense and the simple "defend" strategy worked well for me - one of the angels lost a few hps. I simply defended every turn, until elves ran out of shots then they came to me and i killed them with retal.

Conclusion: when fighting against the grand elves, always defend your armies, and you should win.

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maretti
maretti


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted September 21, 2005 04:28 PM

The way I think these battles should be played:

1. I actually found myself in the grand elf battle once (not vs Lkru though) and what I did was about the same as Russ suggested. I hit stack 2 and 4. Then the top 4 ges all attacked the top angel and the 2 bottom ges shot at the 2nd angel. This ment that the damage was devided as good as it could be and then the 2nd and most damaged angel should only take care of to stacks of ges. I tried the battle again to see if they would move the same again and they did. Im not sure though that they will move that way 100% of the time.

In generel when I attack shooters in 5-7 stacks with a few single units like angels or rocks I allways hit number 2 ,4 and 6. This way if a unit should get moral it will usually not be a full stack. Example: If the first stack morals it wont be full since ive just retaliated on it. If the 2nd morals it wont be full since I hit it in the first place.

2. In this fight the flies usually all try to hit the same unit so that there wont be more than one retaliation. This means that u have to protect the 3rd angel which normally will be hit by the first 2 stacks of flies. I do that by attacking f4 with a1 from the left side just above the corner. A2 attacks f3 from the corner and a3 attacks f4 from the corner. Since ur angels in theory can take 597 damage and all survive u have to devide the damage the best u can. What u do is letting the one with most hp attack the bigger stacks and the one with fewest hp attack the small stacks or stacks that has allready been attacked. When one of the angels get to about 30-40 hp u cast shield or stone skin on it. Then the flies wont attack it as long as they cant kill it with one strike (pretty stupid since they can dispel the spell but the fact is they wont attack this unit)Make sure this angel wont recieve any retaliation. This way u should win the fight without losing any angels.

f3--------------f1
------a1--a2-----
----a3----------f5
-----------------
f4--------------f2


3. The only mistake u should avoid is waiting round 1. If u wait u cant attack in round 2 without being hit by 30 dwarves (the behemoths kills about 15 dwarves pr strike) So u should attack the battle dwarves right away. They will die round one then. Round 2 u wait and then attack the top stack, round 3 u finish it off. Round 4 u wait, hits a stack from behind and then runs towards the opposite corner the next 2 rounds. This way u get out of reach and then u can wait and attack etc. This way u will be very unlucky if u lose a behemoth.

____________
Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck

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