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| Thread: Unemployment and the Future |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Jebus
Promising
Supreme Hero
TheJester akaJeebs akaJebfoo
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posted September 20, 2005 09:58 PM |
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Quote:
Oh, so you've never used any public roads? Never used publis transportation? Never gone to public schools? Never used free health care (if you have such things in Canada)? Never gotten anything from the government?
Why the hell do you pay taxes, if not to repay what you owe society? (Or, more specific, to help society remain a society - by helping it provide collective goods that would have been freaking hard to get without tax financing.)
I think, again, our definitions are off....
owing society is not what I consider paying for a service.... I pay taxes for all those things, yes, whether they be medical bill, my benefit plans or my municipal taxes....
but we were talking about someone who lived OFF society for a few years to get to the point where they can pay those wonderful taxes....
I've taken out loans for school and housing but im paying them back to the government...
someone on SS is not going to EVER pay that back (like you would a loan)... they'll just start paying taxes like everyone else. In the end, we're both paying the taxes, but im paying extra due to my loans.(that are not through welfare)
(not sure if that's clear)
so while I was working then paying taxes, that were paying for this person's welfare so that they can get a apt, food, and an education, they don't have to pay that back (they were living OFF society).
Your argument would make sense if welfare worked like canada's pension plan... we pay for the seniors because they, in turn, payed for the seniors of that time....
just like im paying today, for when ill need to dip into the canadian pension plan... everyone pays cuz everyone uses it.
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"You went over my helmet??"
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Rage08
Famous Hero
Making it in the real world
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posted September 20, 2005 10:29 PM |
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About what Wolfman said at the beginning...
It would appear to be a "mean" thing to say at first glance, but one should take a look at the situation we've got ourselves into... we have a major problem of overpopulation here guys... actually, in Canada it's the least of a threat and it's still something we should consider. I want to provide a generalized opinion with hopes that nobody will be offended, but at the same time people can understand the truth. Not easy by the way. What we need to realize is that humans have now more than completely taken over the Earth. There are just too many of us, plain and simple. Obviously we cannot point our fingers at any one person, because we are talking about everybody here. What are we supposed to do? That's the exact question that nobody can answer, so it isn't looked into nearly as much as it should be. I think this is a symbol of human nature... when something becomes too overwhelming we tend to look at it in a way where we feel there is absolutely nothing we can do so we don't even try. And, of course, this one post isn't going to make any difference at all in the world, which represents how much just one person really matters to the planet, and yet we're all unique and important to somebody or something. There's not really much I can say here, but basicly this directly affects everything in our lives. Especially things like jobs.
So, all in all, I tend to have a rather bleak outlook on this subject just as the rest do, because it seems so inescapable now... but something has to be done or else humans may be killed off by a problem that they have created...
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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
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posted September 20, 2005 10:33 PM |
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Mother Nature knows how to take care of herself. My guess is that we'll soon see a plague that'll make the Black Plague look like a good-natured flu.
And guess who'll be affected the most?
yep, it's those pesky poor people, and welfare recipients. Joy and glee.
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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Jebus
Promising
Supreme Hero
TheJester akaJeebs akaJebfoo
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posted September 20, 2005 11:26 PM |
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Quote:
yep, it's those pesky poor people, and welfare recipients. Joy and glee.
the fact that welfare recipients will be no more exposed to any such plague that anyother "productive" member of society.
.. and the way mother nature works, IS to kill off the weak and the sick...
Rage,
you have it right when you say that we need to do something about over population but the biggest problem is not WHAT to do... it's that the solutions infringe on most human rights.
...(and when the world is ready, Jebus will come forth with an idea for world wide birth control..  )
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"You went over my helmet??"
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Russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted September 21, 2005 03:56 PM |
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Quote:
and when the world is ready, Jebus will come forth with an idea for world wide birth control..
I think gg has it in her signature "best birth control method? leave the lights on".
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Jebus
Promising
Supreme Hero
TheJester akaJeebs akaJebfoo
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posted September 21, 2005 04:33 PM |
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Quote:
I think gg has it in her signature "best birth control method? leave the lights on".
that wouldn't help for those who live by the philosophy:
"party't'ill she's cute!" 
(but Jebus' plan is foolproof.... shhh.... )
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"You went over my helmet??"
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted September 27, 2005 04:11 AM |
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Quote:
You know what motivates someone to get a job and work?? STARVATION!!
(but where I come from, even the homeless have access to shelter, blankets, free hot food and water!!)
Indeed, royal luxuries.. food, water, shelter and blanket.
Leave the scum starving on the streets, that'll teach em a lesson.
ps: Jebus, i wish that your would-be daughter gets pregnant with 16. That way she'll know how a friend of mine felt. And you'll know how her father felt. I see you implement ur birth control program then.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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bjorn190
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
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posted September 27, 2005 04:40 AM |
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In fact, the economy is a kind of structure, where unemployment is part of it, and a certain level of unemployment is upheld through monetary policy.
That means that the unemployed usually aren't to blame for the unemployment. If they did try harder to get jobs, someone else would be unemployed instead, since there are X amount of jobs and Y amount of ppl.
if X is 95 million and Y is 100 million then there's gonna be 5 million unemployed.
Punishing those 5 million for it would be like having an inverse lottery where u win a sucky life at random.
Personally, I think what makes you human is what you do for others without gaining from it or having to do it. To give up part of your position of power and let someone else get more than their fair share to help them. Humans die, but our noble acts live eternally. The principle of being your brothers keeper is overwhelmingly more important than the principle of seizing everything you can through the means and strategies at your disposal.
Mercy is sometimes more important than fairness. And we just gotta carry that cost.
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Jebus
Promising
Supreme Hero
TheJester akaJeebs akaJebfoo
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posted September 28, 2005 10:50 PM |
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Edited By: Jebus on 28 Sep 2005
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Quote:
Leave the scum starving on the streets, that'll teach em a lesson.
ps: Jebus, i wish that your would-be daughter gets pregnant with 16. That way she'll know how a friend of mine felt. And you'll know how her father felt. I see you implement ur birth control program then.
unfortunetely if that happens it would be too late to "implement" my plan wouldn't it??
I have a pretty good idea of how those people feel...
It's sad to say that I have a few cousins that are guilty of abusing of our social service system.
I was also raised by a single mother that had her first child as a teenager, decided to get married, have a second child then divorce so I can probably relate (but thanks for your concerns regarding my feelings).
(and have you actually read all the posts or are you just taking a shot at me for that one comment?)
Bjorn,
nobody will ever "recognize" me or anyone else for paying their wonderful taxes! 
J
EDIT:
Svarog,
Not that Im trying to stir the pot here but with the level of birth control education that we have (maybe differs from where you are) these days, there really aren't any justifiable excuses to BE pregnant at 16. (and if you can't support the baby, there are ressources for that too)
...And im pretty sure I mentioned something about an "education/jobplacement/payback program somewhere in all my rants!
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"You went over my helmet??"
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted September 29, 2005 04:35 AM |
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Quote:
(and have you actually read all the posts or are you just taking a shot at me for that one comment?)
I always read all the posts before posting belated comments like that. If nothing else, just to make sure that no one before me made the same post.
In your case, I'm so angry/dissapointed about almost all that you wrote. Terje tried to bring some reason in the thread, but some people just remain unpeople. I'm not the one who'll change them.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Jebus
Promising
Supreme Hero
TheJester akaJeebs akaJebfoo
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posted September 29, 2005 05:41 PM |
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Edited By: Jebus on 29 Sep 2005
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well I'd be interested in hearing your feelings about some of the stuff I've written...
I think my views may be pretty harsh (especially if you're a socialist ) but trust in that my opinion is a direct result of what society has shown me up until now..
(funny that I was arguing with Terje about society's role and now here I am using it as a justification of my opinion)
well if you'd like to discuss the things that bothered you, you know where to find me!
EDIT:
I guess I should add that after my discussion with Terje, I came to the conclusion that the differences in our opinion seems to result from the differences in our governments services. (and is it coincidental(?) that the canadians who have posted shared the same views and you guys do to?)
thanks for clearing up that you read the whole thread before replying..
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"You went over my helmet??"
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted September 30, 2005 02:52 AM |
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The difference between you and terje arises from the fact that you'd never hear him say this:
"You know what motivates someone to get a job and work?? STARVATION!!
(but where I come from, even the homeless have access to shelter, blankets, free hot food and water!!)"
With people with such moral values I refuse to discuss any economic-based issues, from the simple fact that it always comes down to that.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Jebus
Promising
Supreme Hero
TheJester akaJeebs akaJebfoo
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posted September 30, 2005 04:08 AM |
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Well I can't force you to talk about it...
if you chose to close yourself off from the opportunity to understand another... so be it.
My comments are based on what I see in my environment.
(but it's ok, judge me... you're not the first and sure won't be the last)
... hmmm makes you wonder why the world is in such conflict? If people can't talk about their differences and conflicts online, how are they supose to do it face to face?
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"You went over my helmet??"
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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
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posted September 30, 2005 05:01 AM |
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Slightly more on-topic:
I read the classic Conservative argument for taxes the other day, and it was so well phrased, I almost joined the Conservative Youth (but they're Liberalist scum, so it would have been to no avail  ). Anyway, here it is:
"Taxes is the cost of civilization."
The reason why I find it to be so beautiful, is that the Norwegian party whose senior politicians thought like that until about 1990, now define lowering of taxes as "reducing the amount of money the state steals from the individual". Perhaps we should redefine food rationing as "how the collective keeps individuals from stealing too much of their food"?
Or taxes: "How the collective reduces the fraction of its rescorces that are stolen from it by individuals."
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted September 30, 2005 04:01 PM |
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omg
Quote:
I almost joined the Conservative Youth. (but they're Liberalist scum, so it would have been to no avail)
LoL! Just lol!
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Roses Are Red And So Am I
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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
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posted September 30, 2005 11:05 PM |
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Waaah!
That's the second time you do that, Consis, and frankly, it's scary, since I have no idea what you mean!
What I suppose you mean, though, is the seemingly obvious contradiction in the part of my post you quoted? If so, let me try to explain what I meant.
First of all, notice how I didn't use the phrase "Liberal", but rather labelled the Norwegian Conservative Youth (they're really called the Young Right, but that'd be even more imprecise) as "Liberalists". Now, whereas Liberals are, at least in my book - and in most of Europe - Social Liberals, who follow the doctrines put forward by John Stuart Mill and the people who followed in his steps. These people were concerned about the trends they saw in the 19th century, with laissez-faire capitalism (or, more specific, economic liberalism), and advocated that also the working classes should have political influence. They also support a more socially responsible form of capitalism, where the capitalists are responsible for the living standards of their employees, amongst other things.
Like I said, (Social) Liberals were in opposition to the laissez-faire economic liberalism, in the tradition of Smith and Ricardo (the man behind the Iron Law of Wages), where capitalizing were the primary goal of everything, and where the proletariate were kept in utter poverty, with terrible housing conditions, and whatnot.
Conservativism is originally refers to the movement that arose after the French Revolution, that had as its goal to recreate the pre-revolutionary society, with privileges for the nobility, and things like that. Soon, however, the Conservatives realized that it is impossible to revert evolution, so they instead set forth to slow it down, since they were appalled by the Red Terror of the French Revolution (however, I seem to remember that they saw the White Terror as necessary), which they saw as a result of too hasty changes in society.
As time elapsed, European Conservativism has grown more into a moral dimension, and taken over the social and economic views of the Social Liberals. (This is of course the general trend in Europe - there were, naturally, anomalies that strayed from this norm.)
That, however, lasted only until the mid-20th century, when Conservative morals connected with Liberalist economic theory, in the creation of what today is known as Neoconservativism. (It is my belief that this "unholy alliance" was made because the economic elites saw - conciously or not - that a society based on these principles (laissez faire economics and reactionary morals) would greatly benefit them.)
So, this is the background for what I posted above.
"Tax is the cost of civilization" is a classical Conservative or Social Liberal point of view.
"Tax is state theft from the individuals" is a Liberalist or Neoconservative point of view.
So, ro recap: The Norwegian Conservative Youth (or Young Right) used to be Conservatives, but sometime after 1970, they became rabid market fundamentalists, and thus became Liberalists, or worse.
I hope this cleared things up.
(Consis: You probably knew this already, but if so, then hopefully other people can benefit from this. )
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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arachnid
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted October 02, 2005 02:05 AM |
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Im not sure that you've ever really worked within the system but I can speak out of experience that here in Ontario, the percentage of abuse is much higher than that(and are you sure that that's acurate or is that a guess?). and im not saying that it shouldn't exist, I just think that it's way to easy to get on, and there's no motivation to get off. Having said all that, we get calls from all sorts of groups(landed immigrants, 16 year olds without jobs, teenaged mothers who's mothers are on welfare...) just bleeding the system. If you saw the services available and how easy it is to abuse of that system you may change your opinion.
and im not much of a believer that "we" as society should be paying to support these cases.
You blame welfare mothers and the poor for bleeding the system? Making the hardworking tax payer pay to help them out right?
But every year America spends 170 billion dollars giving tax breaks to corporations that are more than capable of paying for expenses themselves. Thats $1,388 a year from every american to provid welfare for the rich!?
In contrast even clumping all the social programs together to help the poor, of 50 billion. A smaller $415 a year from the average American worker. Thats just a bit over a dollar a day to help the poorest people and you grudge them that?
Why are they so many unemployed and why is it rising you ask? The answers simple
Ways to stop unemployment? How about governments and unions standing up for the workers/people that put them in power rather than pandering to blackmailing corporations. The only reason there is so much unemployment is because they are not happy making 100 billion dollars a year when if they can fire 40,000 workers or move the jobs to a third world country we could make 120.
For example even in 1999 during a "recession"(apparantly)the salary of the average large company in the U.S., the top dog pocketed $5.2 million. That means the average CEO pay at large companies was $1,017 an hour (The average worker in the U.S. got $16.23 an hour) . How did they make so much money while millions were fired?
Well by kicking the common man in the nuts repeatedly Downsizing, union-busting,working longer,lower pensions, longer hours(averaging 5 weeks more a year in work hours than in 1973) , benefit reductions, demands for labor flexibility and forcing productiviy gains that can never be reached.
The 13,000 richest families in the U.S. now have almost as much income as the 20 million poorest.
And those 13,000 families have incomes 300 times that of average families
1 percent of Americans owned 40 percent of the country’s wealth.
They also said that if you eliminated home ownership and only counted businesses, factories and offices, then the top 1 percent owned 90 per cent of all wealth.
And the top 10 percent owned 99 percent!
Are you a believer that society should be supporting these cases?????!
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bjorn190
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
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posted October 02, 2005 04:04 AM |
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It's too bad that most good people in the world are too busy with their everyday things to get involved in the governing of the world we live in.
I wish that everyone would make it their business to create a better world for everyone. But in reality, most people just wake up, have breakfast, talk to the family, go to work, talk to work colleagues, daydream, check mail, go home, watch tv, go out, come home, go to bed.
That leaves a power vacuum where people use their influence and will to create powerstructures that benefit them at the expense at the majority. And the people are happy if they get their "bread and circuses" :/
They only do things if the bread is missing. But usually, by that time these days, it is too late, and all the bread is in the khayman islands, and all the bread factories are in China.
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Jebus
Promising
Supreme Hero
TheJester akaJeebs akaJebfoo
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posted October 02, 2005 05:16 AM |
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Are you a believer that society should be supporting these cases?????!
uh.... no.
I don't believe that at all.
just like I don't believe that the single mother who has a job (who doesn't qualify for subsidized housing or mother's allowance) should have to pay anything (even if it's only 4hundred and some odd dollars a year) to support someone who can stay at home, drink all day (and pay for that beer with a beer chit) and never hold any responsibility for the money they spend. (but if you've read my posts, IM sure you understood all that!)
(and before svarog jumps all over my comments, that's how the system works in ontario)
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"You went over my helmet??"
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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
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posted October 03, 2005 12:45 PM |
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Quote:
You blame welfare mothers and the poor for bleeding the system? Making the hardworking tax payer pay to help them out right?
But every year America spends 170 billion dollars giving tax breaks to corporations that are more than capable of paying for expenses themselves. Thats $1,388 a year from every american to provid welfare for the rich!?
In contrast even clumping all the social programs together to help the poor, of 50 billion. A smaller $415 a year from the average American worker. Thats just a bit over a dollar a day to help the poorest people and you grudge them that?
Why are they so many unemployed and why is it rising you ask? The answers simple
Ways to stop unemployment? How about governments and unions standing up for the workers/people that put them in power rather than pandering to blackmailing corporations. The only reason there is so much unemployment is because they are not happy making 100 billion dollars a year when if they can fire 40,000 workers or move the jobs to a third world country we could make 120.
For example even in 1999 during a "recession"(apparantly)the salary of the average large company in the U.S., the top dog pocketed $5.2 million. That means the average CEO pay at large companies was $1,017 an hour (The average worker in the U.S. got $16.23 an hour) . How did they make so much money while millions were fired?
Well by kicking the common man in the nuts repeatedly Downsizing, union-busting,working longer,lower pensions, longer hours(averaging 5 weeks more a year in work hours than in 1973) , benefit reductions, demands for labor flexibility and forcing productiviy gains that can never be reached.
The 13,000 richest families in the U.S. now have almost as much income as the 20 million poorest.
And those 13,000 families have incomes 300 times that of average families
1 percent of Americans owned 40 percent of the country’s wealth.
They also said that if you eliminated home ownership and only counted businesses, factories and offices, then the top 1 percent owned 90 per cent of all wealth.
And the top 10 percent owned 99 percent!
= recipe for revolution.
If, as Björn said, they only run out of food first.
Quote:
Quote:
Are you a believer that society should be supporting these cases?????!
uh.... no.
I don't believe that at all.
just like I don't believe that the single mother who has a job (who doesn't qualify for subsidized housing or mother's allowance) should have to pay anything (even if it's only 4hundred and some odd dollars a year) to support someone who can stay at home, drink all day (and pay for that beer with a beer chit) and never hold any responsibility for the money they spend. (but if you've read my posts, IM sure you understood all that!)
(and before svarog jumps all over my comments, that's how the system works in ontario)
So, are you saying that you don't think poor people should pay taxes?
I mean, since there's obviously no way that we can ensure that the tax money of the single mom doesn't go to some alcoholic bum, wouldn't it just be better to allow her not to pay taxes? 
Anyway, your post above seems to indicate that you distinguish between "deserving" and "undeserving" poor - is this true?
If so, don't you think it's a little far fetched to hold a view that emerged among 18th century Enlish puritan bourgeois, based on the view that God favours the faithful, and that people who fail in life are sinners who only get what they deserve?
And please, for God's sake, stop your exaggerations - you can't expect people not to misinterpret you when you constantly use sarcasm and exaggerations as rhetorical tools, especially not since these tools are unfit for use in written texts.
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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