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Heroes Community > Heroes 4 - Lands of Axeoth > Thread: HOMM3 to HOMM4...too similar? too different?
Thread: HOMM3 to HOMM4...too similar? too different?
undead_wolf_...
undead_wolf_lad


Adventuring Hero
Undead Wolf Wrangler
posted August 29, 2001 05:09 PM

HOMM3 to HOMM4...too similar? too different?

I'm not going to run down the list of differences between the two because I'm sure everyone here is well aware of them, but I pose a few questions...

1-are you disappointed that some of the new towns are basically "renamed" mixes of previous towns or are you happy to see a fairly generous carryover from HOMM3?

Personally, although I like having some carryover, I am very disappointed that there are fewer towns. I understand the need to playbalance, but I honestly expected more town types. There were so many interesting ideas thrown around about town types (themes) that I feel like they played it a bit too safe with their choices. And call me greedy, but I want more with each game, not fewer choices.

2-is the change in magic system welcomed or are you upset they messed with something tried and true?

Obviously, we won't REALLY know until we play it, but I personally love the change in the schools. But again, I wanted more town types and their "pentagram" concept wouldn't fly unless they doubled it to 12 (2x5 for magic using towns + 2 non-magic using towns like the Stronghold for 12)

3-are you satisfied with 4 levels of creatures per town?

Sure, there are 2 variations per level, but you can only have 5 creature types per town rather than the 7. I like that they dropped the upgrade system, because it was fairly unnecessary (who used basic units after they upgraded?), but I don't see a great argument for having fewer units except for needing fewer assets and less time to play balance. If they want to cling to the "they are more focused and the gaps between the levels is greater" argument that's fine, BUT they could have the same amount of focus and gaps between levels with 6 or 7.

4- Lastly, (because I could just keep going on and on)...there seem to be some conflicting goals amongst the gameplay changes. In some regards, they've streamlined things to allow action earlier, without "runner" heroes , etc. (with fewer creatures, caravans, and such), BUT there are elements which will seem to slow the game down considerably (Fog O' War, and simultaneous damage which will increase losses and make building larger armies more difficult). Do you see potential problems with game times (especially multiplayer) because of the depth of hero building involved and the above mentioned changes?

I know I have an extremely difficult time getting multiplayer games on large maps finished in any reasonable amount of time because my friends and I don't have more than a couple hours a week to play and muliplayer games would stretch on forever. And we don't like the smaller maps, because there's little chance to really build a hero and rush tactics usually prevailed (which sucks).

Any thoughts regarding the differences or lack of between HOMM3 and HOMM4 would be great...
(and please don't just send a list of creature types you wished were in it )
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sikmar
sikmar


Promising
Known Hero
The Moonchild
posted August 30, 2001 08:37 AM

My personal preferences...

Many responses to the questions you made:

> 1.- Are you disappointed that some of the new towns are
> basically "renamed" mixes of previous towns or are you
> happy to see a fairly generous carryover from HOMM3?

I an ideal world, I'd like to have ALL of the HOMM3 creatures and a bunch of new ones. More options means more fun for me. Of course the carryover creatures could be a little redefined in their stats, graphical design and alignment, in the way they were carried over from HOMM2 to HOMM3. If this is technically impossible (too creatures to make a 3D animation process for each one), they could simply have wiped out the unupgraded versions, but having about half the creatures we're used to is a disappointing fact for me.

> 2-is the change in magic system welcomed or are you upset
> they messed with something tried and true?

First at all, this new system seems far superior to me, at least at this point where nobody has played it. It's far difficult to imagine a lot of magic schools making them different and balanced. What about having two town types for each magic school (and two non-magical towns)? Imagine our well-known towns (also slightly redefined) aligned in the following manner:

- Rampart and Fortress sharing nature magic
- Inferno and Necropolis sharing death magic
- Tower and Conflux sharing order magic

And we'll need three new towns to pair with Castle, Dungeon and Stronghold. They could be:

- Castle and Bastion (a refugee of disavowed beings of the rest of towns, all united in a commercial brothership) sharing life magic
- Dungeon and Seaport (Pirate town) sharing chaos magic
- Stronghold and Factory (mechanical, not tech, town)
both of them relaying on pure strenght to face their enemies.

> 3-are you satisfied with 4 levels of creatures per town?

I think branched development is a great innovation. It will be perfect if we could have the same old 7 levels, but having to choose between two creatures at each level, and maybe an eight superlevel very hard to build. As you say, I'm also ready to forget the upgrading system, but all those "few creatures are best" arguments are nonsenses to me. The only reason I understand is the enormous increase of work necessary to make a lot of 3D creatures with well defined characteristics, and the need of expansions!! :-)

That's all of what comes to my mind right now. I know there's no time for wishing, but there's only time for dreaming.
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Preserver
Preserver


Promising
Famous Hero
Elemental Druid
posted August 30, 2001 02:38 PM

Quote:
What about having two town types for each magic school (and two non-magical towns)? Imagine our well-known towns (also slightly redefined) aligned in the following manner:

- Rampart and Fortress sharing nature magic
- Inferno and Necropolis sharing death magic
- Tower and Conflux sharing order magic

And we'll need three new towns to pair with Castle, Dungeon and Stronghold. They could be:

- Castle and Bastion (a refugee of disavowed beings of the rest of towns, all united in a commercial brothership) sharing life magic
- Dungeon and Seaport (Pirate town) sharing chaos magic
- Stronghold and Factory (mechanical, not tech, town)
both of them relaying on pure strenght to face their enemies.

What about 5 new towns between the old ones. Examle: One town where you get both nature and chaos magic (fortress) and another one sharing death and order magic etc. (like the gold cards in MtG)
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UnkaHaakon
UnkaHaakon


Responsible
Famous Hero
happily tilting at windmills
posted August 30, 2001 06:10 PM

The biggest change

The change with the most far-reaching implications is the new role of heroes in the game.

In all three of the previous games, heroes were nothing more then a collection of spells and attack / defense / movement modifiers. Heroes 3 tried to give them a bit of a personality with special abilities, but it wasn't all that successful. There were a few great, even over-powered heroes, but they were still removed from the action.

In Heroes 4, the role has changed. Since heroes are now a real part of your army, and can be developed in many different ways, most of the old tried and true strategies and tactics are out the window. My inner Barbarian is just itching to develop high Archery skill and personally put an arrow through the brisket of some spell-casting wimp trying to pull a hit and run. The inner Wizard is just aching to Charm the socks off my opponents mine guards, just to add insult to injury.

More than anything else in Heroes 4, I think learning how to develop heroes and how to properly utilize the new skills is going to take the longest time to get used to, and will be the subject of the most debates.
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thunderknight
thunderknight


Promising
Famous Hero
posted August 31, 2001 12:26 AM

I think h3 to h4 is quite DIFFERENT.

Well, less town/creature/level in h4 is maybe NWC wants to save time in balancing and game testing. Nevertheless, I also see another reason.

Coz NWC has taken the risk by changing the long-used gameplay system from h1 to h3, so one question in their mind must be "Will the new system be welcome ?". Therefore, they may act cautiously and try to "test" our taste first before invest too much time and $$$ in it. If new gameplay system works, then we MAY see return of many creatures in expansion of h4. (I hope so. )
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and love what you choose.

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Kyrre
Kyrre

Tavern Dweller
posted August 31, 2001 04:39 PM

1-are you disappointed that some of the new towns are basically "renamed" mixes of previous towns or are you happy to see a fairly generous carryover from HOMM3?

i think its a good thing that they have lots of carrie over since that will take less time too learn the creature but offcourse it would be nice with some more towns and new troops... guess you have to wait for expansion...

2-is the change in magic system welcomed or are you upset
they messed with something tried and true?  

I totally agree with the new system will be far superior!
But it will proberbly be much harder to develop a hero with good spell in different scholls, guess you want be able to use town portal and dimension door anymore...
I think they will have to make the spells much more powerfull then i have seen so far, othervise i think the creature producing castle like stronghold and preserve will win on pure might, partically since you will have to gather bigger troops cause of the simultaneous damage...

3-are you satisfied with 4 levels of creatures per town?

"I think branched development is a great innovation. It will be perfect if we could have the same old 7 levels, but having to choose between two creatures at each level, and maybe an eight superlevel very hard to build. As you say, I'm also ready to forget the upgrading system, but all those "few creatures are best" arguments are nonsenses to me. The only reason I understand is the enormous increase of work necessary to make a lot of 3D creatures with well defined characteristics, and the need of expansions!! :-)"

i totally agree, i dont want to have less creature, cant really see the potenial of having too choose between two creature...

4 Do you see potential problems with game times?

I can defintly see the problem, especially with abilty such as stealth, you can search forever to finish a hero off...
and as i said simultaneous damage is proberbly a bad thing..
The only solution too multiplayer is as you mention smaller maps and rush tactics with might heroes. Thats why i usually play single player, i put a lot of faith in the new Ai. Hopes it takes awile too figure out itīs flaws...

I told you my truth!

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Thorman
Thorman


Adventuring Hero
posted September 02, 2001 12:40 AM

1-One thing you have to understand,even creatures from HoMM3 or previous ones will be quite "new" in HoMM4,there is now a difference between creature's movement and creature's speed.They are not only "carryovers" but new creatures with same name.The stats have been entirely reviewed.

From HoMM2 to HoMM3,changes werent big.These changes will affect the fighting strategies big time.I like it,just hope its balanced.

I wasnt expecting lots of change about creatures,i dont think they could have changed the whole set of creatures,players like HoMM's cuz there is dragons,titans,elves,golems,.......

I dont really care about having less creatures,as long as towns are tougher to build.

2- I agree with kyrre for this point.Just hope dmg spells are better in HoMM4 than HoMM3.

3-I cant say im satisfied,but i prefer to have Heroes on the battle field doing something else than just standing in a corner casting spells.Barbarians will be even better.Still have a lack of magic but they will do something at least.Having heroes on the battlefield could explain why they drop the number of units.

Problem is, we will all try each creatures at least once,then chose the 5 units we prefer for each towns.Cant see why someone would pick hydras instead of Black Dragons(which will surely be the strongest unit,at least best stats).But again,we dont know much about most creatures.

Im for the upgraded units,but not the way it was done,should be really tough to upgrade any units.Maybe you could only upgrade onced your "basic" town is completed.Then upgrading could be done for units.Upgraded units would be much better,really expensive to purchase and build.

4- I can see some problems,but will have to play a few games before i can really say how i feel about those changes.
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