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| Thread: Can you know/calculate when/if a wandering creature will flee/join or fight? | |
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GabyStan
Known Hero
Seeking Wisdom
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posted September 30, 2005 12:11 AM |
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Can you know/calculate when/if a wandering creature will flee/join or fight?
While I was doing research about Heroes 2 there I found a strategy file saying your troops have to be dunno how many times stronger than the wandering creatures for them to flee (impressed by your forces) or offering to join, but not hit points-wise. Surely not depending on hero skills/artifacts, for in H2 AI always makes its choice to attack (or not) solely on the HP ratio of the opposing troops. I thought evaluation of your army may also depend on the kind of creatures you carry (archers, Dragons etc.)
So my question is if anybody can tell us how can we calculate when a stack of creatures (of course if we know exactly how many they are) will fight or flee (join) before our hero in Heroes 3? Of course if at all possible, coz in H3 things are much more complicated due to creature disposition value, so this may be an improper (impossible/too difficult to answer) topic.
Of course, this would differ if having diplo as a skill.
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Your worst enemy is... yourself.
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kuma
Promising
Supreme Hero
u can type so much text in her
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posted September 30, 2005 04:16 AM |
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You might wanna check out the post I believe Bjorn made on this: Diplo 1o1
Joiners without diplo? I have had that maybe 2 times in a zillion games. no clue what triggered that.
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People used to call me crazy, but now that I'm rich I am excentric.
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GabyStan
Known Hero
Seeking Wisdom
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posted September 30, 2005 09:41 AM |
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Yea, I've read the diplo post, Kuma, is comprehensive and helpful, but I'd like to know how things work without it (usually diplo's banned, anyways).
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Your worst enemy is... yourself.
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pitsu
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 30, 2005 02:55 PM |
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There is always a probability factor, unless mapmaker has forced a stack to join or fight no matter of circumstances.
Maybe you have read it, but a description of diplomacy skill and how it works. If you have not read it yet, you might find some useful stuff.
Copy-paste from Viktor "Coyot" Urban writings based on Gus Smedstad information:
Diplomacy makes it more likely that:
...* Monsters will join you for free.
...* Monsters will join you for money.
...* Monsters will run away (avoid fighting).
Each monster has an aggression level, set at the start of the game. You can adjust the range of aggression in the editor, but there's always a random factor, unless the monster is "compliant" or "savage."
When you encounter a monster group, the monsters first decide whether to fight. The decision depends on your strength, how friendly they are, your diplomacy skill, and whether you have similar creatures in your army.
If they are friendly or ambivalent, they may decide to join you. For normal monsters, 10% of the time they'll join you for free. Every level of diplomacy makes this 10% more likely. Having similar creatures also makes this 10% more likely. Having an army that is mostly similar creatures makes it 20% more likely.
Example: Sir Christian has an army composed exclusively of pikemen, and Expert diplomacy. Normal pikemen and halberdier stacks will join him roughly 60% of the time - if they don't fight.
Diplomacy also allows you to persuade monster stacks to join for money.
You always get the full stack, and the price doesn't change. Each level adds 10%.
Of the pikemen stacks that Sir Christian encounters, another 30% will offer to join for money, again if they don't fight. Only 10% of them will flee without offering to join. Sir Christian's a really likable guy.
If the creatures are ambivalent, and you turn down the offer to join, they'll fight you. If they're afraid (or impressed by your silver tongue), they'll run away. Diplomacy never makes it more likely they'll fight. If you turn down an offer and get a battle, they would have fought you anyway.
This is for normal, "Aggressive" monsters. If they're set to "Complaint" in the editor, they'll join anyone. If they're "Friendly", they're 30% more likely to join. If they're "Hostile", they're 30% less likely to join - you'll need Expert diplomacy, or similar creatures, to have any chance of them joining for free. If they're "Savage", they won't join anyone.
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pitsu
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 30, 2005 02:59 PM |
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Just in case my first post wasn't clear enough: you can only estimate the probability how likely monsters join, but you can never *calculate* whether they actually join or not.
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GabyStan
Known Hero
Seeking Wisdom
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posted September 30, 2005 04:54 PM |
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I see Pitsu (arn't you Romanian?). As a matter of fact, Viktor Urban is one of the guys which I found out from about various details of the game, then sent him some e-mails thanking him for his time etc.
Back to our monsters here, I've read that info about diplo Kuma recommended me also. But there's a point when having one more Imp (let's say) in your army makes the difference between the monsters fighting you or fleeing/joining. It has to go the same way in both Heroes 2 and 3, coz in H2 there are same kind of monsters, ones that NEVER join you, no matter what army and diplomacy you have.
(Maybe the asian guy nicknamed "Zenith God", Roland's Campaign (former) world record holder, was just self-praised about possessing this knowledge.)
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Your worst enemy is... yourself.
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pitsu
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 30, 2005 05:29 PM |
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Quote:
I see Pitsu (arn't you Romanian?)
no, I am not.
Quote:
Back to our monsters here, I've read that info about diplo Kuma recommended me also. But there's a point when having one more Imp (let's say) in your army makes the difference between the monsters fighting you or fleeing/joining.
sorry about double posting then. Visit Heroescommunity rarely and miss things easily. 
As far as I know and imagine, one imp makes sense only as much as the experience(strength) values of armies count. And when considering whether there are similar units in your army and whether they are a majority or minority.
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Thorin
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 01, 2005 12:52 PM |
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to GabyStan
If you're asking what must be done in order for creatures to join you,then I'll tell you.
First:You be thougher than the creatures,Second:You must have Leadership,Third:u must have diplomacy,Fourth:if you have Leadership and Diplomacy,but aren't strong enough,if you refuse the offer the monsters give you,they can attack. Any of these+a though army will satisfy the monsters.
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GabyStan
Known Hero
Seeking Wisdom
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posted October 01, 2005 01:30 PM |
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Thanks, Thorin, I appreciate your helping with some advices. But what I would like to know is something like this: a stack of (let's say) agressive monsters flee before you if your army has a combined total of X times the creatures' Hit Points (or X times their damage, or something like this specifics). I know there are percentages involved, but surely there is that limit when creatures get afraid and would prefer negociating depending on a single extra tiny creature with your hero.
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Your worst enemy is... yourself.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted October 01, 2005 02:19 PM |
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Leadership doesn´t influence wandering stacks.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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durell
Adventuring Hero
Sub-n00b
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posted October 01, 2005 04:06 PM |
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are you aware of the usefullness of the visions spell when trying to swell the ranks of your army using the diplomacy method?
visions gives tou a much clearer idea of whether the creatures are likely to join you,be aware that the creatures need to be within range of you for the spell to work.im not certain but i think that for each point of spell power you have,the range of the spell increses by 1 hex of movement from your hero.
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Stars are just pin holes in the curtain of night.
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Guitarguy
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Rockoon.
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posted October 01, 2005 05:48 PM |
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Quote:
Leadership doesn´t influence wandering stacks.
Well, I think Leadership can be important to your army once you assimilate multiple wandering monsters. There's little use having a huge army that keeps getting slowed down by bad morale.
-Guitarguy
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted October 01, 2005 06:12 PM |
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Sure leadership helps a lot to prevent bad moral when having creatures from many different town types in your army. But Thorin said u need Leadership to have higher chances creatures will join your army...and that´s not true..
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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durell
Adventuring Hero
Sub-n00b
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posted October 01, 2005 10:29 PM |
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To clarify.....cast visions whilst in "range"of the wandering monster group in question,overshadow the said group and reveal the answer to the chances of them joining you.
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Xarfax111
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
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posted October 02, 2005 05:03 AM |
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...most of the advice í can see here are wrong or at least partly wrong and misleading (even the copy and pasted ones by pitsu). I wonder if noone is here that do know it better then this.
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Lord_Pc
Promising
Famous Hero
Groin-Grabingly Clever
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posted October 02, 2005 05:27 AM |
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get some rogues
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Da-da-dada-HEY-dada-da-da
Two goldfish were in their tank. One turns to the other and says, 'You man the guns, I'll drive.'
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Russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted October 03, 2005 04:56 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Leadership doesn´t influence wandering stacks.
Well, I think Leadership can be important to your army once you assimilate multiple wandering monsters. There's little use having a huge army that keeps getting slowed down by bad morale.
-Guitarguy
Well, you will usually collect a few +morale arties around the map that will only use your "misc" inventory slots, or a spirit of oppression (negates all morale effects, including the bad ones, I belive). Or you can visit one of 100000 +morale dwells before the main fight, or if you are really unlucky - simply combine similar creatures from only 2-3 towns. Some people say leadership is good, but I almost feel like crying whenever I get it.
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