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| Thread: Heroes' Stats and Skills Chances |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV |
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Shenjairo
Known Hero
Simsalabim
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posted April 28, 2006 11:33 PM |
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted April 28, 2006 11:40 PM |
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I have Excel, but it's old (from Office 95 I think). If the downloadable viewer won't let me re-order or do calculations, it won't do me much good unless I can export a delimited file.
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dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
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posted April 29, 2006 04:43 AM |
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Quote:
Also, how would I calculate getting one or more skills from a group of skills? For example with Fafner, the first four skills of Air, Archery, Armorer and Artillery. What would be the odds of getting at least one of those four, 2/4, 3/4 etc.? I don't need an answer to that specific group of skills, but a formula to use for any group of skills.
I have not gone into finding a formula and I don't think with the results given by ANSA-table we can find what you want - which indeed is very interesting. I believe the question is not fair for the table, because the table was generated in answering a specific question. And that question was "What are the chances for a skill to appear on a slot (any slot) of the hero (according to our present understanding of leveling-up and offered skill chances/exceptions) if ANSA policy is used?" This was the only thing I had in mind and the table is an answer to this question only. We have to prove things or pose new questions in order to have more answers, don't you agree? I believe we can talk about this, and ideas similar to this on the other thread, which I tend to think of more casual.
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Testing must still be used to find out how skill selection works. The ANSA table shows expected results IF we know all there is to know on skill selection. Through testing, we would have to look for results that are significantly different from the expected ANSA results.
Xarfax mentioned earlier that there may be skill groups. Some of the testing I've done shows the same thing. I haven't tested enough to say for sure, but the results look suspicious.
I totally agree with you. I accept that these numbers need testing. That way we can verify/refute our present model of leveling up. I think I've made a very clear description on the assumptions that were made in order someone receives the above numbers.
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Basically it looks like the AI is attempting to offer a variety of skills. For example it tries to create a balance between fighting skills, map skills and "other" skills like estates or learning. I haven't been able to identify how many groups there are, or which skills are in each group. But it does look like it tries to create a balance.
Also, I was discussing with Legend earlier about the difference between doing a restart and going back to the main menu and starting a new test. I've discovered that doing restarts DOES go into a loop. So test results doing restarts are not valid. However, doing restarts does create some interesting ideas for further testing, which I won't go into right now without verifying some things.
To be honest, I 've not read some very long posts (in fact I've read only first page on this thread so far and some very short posts thereafter ...), because I was against on reading them before I can think of some matters, so as to know what to expect. But the following is a promise to myself: I will read the entire thread and all tests made and we can talk about it. But not here. I think this place suits better for testing and when conclusions are made then these should be posted back here. I think my behaviour is self-explanatory of my beliefs.
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The empty set
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted April 29, 2006 10:34 AM |
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Edited by Binabik at 10:27, 04 May 2006.
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I'm currently running a test to check for special cases like Wisdom at level 6. It should check for specific skills being offered, and also skill groups. The difficult part is interpreting the data.
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dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
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posted April 29, 2006 03:10 PM |
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Edited by dimis at 21:03, 10 May 2006.
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I must admit I don't have the courage to read all Legendary posts in one day.  There are too many thoughts involved in these and first of all we have no clue what we are looking for in these in the first place. So, I am totally with Russ and Bin's proposition for starters so that we can find as many exceptions as we can regarding skill advancement. I also believe that with a large data set we can approve or refute the ANSA table presented earlier as well.
Regarding the problem of viewing the .xls file, one can use TextEdit, a program commonly used for Random Map Generators. You can find that program as well as instructions, in the "home" of ANSA results.
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The empty set
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GabyStan
Known Hero
Seeking Wisdom
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posted April 30, 2006 02:20 AM |
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Guys, I suggest all of you (potential) testers gather a certain amount of money and pay the programmer who was responsible for developing skill advancement in the game instead of wasting such enormous amounts of time. Legend's idea is great and I appreciate his already huge effort, but I tend to feel more like TC_FEAR nowadays: hero choice improves best with experience. And since in an actual random game you can't pick the exact hero(es) who came out best from all the testing, why bother? Random quantity will always play a significant part in the game, that's for sure.
A single example: Sir Mullich. I played him as main 3 or 4 times before, and he got crappy skills each time. Today, however, he got Tactics first and Earth second, which pretty much meant 50% of the MUST skills accomplished. And I prolly NEVER will turn down basic Log/Offence/Tactics/Armorer hoping I will get Earth next time instead (or whatever).
Testing makes much more sense for tactical/combat results. Just an opinion, no offence to any of you.
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Your worst enemy is... yourself.
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Zsa
Famous Hero
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posted April 30, 2006 02:58 AM |
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last 3 games I had with mulich, he got almost the same thing, 2 times identical leveling  . Log on first lvl, tactics on second, offense on third, air on fourth. What more can I ask of him .
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"You sound like zsa who only plays the game on forums" - Russ
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted April 30, 2006 07:16 AM |
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Gaby:
To me it's not really finding anything useful that's important. It's the challenge of figuring out how it works, like solving a hard puzzle.
um....well I admit, sometimes being bored has something to do with it also.
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GabyStan
Known Hero
Seeking Wisdom
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posted May 02, 2006 07:21 PM |
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Actually, I can understand this, because I also spent hundreds of hours only making rertarts/reloads during my Heroes 2 times, the reason being not boredom, but ambition. Boredom came in playing the game normally, for about 4 years.
About the seed you Binabik were talking about, I have also noticed (in Heroes 2) that if I make slightly different things I can get to a point in day 7 when it will be "week of..." and by doing so being able to have a +5 bonus to a certain creature. But no idea either how this works exactly.
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Your worst enemy is... yourself.
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HeymlicH
Famous Hero
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posted January 28, 2007 06:04 PM |
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Quote:
To quote myself
Quote:
If you don't get it randomly and always turn it down, you will be offered both wisdom and magic at level 12.
This only happens if you're offered two new skills. If another skill can be upgraded, you'll get wisdom only.
This is definitely wrong. I just had a game where I leveled a knight as main hero and turned down all offers of a magic school (was offered air all the time and don't have haste) and also didn't take wisdom. I was a bit relying on level 12, thinking I will be offered a magic school and if I don't like it I can still take wisdom. What happened was: I was offered tactics and diplomacy
I played this in AB, version 2.2.
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maretti
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted January 28, 2007 06:35 PM |
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What do you think "If you don't get it randomly" means?
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck
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HeymlicH
Famous Hero
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posted January 28, 2007 07:25 PM |
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oops ... I should read more carefully I'm not sure if I was offered wisdom more than once - maybe it was. I was offered a magic school "randomly".
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Fortress_fan
Disgraceful
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posted January 28, 2007 07:47 PM |
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This things annoys me: Why cannot Death Knights learn Estates? Yes it is a crap skill, but I don't se any reason for forbiding them to learn it (like leadership increases morale which undead are immune to). What is the reason for it?
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FireSpirit
Famous Hero
with warm hands
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posted January 29, 2007 12:00 AM |
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Quote:
This things annoys me: Why cannot Death Knights learn Estates? Yes it is a crap skill, but I don't se any reason for forbiding them to learn it (like leadership increases morale which undead are immune to). What is the reason for it?
Maybe they (game makers) thought Death Knights shouldn't get to learn it because they are dead, thus having no possessions like estates. 
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