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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Best Second level Creature...
Thread: Best Second level Creature... [ This thread is 9 pages long: 1 (2) 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ]
Adela
Adela

Tavern Dweller
posted October 05, 2001 05:41 AM

1.Battle Drawf
2.Marksmen
3.Harpy Hags
4.Storm Elementals
5.Obsidan Gargorles
6.Magogs
7.Lizard Warriors
8.Wolf Raiders
9.Zombies

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ACC
ACC


Adventuring Hero
Enemy of the Efreet
posted October 06, 2001 07:49 PM

marksmen is the best, no contest, battle dwarves are jus too slow
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"If you fight a battle and you flee,
Another day you'll live to see,
but if you gain the victory,
a mighty hero you shall be."

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Gimmickless
Gimmickless


Promising
Known Hero
Cannon Maker
posted October 06, 2001 08:35 PM
Edited By: Gimmickless on 6 Oct 2001

Lizardmen vs. Wolf Raiders

Sure, they don't fly and they don't shoot, but that double hit ala Crusader can get pretty nasty.  On an open battlefield with base stats, the Raiders can make it to the Lizardmen in two turns in most cases.  100 Lizardmen vs. 100 Wolf Raiders, the Lizardmen do (calculating max damage every time) 150 in the first turn (if the Raiders wait the first turn), killing 15 even in the first turn. Second turn, 85 Wolf Raiders attack, doing 391 damage the first strike (after figuring in attack vs. defense), killing 27 Lizardmen the first strike. That's 85 vs. 73 before the SECOND strike. With melee penalty and conterattacks figuring in, Wolf Raiders beat Lizard Warriors one-on-one.

Now, you were saying about Raiders being less useful than Lizardmen?
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StormWarning
StormWarning


Promising
Famous Hero
Archmage of Thunder
posted October 06, 2001 10:53 PM
Edited By: StormWarning on 6 Oct 2001

It's quite simple. Wolf Raiders are main targets early because people want to stop that double-hit. They have so few hit points that it's easy to Hypnotize them and direct that double-hit exactly where your opponent doesn't want it, or just kill them off (for every 2 LWs a spell would kill, you take out 3 WRaiders). In other words, if something has such an attractive ability that it becomes a main target, it better be able to survive being a target. Wolf Raiders have such an ability and won't last long. That's why they're not that useful. Marksmen, too, suffer from that characteristic, but at least they can do their job a long way away so it's tougher to wipe them out before their special becomes nasty. Lizardmen, on the other hand, are never regarded as the main targets - those are MGs if you're not Necro or Dragonflies or Hydras if you are. So they are much more effective just because of the fact that nobody really concentrates on wiping them out before they can do anything.

Gimmickless, I think you were using the old (pre-SoD) Lizard Warrior stats, because with max damage with SoD stats they kill 26 at long range on the first shot.
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attila
attila


Known Hero
Young Warrior
posted January 29, 2002 03:52 PM

here mine are

1. Storm Elemental
2. Marksmen
3. Wolf Raider
4. Harpy Hag
5. Magog
6. Battle Dwarve
7. Obsiane Gargole
8. Lizard Men
9. Zombie
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Attila

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The_Prophet
The_Prophet


Adventuring Hero
Protector of Virgin Goats
posted January 31, 2002 05:31 AM

Marksmen. Shoot the hags down before they get to you, and if they do get to you, they'll just fly back away, in which case you just shoot them twice more...
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An army of foes die the same as a single enemy, it's just more fun killing them.

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sos
sos


Known Hero
posted January 31, 2002 03:56 PM
Edited By: sos on 31 Jan 2002

lol

Have you ever had a battle where you had only 1 stack of Marksmen and your opponent had only 1 stack of Harpy Hags?

I dont rank Marksmen very high. They die very easy and they need protection to be of any use. Heck, even a stack of lizard warriors (which many rank at the bottom) will beat the same amount of Marksmen, because they are more durable. Yes, that's right - Lizard Warrior is a better shooter than Marksman!

Storm elements are the best by a long shot. Hags come next.

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Destro23
Destro23


Promising
Famous Hero
Keeper of GrongGrong
posted February 05, 2002 09:39 PM

I had a battle last night I commited by mistake..

53 marksmen ( on valeska ) which of course in this case is huge.. on grass so marksmen are running very fast.. this was week 2...

I chained my army to the wrong hero in transfer and attacked a horde (4 stacks of 23) ogres...

Well thanks to morale, specialty and speed those ogres are dead and my marksmen walked away untouched..

Show me wystan and some lizards men do that


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attila
attila


Known Hero
Young Warrior
posted February 05, 2002 09:44 PM

sos what u been drinking Lizard men arnt better than marksmen well aslong as stats are close
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Attila

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Moon
Moon


Adventuring Hero
posted February 06, 2002 01:43 AM

Quote:
sos what u been drinking Lizard men arnt better than marksmen well aslong as stats are close


Nope, but LizardWARRIORS are by far. Cheaper, 15 HP, 5 Defense more. Only 2-5 Damage compared to 4-6(with both shoots).
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AndiAngelsla...
AndiAngelslayer


Disgraceful
Famous Hero
posted February 06, 2002 02:14 AM

not 1on1 counting, the value for the army, and there harpy hags are worth almost nothing, since cant even take retaliation, marksmen can be of huge value, so can wolf raiders, lizard warriors surely cant
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sos
sos


Known Hero
posted February 06, 2002 05:08 AM
Edited By: sos on 6 Feb 2002

Marksmen vs Lizard Warriors

Lets look at the overall picture:
Marksmen have a huge damage potential (average of 5 for 2 shots), but are very fragile (defense only 3) and their damage drops to 1.25 in melee.
Lizards do less damage (3.5), but will last much longer with their defense of 8 and 15 hp.

If you face slow troops marksmen are better, if you face fast troops or shooters then lizards are better.

Marksmen need protection, they are entirely useless in melee. Everyone knows that and in a real battle between heroes what usually happens is that marksmen never shoot more than once (often with range penalty). They are primary spell target also, and for 2 lizards you will lose 3 marksmen.


And for hags - they can be considered a (no melee) shooter with a range of 9 (10 with their hero, 11 underground). Hasted they can cross the battlefield and go back untouched. Not bad at all. Andi is the first person I know to complain about no retaliation specialty lol

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Thunder
Thunder


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted February 06, 2002 03:19 PM

Marksman
Attack: 6
Defense: 3
Damage: 2-3 (average 2.5)
Health: 10
Speed: 6
Cost per unit: 150 gold
Growth: 18
Specials: Double shot (making damage range from 4 to 6), melee penalty

Harpy Hag
Attack: 6
Defense: 6
Damage: 1-4 (average 2.5)
Health: 14
Speed: 9
Cost per unit: 170 gold
Growth: 16
Specials: Swooping attack, no retalition

Let see what happens if there is 18 Marksmen and 16 Harpy Hags in the neutral ground without heroes fighting each other.

Round 1
Harpies wait.
Marksmen shoot doing (5*18*.5)45 damage. 13 Harpy Hags remain (Health 11).
Harpies move.

Round 2
Harpy Hags attack (or would you rather just move them next to the Marksmen without attacking and to see the Marksmen moving away on their own turn? That fight would never end.) doing (13*2.5*1.15)37 damage. 15 Marksmen remain (health 3).
Marksmen shoot doing 75 damage. 8 Harpy Hags remain (health 6)

So, do anyone know who will win already? Nope? Marksmen.
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AndiAngelsla...
AndiAngelslayer


Disgraceful
Famous Hero
posted February 06, 2002 03:21 PM

i dont see it that way, 10 hp vs 15, i see it with the experience of online battles, and i never saw a battle where the defense of a L2 unit means much, a L2 unit has 1 of 2 things to do: take retaliation with moving fast, or deal some damage, a lizard can do nothing of that, they the last thing you buy out with fortress usually
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AndiAngelsla...
AndiAngelslayer


Disgraceful
Famous Hero
posted February 06, 2002 03:24 PM

lol your question shows you play vs comps thunder, of course you move the hags to marksmen, and the marksmen are lost
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Thunder
Thunder


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted February 06, 2002 03:45 PM

Wrong andi.

You didn't read the lines or you just didn't understand.

Harpy Hags move next to the Marksmen (without attacking, if they attack they fly back to their original position). Marksmen move from the Harpy Hags. No casualties for neither of the sides.

Next round: same happens again. No casualties.

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sos
sos


Known Hero
posted February 06, 2002 04:44 PM

Hehe Thunder, you will never have this battle in practice. So let me tell you what happens when my hero with 16 hags meet your hero with 18 marksmen. He casts lightning bolt doing 180 points of damage and kills all your marksmen lol.

Andi, marksmen are only good for 1 thing - to do some damage, if let to fire, if not with range penalty, if not kiled right away with spells. Almost useless in siege where their damage is 1/4 due to range and wall penalties. Hags on the other hand are perfect for siege.

Lizards do less damage (70%), but last much longer (not that it matters much as you said). Overall, Marksmen are better shooter, but hardly a better unit, and definetely the difference between the two is less than from rank 2 to rank 8 for a second level unit.


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Thunder
Thunder


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted February 06, 2002 07:01 PM

And my Marksmen resist that spell and my hero casts Ice Bolt on your Harpy Hags and Marksmen finish the job. Which was the reason why there wasn't heroes in test.

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sos
sos


Known Hero
posted February 06, 2002 08:39 PM

My point was that 1 on 1 battles between creatures doesn't mean much, because 1) you will rarely have 1 on 1 battles anyway, and 2) there is at least one hero involved in any battle, and you know what that means
1 on 1 lizards will beat both Hags and Marksmen, does it make them better than them? I don't know

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RedSoxFan3
RedSoxFan3


Admirable
Legendary Hero
Fan of Red Sox
posted February 07, 2002 03:16 AM

Marksmen and Harpy Hags are the best, but Wolf Raiders are far superior if you are careful not to lose too many. If you are careless or miscalculate, then after 3 or 4 weeks you might have 10-20 of them instead of about 50.
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