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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Best Second level Creature...
Thread: Best Second level Creature... This thread is 9 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 · «PREV / NEXT»
EliteLeader
EliteLeader


Adventuring Hero
posted July 06, 2007 11:33 AM

I think LordAzamath deserves a nice lil' red star for this
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Back to back they faced each other, Drew their swords and shot each other"

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DragonLord3000
DragonLord3000


Known Hero
Romanian flamethrower
posted July 06, 2007 05:34 PM

Wolf riders always die quickly in the battle,zombies are a sort of cannon fodder,harpy hags are good but could have been better,marksmen fire twice which is good,lizard warriors are useless,battle dwarfs have magic resistance which helps,obsidian gargoyeles stink,and magogs stink worse.Storm elementals is #1
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SwampLord
SwampLord


Supreme Hero
Lord of the Swamp
posted July 06, 2007 06:00 PM

Uh dude, did you look at his chart? Lizards came in first. And yes, I agree, he should get a red star. Storm Elemental isn't there because it's not a real creature. It's a Level 3 pretending to be a Level 1.
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DragonLord3000
DragonLord3000


Known Hero
Romanian flamethrower
posted July 06, 2007 09:06 PM

well lizard warriors can beat the other level 2 creatures but aren't that effective in a large scale battle.Their damage is almost insegnificant
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Binabik
Binabik


Responsible
Legendary Hero
posted July 07, 2007 01:43 AM

It's nice to see LordAzamath taking initiative and doing tests.  But the results need to be valid.

The ONLY right way to do tests like this is to play hotseat and play both sides the best way possible. The best way possible means using different stack splits and using different tactics during combat. With some creature combinations it's obvious from the start which side will win. With other creature combinations it can be very difficult to find the right split and tactic to guarantee a win.

----------------------------------
Were the tests on neutral terrain?

Was it tested with one/both creatures on native terrain?
(if both creatures are on native, it might favor one creature over another)

Were the hero stats set to zero? (simply using 2 of the same hero type can give invalid results)

If creatures are the same speed, was it tested with both sides attacking first (on map)?

Were there any hero specialties that might affect the results?

Were creature specialties taken into account?
----------------------------------

I started doing the tests and got different results. I've only done Marksmen so far. I used 2 weeks of creatures with castle built. (let's pretend I had archers built week one)

Marksmen vs Zombies - Marksmen win
Marksmen vs Magogs - Marksmen win
Marksmen vs Dwarf - Marksmen win
The above are the same results that LG got

The below are different than LGs results
Marksmen vs Lizards - Marksmen wins
Marksmen vs Wolves - Marksmen wins


Marksmen vs Gargs
Marksmen vs Harpy
These need more testing. I haven't found a combination of stack split and tactics that guarantees a win for either side. This probably gives the advantage to the attacker because they can see the enemy split and adjust their own split for best results.



Of course the biggest problem with testing for "best level X" creatures is that creatures are not used that way in a real game. All creatures are part of the overall army. If a creature is a good fit it the army, they are effectively better than a creature that doesn't fit well in the army.


Quote:
Wolfraiders smack the lizzards I bet.
I haven't tested it yet, but I think the lizards will win if you use single lizards to guard main stack. The 2 hexes for wolves is a big disadvantage here.


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maretti
maretti


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted July 07, 2007 02:10 AM

True, LordAzamath deserves a red star.
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lordazamath
lordazamath


Hired Hero
is dwelling in the tavern
posted July 07, 2007 10:41 AM
Edited by lordazamath at 10:47, 07 Jul 2007.

Well, Binabik

I made tests on dirt. Necro home terrain, but zombies lost all the battles so it doesn't count. Population of two weeks w/o castle/citadel/other.

And are you using any kind of wog. If so then I believe Lizards won't do so good. The problem that marksmen got in SoD against lizard warriors, was that they ran out of shots. But Lizards didn't. They could shoot when marksmen were coming to get them and in meele lizards are better. If I have time I will do that battle again andshow the flow.

The heroes had 0011 skills
I can't play hotseat coz there is something wrong with my computer
Both creatures were only one stack.
I tried to use heroes which had totally useless specialties
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Binabik
Binabik


Responsible
Legendary Hero
posted July 07, 2007 11:50 AM
Edited by Binabik at 11:50, 07 Jul 2007.

I wonder why you are getting different results. I used 2 weeks of creatures with castle built, but that shouldn't make a difference because the ratio is the same. I used 36 Marksmen and 32 Lizards.

The Marksmen won no matter what kind of split I did. And they never ran out of shots. With some splits the Marksmen came close to running out, but there would have only been 1-2 lizards left if they did. If your marksmen are running out, they are probably wasting shots. (for example, why shoot at a single lizard with 1 HP when you can kill 2 lizards in a different stack)


edit: no, I don't have WOG installed.


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lordazamath
lordazamath


Hired Hero
is dwelling in the tavern
posted July 07, 2007 12:03 PM
Edited by lordazamath at 12:53, 07 Jul 2007.

I had 1/2 of your creatures and marksmen did just fewer dmg. to lizards and fewer lizards died. So there were more at the end, although when marksmen ran out of shots, there were more marksmen.

So if they don't run out of shots marksmen always win

EDIT: If there is a balance so the marksman don't deal so much damage, and therefore can run out of shots (by chance my tests were),but there are so much that lizards can survive, then lizard warriors will win. Ammo cart will be a certain death to lizard warrioirs though
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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted July 07, 2007 12:14 PM

Suggestions for red stars (ironic or serious) should be posted in the Library feedback thread, not in the thread itself. I will clean those posts soon.
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lordazamath
lordazamath


Hired Hero
is dwelling in the tavern
posted July 07, 2007 02:41 PM
Edited by lordazamath at 14:43, 07 Jul 2007.

Strange, very strange

I made some tests again.........and got completly confuzed......

Maybe you, Binabik, should try 18vs18 too, but this is what I got.

Cuthbert was holding 18 Marksman and Adelaide 18 Lizard Warriors. Skills were both 0011. Sec.Skills were only wisdoms. Spellbooks and artifacts removed.
Marksmen are faster so they started. Battles were done on sand.

-------1st round-------
Marksmen do 21 dmg - 1 Lizard Warrior perishes
Marksmen do 21 dmg - 1 Lizard Warrior perishes
Lizard Warrior do 36 dmg - 3 Marksmen perish
-----------------------
Marksmen left 15/Lizard Warriors left 16

-------2nd round-------
Marksmen do 17 dmg - 2 Lizard Warrior perish
Marksmen do 18 dmg - 1 Lizard Warrior perishes
Lizard Warrior do 25 dmg - 3 Marksmen perish
-----------------------
Marksmen left 12/Lizard Warriors left 13

-------3rd round-------
Marksmen do 14 dmg - 1 Lizard Warrior perishes
Marksmen do 14 dmg - 1 Lizard Warrior perishes
Lizard Warrior do 23 dmg - 2 Marksmen perish
-----------------------
Marksmen left 10/Lizard Warriors left 14

-------4th round-------
Marksmen do 12 dmg - 0 Lizard Warrior perishes
Marksmen do 11 dmg - 1 Lizard Warrior perishes
Lizard Warrior do 21 dmg - 2 Marksmen perish
-----------------------
Marksmen left 8/Lizard Warriors left 13

Hmm. No need to type more. Lizards were lucky enough in first strike to do almost full dmg, but if they weren't - the result would have been the same I think. This battle was done even w/o waiting for marksmen to run out of shots.

Don't know what happened, coz the lizards should not be so overwhelmingly better. Maybe Binabik could post HIS battle here too.

I'm suprised.

Marksmen:                       Lizard Warrior
Attack - 6                      Attack - 6
Defence - 3                     Defence - 8
Damage -  2-3                   Damage - 2-5
Health - 10                     Health - 15
Shots - 24                      Shots - 24
Speed - 6                       Speed - 5
Special - Shoots twice          Special - none

Growth with SOD - 9             Growth with SOD - 9


EDIT:Why did you use 32 Lizard Warriors not 36? SOD made Lizards better. They should have growth of 9 not 8
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SwampLord
SwampLord


Supreme Hero
Lord of the Swamp
posted July 07, 2007 04:15 PM

Also I believe lizards have more HP then Marksmen. Wolf Raiders would beat them though, because you wait, and then you're standing next to them after you go twice in a row.

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yasmiel
yasmiel


Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
posted July 07, 2007 05:50 PM

Again, I see that this is about 1v1s so the thread name is not exactly accurate...

I would prefer marksmen to lizards, simply because they are more damaging, and thats what is important for archers imho. If someone gets near, they are both dead anyway.

Only way i would rank rank marksman below lizard is in archer vs archer battles... and exactly that type of battle was presented in this thread.

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Binabik
Binabik


Responsible
Legendary Hero
posted July 10, 2007 12:08 AM

@LordAzamath: You were right about the lizards vs marksmen. I used the wrong number of lizards. I used the ROE manual. I had the other lizard stats corrected with the expansion stats, but didn't realize the growth rate changed.

It's possible for the marksmen to win without many losses, but it's easy for the lizards to counter it by splitting. The only real way for markemen to win is if there's a single stack of lizards and the marksmen split into a main stack and some one unit stacks and move the single units next to the lizards.


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lordazamath
lordazamath


Hired Hero
is dwelling in the tavern
posted July 12, 2007 11:43 AM

Overlooked

Now the different results make sense, yes.
BTW if I say that the lizard warriors are the best - it's not so true at all. I was thinking about it an came out with this.

Lizard warriors may beat the marksmen 1v1, but because complete Castle army is imo better than Fortress', than marksmen may again prove more useful than lizard warriors.
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ckukner
ckukner

Tavern Dweller
posted July 22, 2007 05:06 PM

well I guess 5 additional defence of Lizard made Lizards kick Marksmen's azs.  But again 1v1 proves nothing. So i would go with Marksmen because they have double chance to have luck. And they do more damage

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EliteLeader
EliteLeader


Adventuring Hero
posted July 23, 2007 06:15 PM

I totally agree its not practical to only look at 1v1 battles I think marksmen will prove more useful an a large scale even though lizard warriors are stronger.

On the other hand its still fun to know which is the strongest

I cant make up my mind xP
____________
"One fine day in the middle of the night, Two dead men got up to fight
Back to back they faced each other, Drew their swords and shot each other"

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SwampLord
SwampLord


Supreme Hero
Lord of the Swamp
posted July 23, 2007 06:16 PM

The whole point of this thread is 1v1. I agree that with extenuating circumstances, some become better or worse. But since the thread is about a 1v1 basis, it's kinda pointless, as we can make arguments like that for almost every creature.
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They can take my swamp, they can take my town, but they will never take my FREEDOM!

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EliteLeader
EliteLeader


Adventuring Hero
posted July 23, 2007 06:23 PM
Edited by EliteLeader at 20:54, 24 Jul 2007.

Well youre wrong lol...

Thread name is not ranged level 2 1v1 but Best Second level Creature...

Edit: we just kinda got off-topic
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"One fine day in the middle of the night, Two dead men got up to fight
Back to back they faced each other, Drew their swords and shot each other"

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sheensher
sheensher


Known Hero
and Slipknot FAn
posted July 24, 2007 08:06 PM

Fav. gargoyles, harpy hags and air elemental
Bad. zombie, dwarfs and other slow creatures

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