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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Heroes 3 Town Rating -DUNGEON-
Thread: Heroes 3 Town Rating -DUNGEON- This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT»
angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted August 31, 2009 09:19 PM

I really like the effort you have put in both of your posts. Many usefull and interesting facts on one hand, but some really "bad" advices on the other hand.

All in all, I tend to give you a reward (quality point) for your first post, but only if you do me ONE favour:

Delete this part of your post:
Quote:
You first goal will be to build your Capitol, (unless the map that you play is outrageous rich).
You are blessed if you get it at the end of the first week, but in average you won't get it until the start or mid of week two.


This is the statement which makes me unable to hand out a reward

Before you answer, please read this thread first.

When you have read it, decide yourself if you want to delete that mentioned part
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 31, 2009 09:50 PM

Dungeon is the town I'd pick on any contest map I had no information of. It's the most versatile town that works with every hero on every map type, and depending on the situation you can try a vast array of variations. I'd say that you for every map and difficulty level at hand you may find a better town than Dungeon, but you will always have a play with Dungeon.

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Lumske_Beaver
Lumske_Beaver


Adventuring Hero
posted August 31, 2009 11:08 PM

Quote:
You first goal will be to build your Capitol, (unless the map that you play is outrageous rich).
You are blessed if you get it at the end of the first week, but in average you won't get it until the start or mid of week two.


I actually have been reading this thread before and usually onless the map is very poor, I buy creatures before money buildings, but when I'm playing with Dungeon, I seem to do something wrong when I'm doing this. I often have tried to run out ressources and money using this strategy, but I suppose that it is because of my chaining isn't that good.

Another problem is that its impossible to get dragons first week, and it is also impossible to get both dragons and capitol week 2. With most other towns you can have capitol and 7 level creature week 2. The map has to be very rich if you have to wait getting capitol to week three, or at least you need some gold mines and a second and hopefully third town also.

I want you to delete that part and I of course I understand that it is a much more valueable to have a great army than to have many money, but to get dragons before capitol in dungeon is a tough job. I would be grateful if you can explain me a bit more detailed how to avoid to ran out of money and ressources using this strategy with dungeon.

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Lumske_Beaver
Lumske_Beaver


Adventuring Hero
posted August 31, 2009 11:23 PM

Quote:
You are blessed if you get it at the end of the first week, but in average you won't get it until the start or mid of week two.


Of course it is even not possible to get capitol before week 2 unless you start with town hall. My bad. Please (every body who see this it) forget that seentence, I may have been sleeping or something!

This is definately preferable
Instead of getting capitol??? I would buy as many creatures as possible first week plus citadel and caslte. Start of second week go for city hall. Then build up to manticores day 5 week 2. Day 6 mage guild level 2, and Dragons on day seven. Get capitol as fast as possible week 3. This seems a bit more intellegent hehe.

Don't know why I haven't been thinking about this before

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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted August 31, 2009 11:36 PM

Capitol costs 15k extra without increasing creature growth buildings counted (citadel, castle), because you build city hall and capitol. It gives you 3k more gold daily than if you would have a townhall only.

Now think about how long you will need to gather 15k gold on a poor map.

Now think about what map objects you could fight with your dragons, mantis and minotaurs. Medusa stores give good money, naga banks even more.

A naga bank, especially a full one, will be hard to fight against with harpies and troggies only. But with the troops mentioned above, not a big deal. And you get 12k gold as reward.

A full crypt (10 vamps) can be done easily...gives 5k gold.

So if you have a bunch full of heroes (of course this won't work if you only have 1 or 2 heroes running around!!), you can gather 20-30k gold even on a poor map. You just need to visit 3-5 map objects I mentioned above.

Most important advice for heroes players:
Creatures ALWAYS give more money than buildings...ALWAYS.

And they additional give experience points, what most buildings lack of..
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted August 31, 2009 11:45 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 23:56, 31 Aug 2009.

Angelito forgets that a lot of people can't fight without dragons. He also forgets that lot of people pick experience instead of money. He also forgets that lot of people play with a main and a secondary hero.
And because of that any thread about towns, fights, rating must be combined with the knowledge of a huge and diverse database, otherwise people can't hear the truth. (am I speaking like the Goaul'd Elodin here?)

You will be amazed to find how many swarms you can defeat week one with lots troglodytes, harpies and eyes and proper heros. If you manage to have manticores day 6 then you can take the shooters too. Don't be crazy about dragons, manticores are enough to clean 80% of the neutrals.

By sacrificing all your money and ress for building money first week, you will be rich second week but vulnerable and annoyed, because you will have nothing to do.

Now, just think: if you do at least 1 battle everyday for a chest/crypt/dwarven/medusas and pick it that means 1000-2000+ gold and thats the income of a city hall for which you spent 7000. I am not saying that capitol is useless, far from it, but money will not replace armies. All depends of the threat you face. And on most maps, an experienced player is able to recruit 8 heros day one and still get the dragons week 2 day 1.

@Angelito: oops, posts crossed, sorry for quoting you
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Casihasi
Casihasi


Known Hero
posted September 01, 2009 10:02 AM
Edited by Casihasi at 10:04, 01 Sep 2009.

Yea many build money first because they are not aware of monster stack strengths, and the strength of their own army.

It is quiet simple, you use your starting army to gather gold/resources, remove blocks to open up new parts of the map (specially on the roads), and to develop a main hero.

If you build gold buildings first, you will run out of critters to fight with. That means less gold to pick up from the map (randoms always have free gold stacks, so killing 1 single blocker unit might give you more than an entire week from your town with a city hall..).

"Capitol first builders" usually never played heroes competitive.
No experienced online player will build money first if the map is not *very very* poor.
Its also the reason why they will never beat an online player. Zero chance, the time/armies lost can never be made up on normal maps.


Now my take on dungeon...
it can be either a tough town to play with, or a very powerful one...games with dungeon are rarely going the same way.

Resource costs for buildings are high, and units are vulnerable (Manticores, Minos, Medusas). It requires some tactical fighting skills.

On the plus side we usually have a good starting army, Trogs come in masses. Harpies make for good scouting speed. Eyes are obviously always helpful.
That is combined with maybe the best hero class in the game: Overlords. Gunnar is exceptional, so is Shakti for a fast start.
Others come with useful skills like tactics or offense.

The main goal week1 is always to gather as many gold and resources as possible, for the expensive buildings.
You usually want manticores week 1, for a possible Scorpicore power stack week 2 on speed 11.
Minos are good too, if there is a dwelling on the map it can be better to use a Mino power stack rather than Mantis/Scorps.

If there is a dragon dwelling you are often already a winner, combined with portal of summoning this can result in a stack of Black Dragons in the end that is just unbeatable due to magic immunity.

I think the most important advice for dungeom is: NEVER take a low dwelling on the map before you scouted most of your area!!!

So dungeon is usually a very fun town to play with. Many possibilities to become strong.
But it can also be tricky one, specially for unexperienced players.
Personally i rate them high.

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Geltnim
Geltnim


Hired Hero
posted September 01, 2009 10:38 AM

All units of dungeon are, without an exception, very powerful, to an extent I could think of dungeon as somewhat overpowered. Medusa Queens are among the most efficient "medium level" shooters (Evil eyes deal about the same damage, but have more shots? ) Minotaurs are arguably the best 5th unit in the game, and Black Dragons, though their attack is surpassed by archangel's , are simply a hell for the opponent.

Buildings are impressive, too. Mana vortex doubles your spell points, some "academy" thing teaches you +1000 experience, you can summon mighty creatures from outer dwellings...



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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 01, 2009 11:57 AM

Well.
Let me repeat the sermon that things depend on DIFF LEVEL and conditions you play with.
While the Solo-players have not much of an idea about what is going on when battling a human opponent, the online players tend to dismiss the fact that the game may be played with different rules. Try for example a random map (and therefore unknown) on impossible difficulty with low turn turn time. This will play vastly different from a known specific onlineplay map started on advanced difficulty or even map-specific starting values.

So general statement are too general for the game as such.

For Dungeon creatures, I think that most are on the weaker side, with the exception of both Red and Black Dragons, that don't need to be discussed.
Trogs come in huge quantities initially, which is their redeeming factor. All in all I'd rate them medium.
Hags are an excellent unit.
Evil Eyes suck, as soon as you have to have an eye on money - they are too expensive. Moreover they don't deal enough damage, especially as a shooter. Frankly, it's a unit that lacks in paying dividends when bought early.
Medusae are basically a unit that has the shooting ability as an additional bonus, but in reality, because of your special, you want them to hit hand to hand, really, but then they are fragile. They are not bad, but good is something else.
Minos, yup, good, but there are better level 5 units out there, that's for sure. Of course, for Dungeon they deal a significant part of the damage.
Scorps are in principle a good unit, but with some "buts" attached: too fragile; this is the most important one, because due to the special you would like them to make first hits on dangerous stacks, so it would be nice if they could stand more of a counter punch in case the special doesn't trigger; regular damage isn't all too excessive, which is a general problem of Dungeon:

LOW DAMAGE OUTPUT. If you take the unit levels 1-6 you will see that Dungeon not only has the lowest total of HIT POINTS, but the lowest total DAMAGE capabilities as well, marginally redeemed by the fact that 2 units have the ability to "incapacitate" oposing stacks.

With Dungeon you have a strange mix of units that can all fight by themselves, so-to-speak; a bunch of individual critters, which makes for a lot of options to go in the beginning. However, this comes not without a price: even though the line-up is technically good, and even impressive with 2 grunts, 2 Fliers, 2 shooters and 1 hybrid shooter-flier, in reality the 2 shooters are more of a shooter-grunt hybrid. Biggest difficulty in my opinion is, when looking at the full Dungeon army and with an eye on an all-out battle, the synergy between units, since a battle is more than an individual slaughter, obviously. Finding the right role for each of the units in a specific battle is not that easy, carefully spoken, since with Dungeon every advantage seem to come with a disadvantage and vice versa, and the art is to judge them against each other and make the most of the advantages.

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Casihasi
Casihasi


Known Hero
posted September 01, 2009 10:05 PM

Quote:


With Dungeon you have a strange mix of units that can all fight by themselves, so-to-speak; a bunch of individual critters, which makes for a lot of options to go in the beginning. However, this comes not without a price: even though the line-up is technically good, and even impressive with 2 grunts, 2 Fliers, 2 shooters and 1 hybrid shooter-flier, in reality the 2 shooters are more of a shooter-grunt hybrid. Biggest difficulty in my opinion is, when looking at the full Dungeon army and with an eye on an all-out battle, the synergy between units, since a battle is more than an individual slaughter, obviously. Finding the right role for each of the units in a specific battle is not that easy, carefully spoken, since with Dungeon every advantage seem to come with a disadvantage and vice versa, and the art is to judge them against each other and make the most of the advantages.


Hmm not sure i agree.
Dungeon is good for both out-waiting the opponent on the first turn, and/or to strike fast.
There is no hiding from Blacks, and Scorps paralyze can be deadly.
You have hard hitters, and good units to let the opponent come to you.
And they are obviously good for town sieges.

Fully built up this army is a real threat for all others)
But they need a might hero more than most other towns, the way to go here is usually attack attack attack.

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Lumske_Beaver
Lumske_Beaver


Adventuring Hero
posted September 01, 2009 10:09 PM bonus applied by angelito on 02 Sep 2009.

Dungeon is a very good town for lots of reasons

First of all you have a town with three flyers, two ranged units and two-foot soldiers, which makes it one of the best for siege attack.
However you are in good position too in siege defense because of the durability of your ranged units, a very good foot soldier, (Minotaurs), and a good help with the Harpy Hags loop attack. This allows you too to be aggressive in the battle in most cases, allowing more double breath attacks for your Dragons, and a fast neutralization of the enemy ranged units, (specially good if you have Tactic advantage).

Other reason is that you have one of the best 7th level creatures in the game, the Black Dragon. You won't have an easy time to get them in your town but when you get them they are the most important unit for you. Their magic resistance and their double attack make them quite useful for quite wide diffirent tactics.

More reasons are the special buildings of your town, which are perhaps the best of all towns.
I like especially the Mana Vortex, very useful for both might and magic heroes. The Artifact Merchants can be a good way to supply your heroes with needed artifacts, but later in the game, (because you will need lots of money and resources at the start), and the Portal of Summoning can be great if you find a good extra town dwelling, specially if we talk about Black Dragons, (though I confess I don't use it very often because it's not usual to find these dwellings).

The last reason is heroes, Overlords and Warlocks are both very interesting heroes classes with different tactics to follow but both can become very successful.
But the most important is that the individual heroes no matter if they are might or magic are great, with great specialities, good starting skills and secondary skill development, and good starting armies.

No matter which hero you choose every of them are at least good as secondary heroes, with diffirent skills that can be very useful, (+350 Gold, Scouting, spells which can be taught to your heroes...).

Now I'll comment the units of the town:

Troglodytes/Infernal Troglodytes

They are just average as level one unit. Useful in early game especially if you start with Shakti who possibly have throng of them to start with. Their blind immunity are great, but since thse units are quite week and nearly never a thread it is quite superflouos for these units.

Harpies/Harpy Hags

Good when upgraded. In fact this is one of the priority upgrades in the first week because you will need them to clear mines in company of Trogs. With the upgrade they gain most of all speed, and a useful loop attack, (but sometimes it's not so useful).
These and Trogs must be the one you use in the first two weeks to clear mines, so when fighting against ranged units, you better use them by splitting them in some stacks, one or two with some good numbers of them, and the rest, (two or three more stacks should be enough), with just one of them to get next to the ranged unit and not letting them use it's ranged attack.
Later in the game they will be useful in siege attack and defense because their special attack, but only if you have high numbers of them, or they won't do enough damage. In fact, that's their big problem, they make very low damage. Blessing them is good if you have the spell, (and be afraid of curse because it will make them to do insignificant damage).

Beholders/Evil Eyes

These are good three level units but they are very very expensive. There's no big deal to upgarde them fast as they are quite good even without the upgrade.
I don't buy them in the early game just because they are so expensive and they make very low damage.
In fact they are half way between a foot soldier and a ranged unit, because they are very tough, and have no melee penalty, but make very low damage.
They are just really useful for long battles because they will suffer and you will still have some of them surviving, or when you have lost of them, because they will do a good damage then. I prefer not to buy them until week three at least, until then they can be a great defense for your town if an enemy hero wants to attack you. Bless is again a good spell for them.

Medusas/Medusa Queens

Don't buy them if not upgraded because they will get without shots too fast.
This is other of the priority upgrades, because they are one of the best units in your town and you need them using their ranged attack all they are able. Other tough ranged unit without melee penalty, which won't die easily. In addition they have a valuable skill, (petrifying), which can be very useful specially knowing that they have no melee penalty. So if you can't make a ranged attack don't worry to use their melee attack. But be careful when attacking higher level units, don't always confide in the petrifying skill, as it won't show up very often. Don't risk them too much and attack high level units preferably if they can't counterstrike.

Minotaurs/Minotaur Kings

This is your second best unit and your great foot soldier. They can even face stacks with higher levels, have a good speed and very good attack/defense stats.
They will have extra turns in battle because their +1 morale ability, which is great.
These units greatly benefit your army when you have Tactics advantage, because they will be able to reach the enemy units in just one turn which is great, (your flyers won't suffer so much with them near). If you can Bless them, do it, because they have a great damage range, (12-20).
Their upgrade is not a big need early because they are very good without it. You better concentrate in getting your Dragons or levelling up your Mage Tower, (a big need if you are a Warlock).

Manticore/Scorpicore

This is perhaps the weakest unit in your army, with very low stats for a sixth level unit. However their advantage is being a fast flyer with a good skill, (paralyse).
But the same of the Medusa is applied here, don't confide in the ability because it won't show up every time, (or will show up but not when you need it) unless you really need it.
Don't risk them too much if the situation doesn't need it or you will lose too many of them, try to attack when your enemy has lost the counterstrike, specially when attacking sixth and seventh level units.
However it's not always possible because as a flyer you need them to go fast for the enemy ranged units, (even more in castle siege), so you will be hit by their foot soldiers. Use the wait-attack tactic if possible, give them the Minotaur support, or resurrect them often.

Red Dragons/Black Dragons

Your best units. You need them as soon as possible. However it won't be easy because you need lots of resources to build up your town until get them.
Their breath attack is a very good speciality to fight in an aggressive way, (if you attack with your Dragons before your enemy has moved their units you will have more probability to use that attack). But it can have a double-edged effect because you can kill your units if you aren't careful.
Always place your Dragons next to your units, and don't let any hex between them, or any enemy stack could attack your Dragons and you would kill your own units in the counterstroke .
The magic immunity is an advantage in average. With Black Dragons you won't be able to boost them with beneficial spells, but they won't be vulnerable to Blind, big damage spells nor negative spells, (Slow, Curse...), so you can always count that they will always have a good speed, damage stat, attack and defense values...
The same is true for Red Dragons, though they will be vulnerable to fourth, and fifth level spells, yours or from the enemy. The big advatge of that is that you can resurrect them, (great). The upgrade is a must, the sooner the better, being the only exception if your main hero is a Warlock with the Resurrection spell. In that situation you better not rush for the upgrade and concentrate in levelling up your Mage Tower.

Note that one of the best spells for your units is Bless though a Mass Bless is not
probably, because Warlocks rarely get Water Magic and Overlords can't get it. You'll have to learn to fight with what you have with.

Building order
One of the big disadvantages of Dungeon is its slow building up, and the need of big amounts of resources and money. It can be quite difficult to get red dragons week 2.

Day one I would buy harpies, and upgrade them day two to get army which can clear low units and take mines. Day three I woul buy beholders, then medusas on day four, minutaurs day, 5, and castle day 7. I'll say it is more important to get minotaurs than town hall because 9 minotaurs can win many battles for you start of week two. I also prefer to upgrade harpies because of their no retaliation ability makes you capable of taking mines and clearing of small wandering troops.

Day 1 week 2 I would buy manticores, two manticores are not a great boost but can be helpfully. If I need ressources I would buy a marked (works very well if you conquer another town at this stage and also buy marked there), otherwise buy mage guild if you need magic. Day 3 mageguild if you haven't bought that day 2, else mage guild level 2.  On day 4 you can get dragons, but if you can afford to buy them, just upgrade some of your other creatures (medusas makes a good choice since their upgrade are quite valuable and very cheap). It is of course preferable to get dragons day four instead of later. Day five and six go for upgrades, maybe upgrade minotaurs because of speed boost, but the cost is 3000 g, 5 ore and 5 gems, and you have to get Dragons at leats day seven (if you haven't got dragons day 4. Maybe if you own a minotaur or manticore dwelling, or just a dungeon dwelling, portal of summoning could also be a clever build. Day seven you get your dragons unless you have got them before, then upgrade

If the map is very rich you can play a very aggresive style making you able to get blacks week 2, but the map also have to be rich. To do this, you can't build any money building exept maybe marked. Follow the same strategy as mentioned above first week unless upgrading and get as many money and ressources that you can. Second week you have to ensure that your building order makes you able to get blacks mid day 5 five 2. This can make you capable of an early assault week three. But I have to emphasize that this is only smart if the map are rich, and if you can get a gold mine or a town very fast. One thing is to build the structures, another is to buy the all of the creatures day 1 week 3. If this strategy succes you can actually make an assult start of week three.

Normally you will get a second town first week. How to build up this together with your main differs much and it greatly depends on how much money and ressources you have and which map you have, so I'll leave it to your own judgement. A thing I find useful though is to get harpy hags first week in the second town to make my little first week army consiting of particularly harpies and trogs a little more effective. Harpy hags are very important first week, I'll say. Also a marked can be helpful if you lack in ressources. Second week just try to get as many creatures as you can spare and if possible also castle.

With a Warlock though it can be usefull to build up the mage guild instead of a rush for blacks.
Other towns develop faster so perhaps they will have higher level units if they attack you early so you will have to be careful with the possiblity of an enemy attack. But if you have resisted and you have developed your town and main hero, then you have a great hero, with a great army, and useful special buildings.
Now is your time, go for the enemies and slaughter them . It is very difficult to build up a great army first month, which makes this town best for large or xtra large maps. Though it is possible to gather a strong army and have a good hero week 3 or 4.


Warlocks and Overlords

My self I prefer Overlords above Warlocks. Here I'll tell some of the reasons why I prefer the Dungeon might hero, the Overlord, over the magic hero, the Warlock.

First of all the existent Overlords are good heroes, with good specialities and starting skills. They come with good starting armies, which is a big help in the early game.
They develop very well the secondary skills so you can get most of the useful skills for might heroes, and is quite probably to get two magic skills, one of them Earth Magic surely, (great).
You can't get Water Magic however, so there's no Mass Bless or Mass Dispel or Cure .
That's not a very positive point but it's not definitive, you can fight without those spells getting advatage of your good might skills and your probably two magic skills.

However Warlocks are very good heroes too, they come with good specialities and spells, which can be very helpful in the early game to clear mines, (while Overlords come with armies, Warlocks come with good spells).
They develop well the secondary skills with good probability to get three magic schools, (Water is not probably too), and they can't get resistance, (not a great problem).
However they have a higher probability than Overlords to get a second class secondary skill, like Eagle Eye, Mysticism or Scouting . But this is not a definite reason to get Overlords or Warlocks, as they are quite similarly good.

Overlords are quite balanced.
They develop most of all attack and defense but they will have decent spell power and knowledge stats.
So they can become good magicians with time, especially if you supply them with some good artifacts to increase spell power.
I've said spell power because knowledge is not a problem for an Overlord.
Remember that you have the Mana Vortex, which in addition to a decent knowledge stats, and perhaps Intelligence as secondary skill, and probably any artifact increasing your knowledge, means that you can have even more spell points than a magic hero from any other town.
Warlocks however are pure spell power, and the magic is the only way they can become great heroes.

One of the great problems for Warlocks is the lack of high Mage Tower levels early in the game, because you will need lots of resources and money to develop your town, (huge amounts of wood and sulphur and quite gems and ore too).
That will let Warlocks in a very bad situation because they need good spells to resist the attacks of other might heroes or magic heroes which can get spells before than you, (most of the towns).

In the line of the previous reason, Warlocks have a great spell dependency so even if you develop your Mage Tower but don't get good damage spells then you are in big, big trouble, because you have to conquer other towns, and pray to get the Mage Tower at least with level three, (if not you will spend lots of resources again and that means more time), and get any good damage spell.
Of course if you wil get Armageddon in your starting town, then you are blessed by the gods and you are a big trouble for your enemies. And if you can get other spells like Meteor Shower you can face your enemies without fear but if not you better pray. Ressurection also makes a Warlock devastating.

These reasons make Warlock very weak in the early game.
They will probably be better than Overlords to clear mines in the first two weeks because of their starting spells, (Overlords won't have it easy if you don't waste too much money, which you need to get fast your Capitol and Dragons, in units like Beholders).
But if you start closed to other towns faster in development, (most of them), you can be easily killed without having even the third level of Mage Tower if they attack your Warlock early. Overlords however can spend some money to get units, and resist better, (or even attack), in those situations.

In conclusion though a high level Warlock with good spells is a formidable hero, but you won't easily get to that situation, being very weak in the early game and depending a lot of the spells you get in your Mage Tower.
Overlords however are more flexible and adapted, good to every map, and they will become good magicians with time, without any apparent weakness.

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Casihasi
Casihasi


Known Hero
posted September 02, 2009 01:21 AM

Very nice post there, id give you a QP

1 point thou, i feel that Scorpicores are often very underrated.
If they do a follow-up attack on a stack of L7s, and paralyze hits, it is so sweet that it easily makes up for the lower hitpoints and damage.
I usually want to take them out asap when i face a dungeon army, speed 11 and paralyze makes them a real threat.

Just imagine a big final battle with lots of angels from cons etc, Scorps or Unicorns are the L6s i would pick for such fights.
Sure a Dread Knight does more damage, but does it really matter as much with lots of L7s on the field?

And they are also sweet for map hero speed.

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maretti
maretti


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted September 03, 2009 11:53 PM
Edited by maretti at 00:16, 04 Sep 2009.

It seems that if only you write a post that is at least 100 lines long  and isnt total nonesense you will recieve a qp. As far as I know the q stands for quality not quantity.

@Lumske_Beaver: This comment is not ment as an attack on you. I acknowledge the work you have put into this post, but unfortunatly you lack a bit of insight.

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SAG
SAG


Promising
Supreme Hero
WCL owner
posted September 04, 2009 09:09 AM

I agree with Maretti. Lot of work done, but not much sense. Sometimes 10 words are much more value than 1 page of text.
Quote:
First of all you have a town with three flyers, two ranged units and two-foot soldiers, which makes it one of the best for siege attack.

Siege happens VERY rarely in multiplayer games...Why? Skilled player will not attack into siege until he will have 2-3 times better army. Honorable player will not sit in town waiting till his opponent will become 2-3 times stronger and just delaying the game. I guess, that most threads in Library are refered to multiplayer games, because killing comp is so easy.
Quote:
Other reason is that you have one of the best 7th level creatures in the game, the Black Dragon.

Dragons are good, but not as important as you say. On quick templates like Balance and Skirmish I often don't have dragons at all, because they are so expensive and 3-5 Red dragons can't make much difference in game.
Quote:
Portal of Summoning can be great if you find a good extra town dwelling, specially if we talk about Black Dragons, (though I confess I don't use it very often because it's not usual to find these dwellings).

Believe me, most players use it in EVERY game. 33 upg. minotaur on week 3 is a really strong army. Same with scorpicores and many others.
Quote:
Troglodytes/Infernal Troglodytes
They are just average as level one unit.

One of the best level 1 units in game. Can you take griffin confervatory on day 1 with any other town using only level 1 army? With some luck you can take even 2-angels-conservatory on day 1.
Quote:
Harpies/Harpy Hags
Good when upgraded. In fact this is one of the priority upgrades in the first week because you will need them to clear mines in company of Trogs.

Who cares about mines? Mines are almost useless map objects. Upgrading Hags can make sense sometimes (for example if you found 1-2 external dwells of Hags), but not often, as you need to build each turn new creature buildings.
Quote:
Beholders/Evil Eyes.
I prefer not to buy them until week three at least, until then they can be a great defense for your town if an enemy hero wants to attack you.

Depends on template, but anyway you will need to buy some of them on week 1 or week 2 to use as fodders in conservatories/hives/topes.
Quote:
Medusas/Medusa Queens.
Don't buy them if not upgraded because they will get without shots too fast.

Again, good fodder. No need to upgrade fodder.
Quote:
Medusa Queens. This is other of the priority upgrades, because they are one of the best units in your town

Wrong. Mino, scorpicore and trogs are more useful and their upgrades are more urgent.
Quote:
Minotaurs/Minotaur Kings.
Their upgrade is not a big need early because they are very good without it. You better concentrate in getting your Dragons or levelling up your Mage Tower, (a big need if you are a Warlock).

Wrong. Upgrade is very important to allow minos reach shooters in 1 turn (with Tactics).
Quote:
Red Dragons/Black Dragons
Your best units. You need them as soon as possible.

Depends on template. Often you don't need them at all.
Quote:
Note that one of the best spells for your units is Bless though a Mass Bless is not probably, because Warlocks rarely get Water Magic and Overlords can't get it.

Mass Bless is always better than single Bless
Quote:
Of course if you wil get Armageddon in your starting town, then you are blessed by the gods and you are a big trouble for your enemies. And if you can get other spells like Meteor Shower you can face your enemies without fear but if not you better pray.

Offensive spells like Meteor Shower or Armageddon rarely are important in human fights.

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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted September 04, 2009 09:23 AM

And why do you always have to check if a post fits to multiplayer standard?

- Sieges happen very often in single player games, so what is wrong with his stament?
- Black dragons appear pretty often in single player maps/games.
- Troglodyte themselves are NOT one of the bets level 1 units. It's only the amount they come with Shakti. I don't know why 50 troggies are any better than 50 gnolls or 50 pikemen or 50 centaurs or 50 goblins
- If you play 200% or poor templates, you will of course care about mines...

Just to point out a few things...

If the so called vets would post more quality instead of ranting, we would probably have different posts in between the "top 2%", which are normaly rewarded.

It is not MY fault you all just quarrel about TE...
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 04, 2009 09:48 AM

While I completely agree with you, angelito, there are still some issues with that post, even for single player.

For example, I don't see much quality in something that says, describing a unit:
Quote:
I don't buy them [Beholders] in the early game just because they are so expensive and they make very low damage.


to continue in building order:

Quote:
Day three I woul buy beholders


Doesn't make much sense, if you ask me.

What I don't like in general is that so many posts about this and that are made without naming the proper context: Diff Lvl, Map size, SP/MP and even general map structure (rich/poor). Everything should and WILL play a role, obviously, and your priorities and strategies will differ accordingly. It's not necessary to cover the whole frealing game, but the proper context should be given.

Also, Heroes 3 is 10 years old, and in my time - about 9 years ago - I wrote a couple of lengthy strategy essays about towns, but since this is completely ANCIENT, I don't see any reason to post them. After 10 years things should be clear, shouldn't they?

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SAG
SAG


Promising
Supreme Hero
WCL owner
posted September 04, 2009 10:23 AM

Quote:
And why do you always have to check if a post fits to multiplayer standard?


I assume that MP players are more skilled than SP players, do you agree? Also, Lumske_Beaver didn't mention that he is writing advises for SP players.
Quote:
- Troglodyte themselves are NOT one of the bets level 1 units. It's only the amount they come with Shakti. I don't know why 50 troggies are any better than 50 gnolls or 50 pikemen or 50 centaurs or 50 goblins

Agree. I've compared relative value of troglodites which includes their growth and starting troops.
Quote:
- If you play 200% or poor templates, you will of course care about mines...

Depends on template On majority of popular templates including poor Panic/Balance i don't care about mines. Regarding diff - you are right, things may change, but how many games go on 200%? few percent i guess...
Quote:
What I don't like in general is that so many posts about this and that are made without naming the proper context: Diff Lvl, Map size, SP/MP and even general map structure (rich/poor). Everything should and WILL play a role, obviously, and your priorities and strategies will differ accordingly. It's not necessary to cover the whole frealing game, but the proper context should be given.

I completely agree. People often speak about different aspects of the game and argue a lot because of confusion.

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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted September 04, 2009 11:03 AM

Of course MP players are more skilled in general, there is no doubt.

But when I describe a town, I can't do that only from the view point of a human vs human game which ends in week 3 on a rich template like Jebus.

And we all know from our own experiences, single player is played on 200% in 99% of all games. So if you play dungeon on 200% on a poor template, you play different than on 130% jebus, or don't you agree?

And if you read my first post on this page, you see that I mentioned that he posted some bad advices too, but this doesn't make his whole post nonsense.
All in all I like his post, especially for someone who is new to our community. And the library lacks in quality lately, so I don't see any problems rewarding a post like this.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 04, 2009 12:44 PM

Quote:
On majority of popular templates including poor Panic/Balance i don't care about mines. Regarding diff - you are right, things may change, but how many games go on 200%? few percent i guess...


That's part of the problem I have with MP play. I don't think that MP play should be an exercise in who can accomplish most with basically unlimited means - this degenerates things into an exercise in logistics (and I don't mean the skill here).
In my opinion, if the game is set so that you CAN buy a unit with a really unfavorable Bang/Buck ratio like the Beholder on turn 2 or 3 without suffering negative consequences (starting means high and/or map rich), then you are butchering the finer points of the game. The same is true if you can allow to leave mines be. Of course that's only MY opinion.
I've always thought that in Heroes 3 the Expert Level of Heroes 2 was missing, the starting amount 5000 gold plus 5/5/2/2/2/2 resources, which is my take on what you should start with.
Of course that's again only MY opinion.

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arnenzo0
arnenzo0

Tavern Dweller
posted September 04, 2009 03:41 PM
Edited by arnenzo0 at 16:26, 04 Sep 2009.

dungeon can be supreme on jebus especialy if u play shakti
if u r lucky to find day 1 or day 2 a dragons dwell u wont have any problems in week one u can start cleaning your area coz with shakti if u take ~90 trogs (even 140+ is possible) u can take dragons dwell day 1 (u will loose bout 40-50 trogs) but day 2 u can build  portal of summoning and get another dragon from there so u will have 2 dragons day 2 which is good even manticores dwell will do 4 mants day 2 wont be a problem against shooters

just in case this is an example how to take a dragon dwell day one:


1)make sure u do trogs same way as in a picture:

2)dont let the dragons hit your main stack before u hit the dragons

3)hit the dragons with one trog as u will hit them again with no retelation for your main stack


4)keep your fodders as shown in picture "touching" each other as most likely dragons will hit two stacks instead of 1

5) here u go


hope this helps for somebody

P.S after that i fought those genies and took 10k exp pandora so i was level 9 day 2 thats how this game meant to be played

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