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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Heroes 3 Town Rating -DUNGEON-
Thread: Heroes 3 Town Rating -DUNGEON- This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT»
Lumske_Beaver
Lumske_Beaver


Adventuring Hero
posted September 05, 2009 10:44 PM

Quote:
I would like to see maretti post about all towns. I read the stronghold post and was great, like to see other towns too maretti. What you think? You have time?


Would be great. There really was plenty of good information in your post about Stronghold, and I have to admit that I often use it as a guide

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Anil
Anil


Known Hero
posted May 03, 2016 06:44 PM

2 sturdy shooter with no melee penalty. Good magic. Excellent special buildings. Good Heroes. The power of the Dungeon creatures above average.

Probably 2.nd or 3.rd best town.
____________

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AlHazin
AlHazin


Promising
Supreme Hero
النور
posted September 27, 2016 08:34 PM
Edited by AlHazin at 20:37, 27 Sep 2016.

Dungeon


Adventages :

A powerful town with lots of specials, relatively magic oriented, strong AND fast units, special buildings help boosting heroes in early and late game, sometimes hording creatures. Mage guild not much restricted. Two good shooters with no melee penalty. With dungeon there's no need to hold back.


Disadvantages :

Expensive to build, units are costly. Below average level 6 unit. Vulnerable town in early games and poor maps. Expect economical problems.


Best creatures :

- Minotaur : good morale, deals great damage, fast, durable. One of the best level 5 unit.

- Black dragon : While maybe not the strongest unit in the game, it's one of the most effective one in dealing damage. Its immunity to magic is a bless for it allows different strategies (armageddon stategies in the hands of powerful warlocks), but also a curse since it can't be resurrected if lost.


Worst creatures :

- Troglodyte : average level one unit, not that fast. Its principal caracteristic is that it is immune to blind, even from if attacked by unicorns.

- Harpies : their striking specialty is useful, their speed of 9 + no retaliation allows "ranged" hand-to-hand attack, like a hit and run. But their other stats remain low.

- Manticore : Despite its speed, low stats and health, and has no special before the costly upgrade.


Special buildings :

- Mana vortex doubles maximum spell points once per week and per hero, good for warlorcks who happen to have great magic stats.

- Portal of summoning : nice building allowing you to recruit creatures from external dwellings. Therfore one should flag only external dwellings that present useful monsters (level 7) if present.

- Artifact merchant : like in tower, allows to buy artifacts. Wait end of the month makes prices get low.

- Battle schoolar academy : boosts heroes with + 1000 exp points. Useful in the beggining or when hiring a new hero.


Building order :

Has the most "classical" building order :
Creatures dwellings require generally the previous one to be built, dragon cave needs certain levels of mage guild just like in rampart.


Hero classes :

- Overlords are good might heroes : they get many useful skills when leveling up, such as logistics, tactics, ballistics, artillery, earth magic. Ressembles much to the knight.

- Warlocks are the strongest magic heores, and the weakest fighters : they get spell power points just like a barbarian gets attack skills, very tributary to magic, which can be dangerous. However they have good specials, mostly resurrection and meteor shower, and allow magical tactics like dragoggedon or imploggedon (juste invented it).


Other heroes might be :

- Calid for her + 1 sulfur specialty.

- Crag Hack for his offense special, Gundula might be more interesting for being a battlemage.


Maps :

Dungeon armies can handle effectively maps where there is time and ressources to build up, in early game it is somehow vulnerable and it should be avoided in small/poor maps and quick games.


Own subjective ranking :

Dungeon is to be placed 4th I guess. But for fun, it's my favourite town.
____________
Nothing of value disappears from this world, it will reappear in some shape or form ^^ - Elvin

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b0rsuk
b0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted September 30, 2016 08:01 AM
Edited by b0rsuk at 08:04, 30 Sep 2016.

Dungeon is very good against neutrals, because it gets so many "no losses" units:

Harpies
Evil Eyes + Medusae
2 flyers

It's almost like the town has 3 shooters. You have so many units capable of dealing damage without losses - a newbie-friendly town. Harpies won't benefit from Archery, but as mentioned the shooters are sturdy and have no melee penalty, so do get Offense.

When you evaluate Scorpicores, keep in mind they appear in an already strong (or easy) lineup. The town already has very strong support units. Try to think what would happen if you gave them very strong flying point man! It happens eventually with the dragons, but it would be even worse. As it is, almost the entire town can hit the other side in turn 1 (especially with Tactics).
At the very least, scorpicores are able to block enemy shooters, and even if this means they will die, such gambit will pay off because you will have complete ranged domination during that time.

In my games, troglodytes tended to breed very well and deal very heavy damage. They get very good support from higher tiers, and tend to be called only to mop up already weaked targets.

Going by primary stats, Overlord is the closest to Barbarian. He gets A LOT of attack skill. Knight is very close to Ranger. A ton of attack skill goes very well with units having lots of initiative and shooting/strike&return abilities. The town plays quite a bit like Sorceress of HOMM1-2 led by a Barbarian.

Like H3 Fortress, Dungeon has nice synergies in its Magic guild. It gets lots of Earth magic and it's a very melee-capable town. Plus, Expert Slow works on your enemies unlike Expert Haste, where dragon immunity would be a downside. Dungeon has the highest chance of Armageddon of all towns, and magic-immune Dragons at its disposal.

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AlHazin
AlHazin


Promising
Supreme Hero
النور
posted September 30, 2016 09:15 PM
Edited by AlHazin at 21:42, 30 Sep 2016.

Yes you're right, offense is a very good skill for dungeon, especially for the overlord. It will surely be more useful than archery.

Of course, judging the manticore/scorpicore role in the whole lineup will show its interesting points, it's just when analysing it by its stats that it will prove to be below average for its level, and that's good, for the sake of balance. Dungeon creatures are tough, so having that level 6 tough too would overpower that town, juste like the necro level 7 is pretty week, while it's 4th, 5th and 6th are above average their levels.

Where I'm not OK with you, is for the comparison between the hero classes. I maintain that from primary stats regarding, the overlord is still closer to the knight than he is to the barbarian.

Please check the below :

Classes Levels Att Def SP Knowledge

Barbarian 2-9 55% 35% 5% 5%
Knight   2-9 40%   40% 10% 10%
Overlord 2-9 40% 35% 15% 10%

The overlord is a weaker fighter than the barbarian, but a stronger spellcaster. But there's a truth in what you say, as the overlord tends to get the same secondary skills than the barbarian (tactics, ballistics, offense, resistance, and even leadership making it closer again to... the knight ) haha.

Regards.

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b0rsuk
b0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted October 01, 2016 08:31 AM
Edited by b0rsuk at 08:32, 01 Oct 2016.

Okay, I remembered wrong. But what I meant is that it's a hero with high attack and lower defense. Apparently no one comes close to Barbarian for Attack.

Defense-wise, Beastmasters are terrifying and they have more Defense than Barbarians Offense!
Also, Rangers have more Defense than Knights, which is interesting.

For the same reason that Offense is good with Dungeon, I would take melee-centric schools like Fire and Earth.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 01, 2016 12:36 PM

I tend to disagree with the general tenor of Dungeon being an "easy" or beginner town and player-friendly - on the contrary.
First of all, if you consider only Dungeon unit levels 1-6, what you get is the lowest weekly HP production, the lowest damage output and all that for a lot of gold. There is no "key unit", that will do a lot of easy damage, like Marksmen and Grand Elves, and there is a very strict building order. Play on impossible, with your L3 needing all resources to build this can be quite ugly.

In the beginning you have a high number of Trogs which works in your favor, since they will melee-eliminate lighter opposition, especially underground, but Harpy Hags with their damage range of 1-4 (Bless being possible in the guild, but Water not being Dungeon magic). They are good as skirmishers to whittle down slow troops, but try to decimate Halberdiers with them.
And that's it. Beholders/Rvil Eyes? A point ranged damage cost 74 gold for an Evil Eye (68 for a Beholder). A grand elf does a point of ranged damage for 30 gold. They are a luxury unit you can't afford, and the worst thing that can happen to you on impossible diff is having a Beholder dwelling. With Portal of Summoning that will be tempting to go there, but you'll be hard pressed to pay for them.

Luckily enough there are a couple of good things as well. You have a workable strategy with both might and magic heroes. With a might hero you need (Advanced) Tactics asap, because that will allow you to immediately block all shooters with your Harpy Hags and give the Trogs time to close (otherwise, you'll be hard-pressed to deal with Lots of Marksmen, for example, initially). With a Magic hero you NEED spells, and while L1 is no problem to build, L2 MG may prove a problem as much as going on with building dwellings on impossible.

On the plus side are also the great town-specific buildings, the fact that your Mage Guild will be exceptional most of the time, your army COMPOSITION with 3 fast flyers and 2 shooters, and of course Dragons which are a must-have: if you consider the regular creature output, the percentage of strength your L7 adds is the biggest of all the original towns (and your L6 the lowest).
You really NEED those Dragons.

The interesting thing is, that you have very different strategies depending on hero development and spell acquisition; with a Resurrection hero, for example, you are not that keen on Dragon upgrading, although an Armageddon in the guild may change that (and with a Might hero there is no reason, not to grade them up).

In any case, if you play on a high difficulty level, then Dungeon is a very complex to play thing because your general map strategy DEPENDS - as opposed to, say, Tower or Castle or Rampart who will go for cheap ranged power with or without magic support, depending on the hero, but independent of difficulty or map richness or layout. The problem with Dungeon is, that you have to make a good estimate of what will be possible and play accordingly, because you can't afford to follow a path that doesn't gain.

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AlHazin
AlHazin


Promising
Supreme Hero
النور
posted October 01, 2016 01:24 PM

I agree with you Borsuk.


Well actually the beholder/evil eye is being that expensive probably cause of its possibility of close combat, and then (almost) no need to be defended. Dungeon creatures are expensive that is sure, but they have great capabilities. The problem is to be able economically and have the time necessary to build up sufficiently in order to take benefit from them.

For example, as you said, the dragons are a must, but getting to them takes a lot of time and ressources. It is opposed to the Stronghold for example, which comes strongly into play pretty early in the game.

And following you, yes, Dungeon is to be avoided on 200% if the map is poor/small. Dungeon is for the long run. The very long run.

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b0rsuk
b0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted October 03, 2016 01:21 AM

JollyJoker said:
I tend to disagree with the general tenor of Dungeon being an "easy" or beginner town and player-friendly - on the contrary.
First of all, if you consider only Dungeon unit levels 1-6, what you get is the lowest weekly HP production, the lowest damage output and all that for a lot of gold. There is no "key unit", that will do a lot of easy damage, like Marksmen and Grand Elves, and there is a very strict building order. Play on impossible,


Emphasis mine.
I think you've just proved my point ! Beginners very rarely play on the Impossible level. On the contrary, they may reduce the default difficulty. The primary difference is more starting resources. With those, it's easy to build up expensive Dungeon.

For the same reason Tower is a nice beginner town. On fairly typical Normal difficulty level (I tend to play Expert or Impossible myself - single player), it's not a hard town to build. You do lack a good early melee unit, but master gremlins make things manageable. Boars of HOMM2 were comparable to gargoyles, but it was possible to build Roc Nest on day 1.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 03, 2016 09:16 AM

No, you missed the point. Whether there is an abundance of resources or not - there is no "natural" play for Dungeon; you can build only one creature after another which means you cannot skip stuff and go high-tier creatures asap, like you can with others, say, going for Efreets with Inferno, plus you need more prerequisites for the Dragons, which means, the characteristics come into play I mentioned; no "special high damage unit", fewest HPs on L1-6 and fewest damage on L1-6. Tower is different because there's a "natural" play, going for Master Gremlins and shoot the hell out of everything, your Heroes more or less forcing you to go magic no matter what.

Of course - in my book that makes Dungeon an extremely interesting town to play, and playing maps on impossible with Dungeon and random hero is really fun.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted October 03, 2016 11:25 AM

JollyJoker said:
And that's it.


You seem to be forgetting harpies are best used luring, with trogs and evil eyes along early creeping is no problem, so you get everything but the dragons by the end of the week. When you look at your current army, you might wonder, do you really need them at this point?
____________
He JVC taught us how to use skeletons. -Ghost

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 03, 2016 11:49 AM

YOU seem to forgetting that you can do that with every other town as well, except there are those that allow you to go for L7 week 1 and you STILL have fewest HP output AND fewest damage output. And the fact that you don't need all that "creature stuff" isn't actually positive, because the question is what you DO need to ensure loss-free creeping.

Now, whether a town is easier or more difficult to play, that's something you cannot decide on a difficulty level where nothing matters and everything is easy provided you do anything at all. How difficult a town is to play, that you can assess only on levels that don't allow you to just do anything you want, but need you to have a plan, minimize creeping forces with serious opposition.
So if you start playing on higher difficulty levels, THEN Dungeon forces you to really get into the tank - other than with other towns, where things are pretty straightforward and obvious.

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted October 03, 2016 11:53 AM

I feel confident that if you are a beginner and do not go for capitol first, something went wrong.

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AlHazin
AlHazin


Promising
Supreme Hero
النور
posted October 03, 2016 02:53 PM

Dungeon presents the biggest challenge in 200% difficulty level, building that pillar of eyes gets one's mind out of his shoes, in poor maps it's even almost impossible to develop the town correctly and fast.

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b0rsuk
b0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted October 03, 2016 09:27 PM

Are newbies confused by a linear build order ?

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 03, 2016 10:46 PM

;inear build order just means - no options, no matter what.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted October 03, 2016 11:39 PM

yes, because of the pillar, dungeon game can be lost in the first week, if stating on impossible. With other towns there is always a way.

But also online players use Expert play mostly, then on random maps they use the summoning gate as a killer bonus. If you get Shakti on first day, then 1-2 dragon dwellings in the area, is like you built the lair. It relies a bit on RNG but is easy to find level 7 dwellings on dirt. Thats why everyone picks Shakti when playing Dungeon. Without him, all this strategy is a dream only.

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AlHazin
AlHazin


Promising
Supreme Hero
النور
posted October 04, 2016 09:09 AM

It still requires a certain quantity of luck.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 04, 2016 09:26 AM

Not foolproof either, because that basically requires a gamble should you happen to stumble over low-level dwellings - you'll get a guaranteed additional dragon only when you haven't flagged other dwellings, and leaving Trog dwellings unflagged (troops for free) is usually not recommended.

I remember, being a bit unsatisfied with the starting resources and the difficulty levels, because in my opinion 5000 5 5 2 2 2 2 should be the Expert level, but no matter.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted October 04, 2016 09:32 AM

There could have been a "Master" difficulty between Expert and Impossible, with the ressources you mentioned.
I would have liked that as well.

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