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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: More on Master Genie's Casting Ability
Thread: More on Master Genie's Casting Ability
Zsa
Zsa


Famous Hero
posted March 07, 2006 01:20 AM
Edited by Zsa on 7 Mar 2006

More on Master Genie's Casting Ability

I did a fair bit of testing on the way master genie's spell casting ability works, and I found a couple of pretty interesting things:

I divided the spells the Master genie can cast into 2, and you will see why in the second part of my post:

a) the regular spells
Haste, Mirth, Haste, Prayer, Bless, Counterstrike, Stoneskin, Fortune

b) the special spells
Bloodlust, Air Shield, shield, Precision, Fire Shield, Cure, Frenzy

The configuration is 6 master genies + a stack you will cast on.
All the regular spell + some special spells will be cast once on your stack, until all the possible spells that the unit can  support will be cast on it.

Frenzy makes a special case because it will disappear faster than all the other spells (5 turns). That means that if you attack with 6 stacks of master genies and a different stack, all the master genies will be able to cast on the nagas after all spells are cast is frenzy (when it goes away).

Now say you attack with the nagas on the map. in the same config, naga stack + 6 Master genies stacks.

After all the possible beneficial spells are cast once on the naga, the only spells that you will still able to cast is frenzy when it goes away. If all the spells are cast on the naga, the genies will not be able to cast any more spells on the stack UNLESS the stack is attacked or the other spells wear off.

If the stack is attacked, the genies will be able to cast on the nagas a cure spell, that will always heal 50 hit points from the naga (this will be independent of the stack size of the genies or the nagas).

If however, your frenzy or any other spells wear off, the genies will either cast any of them as before , but now they will be able to cast cure as well. If all the other effects wear off, the genies will start recasting them in a random pattern as before.

Now this is where it gets complicated:
If you have a ranged stack (be it mage, grand elf etc), the spells being cast on you depends on whether you fight ranged or melee units:

The ranged units will always get cast on the all the regular spells + frenzy and precision - we call these the usual ranged spells

1. if you are fighting ranged units with your ranged stack, you will get the usual ranged spells + air shield cast on your unit as well, but you will not get bloodlust or fireshield or shield on your ranged unit. If however, you move your ranged unit next to the enemy ranged unit stack, your master genies will be able to cast fireshield, shield and bloodlust in addition to the rest

2. if you are fighting melee units with your ranged units, the genies will be able to cast all the usual ranged spells, including fire shield and shield, but no bloodlust. If however your ranged stack is attacked or moves next to the other melee unit you will be able to cast bloodlust. You will not be able to cast bloodlust if you have no enemy unit adjacent to your ranged stack.

Same happens if your unit runs out of shots, the master genies will be able to cast bloodlust in this case.

I'll be back


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Russ
Russ


Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
posted March 07, 2006 05:45 PM

I think you've skipped slayer, anti-magic and magic mirror.
I think in certain curcumstances genies will also cast slayer.
Also, anti-magic and magic mirror can only be cast when fighting the enemy heroes (they may also be able to cast it when fighting critters like faerie dragons, but I haven't tested it). Now - I am not sure yet whether it depends on the fact that these heroes have a spellbook, or if they are able to cast offensive spells, or if they've cast any offensive spells during the combat.
In my last fight the fist 2 casts were buffs. After my opponent started to cast chain lightning, genies casted anti-magic on arch mages. Just for the sake of it I casted another time on them and quite obviously they casted the only spell possible - magic mirror. No other spells could be cast on mages after that. The next round the genies casted magic mirror on gremlins.
It could be just a coincidence, but as soon as my opponent started to cast the big offensive spell, the genies started to protect my units from it.

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Zsa
Zsa


Famous Hero
posted March 07, 2006 06:16 PM
Edited by Zsa on 7 Mar 2006

No russ I don't think it's a coincidence either. I haven't included the other spells because so far i've tested only against wandering stacks that are not lvl 7 units. I should have mentioned that, but anyway, mentioning it now

edit: and didn't you cast antimagic with your hero on the arch mages? I thought you did that and since you had adv earth magic (i couldn't cast chain on them) the genies casted on them the only thing that they could (magic mirror).

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Russ
Russ


Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
posted March 07, 2006 08:32 PM

Quote:
edit: and didn't you cast antimagic with your hero on the arch mages? I thought you did that and since you had adv earth magic (i couldn't cast chain on them) the genies casted on them the only thing that they could (magic mirror).
Nope, genies did that I didn't even have anti-magic.

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Xarfax111
Xarfax111


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
posted March 09, 2006 02:46 PM

Is there more to come? This matter is very interesting.
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Zsa
Zsa


Famous Hero
posted March 09, 2006 04:44 PM

Yep, later on this week I will post more

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Gnoll_Mage
Gnoll_Mage


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted March 09, 2006 08:35 PM

Quote:
Haste, Mirth, Haste, Prayer, Bless, Counterstrike, Stoneskin, Fortune


Eh?

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william
william


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
posted March 16, 2006 08:44 AM

I thinks Genies casting ability is a good thing about the Genies.
They cast some good spells, and they are good to have in your army.

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Zsa
Zsa


Famous Hero
posted March 16, 2006 03:44 PM

yah, I did some more tests on the genie's casting ability, more specifically, I was trying to find a repetition or a pattern in the casting sequence on a single unit. Unfortunatelly, so far i've come up empty handed. I'll post the results later today, maybe somebody can find a pattern or a better strategy for testing this, I couldn't.

The other thing that I noticed from genie's casting ability, is that once a spell is cast, this somehow increases the probability of casting the same spell on different units.

ie: if you cast bloodlust on one of your units, there is a higher chance of getting bloodlust again, once you cast it on a different unit.

I need to do some additional testing on these to make sure, but it seems to be this way.

PS: Thanks for pointing that out GM.
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"You sound like zsa who only plays the game on forums" - Russ

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csarmi
csarmi


Supreme Hero
gets back
posted March 16, 2006 05:03 PM

Zsa, maybe it's just that the two bloodlust spells are cast under similar circumstances and that's what causes the correlation.

For example, if I toss a coin and get a head, next time I'll have a better chance to get head again. Because I have to think that on this particular coin head is more likely...

Maybe this is not a best example, but consider two hats.

In the first one there are 10 balls, 6 yellow, 3 red and 1 blue.

In the second one there are 10 balls, but 3 yellow, 2 red and 5 blue this time.

One of the hats is placed in front of me and I have to get a ball from it, take a look at it, then put it back.

What will I observe? I shall realize that if I get a yellow ball for the first time, I am more likely to get a yellow one for the 2nd time as well...
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Zsa
Zsa


Famous Hero
posted March 17, 2006 08:32 AM

hey csarmi, bloodlust was just an example of a spell, it didn't mean only bloodlust.

I couldn't find a pattern in the way the casting sequence works on a single unit(i will post the table as promised, I just didn't get the time to make it).

The thing i was saying is that for example, if you cast a spell on a unit, there is an increased chance of that spell appearing again when you're casting with the genies on a different unit.

So if for example I cast prayer and haste on the nagas, and I like them spells, it's probably better to go on casting the next spells on different units since you have a higher chance of getting good spells.

If however, I get fireshield and mirth on the naga, it will probably be better to continue casting on the nagas, since the spells suck and now I have a higher chance of getting them on other units, but not on the naga.

Of course, I still have to do a bit of testing on this casting on differnt units thingie, so don't cut my balls yet
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"You sound like zsa who only plays the game on forums" - Russ

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csarmi
csarmi


Supreme Hero
gets back
posted March 17, 2006 08:56 AM

That's just what my example said.

you get a yellow ball -> you are most likely at the 1st hat  -> you have a high chance to get a yellow again

you get a blue ball -> you are most likely at the 2nd hat -> you have a high chance to get a blue again


so:

if you get a yellow, you have a higher chance to get a yellow again (then it was a priori)

if you get a blue, you have a higher chance to get a blue again (then it was a priori)

different hats = different battles

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Zsa
Zsa


Famous Hero
posted March 17, 2006 09:07 AM

your example assumes you have two different distributions for ahem, teh balls.

Now if the spells were really completely random every time you cast a spell on a new unit, you have 1 ball I mean spell of each, so basically equally likely to happen.

And in the ball example, I alredy know the distributions of the balls in the two hats I have. Now if I would have that here, it would be case closed.

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Binabik
Binabik


Responsible
Legendary Hero
posted March 17, 2006 10:57 AM

Quote:
if you cast bloodlust on one of your units, there is a higher chance of getting bloodlust again, once you cast it on a different unit.


Did you have a large enough sample size to be significant?  Or could it just be coincidence?

Quote:
maybe somebody can find a pattern or a better strategy for testing this


I don't know if it's "better" because I don't know what you are doing.  But the way I would do it is to set up a simple controlled test.  For example with a single AI shooter stack with att/def equal to the grems.  Write the spells down. Then look for a pattern.

I would start out looking for a pattern for individual spells rather than an overall pattern.  After looking at individual spells, I would look for relationships between spell pairs, defensive spells, offensive spells, etc.  And finally scan for overall relationships seeing if something "jumps out" at me.

Then I would repeat the test against a single melee stack looking for the same things as above.  Then I would compare the two tests looking for tendencies of certain spells being cast more often in one test. If I saw a tendency toward a spell, I would run both tests again keeping the results separate rather than combining them.

From your "Zsa's Quiz", it's obvious you know more (remember more) about probability than me, so tell me if I'm wrong.  I'm doing this by what seems logical. I would think if the spell selection is random you would see a fairly big difference between the first results and the second.  If there is a pre-defined pattern I think it would show up the same in both results.

After that, the tests could be combined for a larger sample size which may cause something to stand out more.

Also, I would consider half-arrow and full-arrow as two different tests.  Comparing the results of those two might tell you something.  If there's a difference, I think it would stand out fairly well.  And an AI unit within melee attack range and not within range could be two tests and compared.  Again any difference would probably stand out.


BTW Zsa, let me know if you want help testing.  I can either run new tests, or verify your tests to see if I get the same results.
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Xarfax111
Xarfax111


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
posted March 17, 2006 11:04 PM

Those Master Genies are one of the last secrets, so dont let it die.

I think we actually need a "testing team" as the amount of tests seems to be too huge for one person.

The known things are the MGs cast on advanced level with spell power 5 (the spells last 5 turns).

Fixed is that the only spell is Magic Mirror after AntiMagic or on Gold Dragons.

For Magic Battlefest Games it was interesting to cast on the Red Dragons as the fights were on Magic Ground (Mass Prayer comes in handy ).

Also i think precision is of course only possible to cast on shooters, although i think bloodlust can be casted on shooters too.

Interesting would be if the MGs interact with the ongoing battle, e.g. casting protection spells after a huge damage spell or if spellpower is the highest primary skill, or it they cast shield if opponent can reach a certain creature, or cure if a creature is influenced by another creature speciality like stone gaze.

see ...questions over questions
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william
william


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
posted March 18, 2006 01:41 AM

Yeah Genies are really good units to have in your army, because of their casting ability.
They are essential to have, if you like casting spells

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Zsa
Zsa


Famous Hero
posted March 18, 2006 02:00 AM

Hey Xari, like I posted before, we already KNOW for sure, that the spells they cast depend on the situation on the battle field - read the thing I wrote about bloodlust, fire shield and shield again - first post towards the end is the most interesting part of what i found.

Those spells are influenced by the state your unit is in (is it in melee mode, or can it shoot? Is it fighting shooters, or ranged units, if it is an archer does it still have shots?). This I have already tested extensively and it is included in my first post.

I still need to do testing with heroes, magic, and special creatures (like mentioned), but I don't know when. If some people would like to help with this (special creatures with immunities/resistance/specials and how do the behave together with the spells) they are more then welcome, we're a community of heroes here after all

I am also convinced through testing that Magic Mirror and Anti Magic appear only when playing vs hero. And I am also pretty certain that the genies only cast those after a spell is cast

I'll post more later tonight, I got to go now. (and of course Binabik, the assistance of friendly barbarians is always welcome )

Cheers/
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"You sound like zsa who only plays the game on forums" - Russ

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william
william


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
posted March 18, 2006 02:02 AM

Anti Magic and Magic mirror can appear while playing opponents aswell

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Binabik
Binabik


Responsible
Legendary Hero
posted March 18, 2006 07:54 AM

I tested genies "cure" with the creature special abilities.  They didn't seem to cure more often than usual when the target was affected by a negative creature special.

I tested Dendroid Soldiers bind, War Unicorn blind, Zombie disease, Ghost Dragon aging, Medusa Queen stone, Scorpicore paralyze, Basilisks petrify, Monarch poison, Mummy and Dread knight curse, and Rust Dragon rust.

They didn't cast cure more often than other spells, but when they did, it cured all of the above except Dendroid and Rust Dragon.

I also saw some very wierd things that are probably bugs, but more on that later after I look at it more.
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