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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Best Unit in Heroes 1 or 2
Thread: Best Unit in Heroes 1 or 2 This thread is 8 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT»
william
william


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
posted March 26, 2006 04:47 AM
Edited by william on 26 Mar 2006

If you look in the manual like I did, it said that the Titan can easily beat a Black Dragon in hand-to-hand combat, it said 'easily'

Also I did a test the other dya.
I made a map, with one hero having 500 Titans and the other hero having 500 ghosts.
I did Ghosts first, and I died immediately.
I then changed to Titans.
I edited the map so the other hero had 650 ghosts.
Killed them easily.
Changed it to 1000 ghosts.
They died again.
Then I changed it to 3000 Ghosts.
I had the Titans.
The Titans attacked first, 1900 or something Ghosts left standing.
Ghost attacked, 14 Titans perished, Titans Retaliated, Ghosts defeated.
I then edited it again and made it so that their were 5500 Ghosts.
I won easily.
See Ghosts are not the strongest unit in the game. Titans or Black Dragons could easily beat them, as I have shown you already.
Ghosts are only good against lower levle units such as Peasants, but Peasants are the weakest unit in the game.
And as some of your posts before said that you could beat me with your Ghosts, I don't really see how you can.

I decided to then increase the Ghosts to 7000.
I battled the Ghosts. I thought that I would win, I did win, but I lost more Titans this time round.
This time I lost 296 Titans.
I decided to increase it to 7500 Ghosts. Now this would seem maybe a bit to much, as the Ghosts defeated about half of my Titans.
Maybe this time they would kill three quarters of my Titans.
I put it to the test.
This was the closest fight yet.
I won but I lost 451 of my Titans, the Ghosts tried hard, but even with their stonskin being cast upon them, they had no chance ofe defeating me, and I never casted one spell on my Beloved Titans.
With 7500 Ghosts you cannot beat 500 Titans, my hero stats were at normal (I hadnt gained any they were as they were when I started), I had no Artifacts and neither did the AI, and  didn't cast any spells.
So as you can see with the evidence that I have shown you, with 7500 Ghosts you can simply not beat 500 Titans.
Maybe now this will change your opinions of the Titans strength and Power.

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csarmi
csarmi


Supreme Hero
gets back
posted March 26, 2006 10:24 AM

William, you did a nice test, that's the way you to go! Nice job! As for a sidenote, you could do that with 10 titans vs 10 black dragons too. Come back with the results please.

Back to the ghosts. So, as your tests show, I need about 16 ghosts for every Titan to win the fight.

Now what everyone is trying to tell you is that your opponent will surely have at least 20/50/100 times more ghosts than you Titans. This is because your opponent will raise almost any single creature on the map as ghost for himself.
____________
Yes, I play the game only on the forums.

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supersonic
supersonic


Famous Hero
being digested. E=mc^2, s=vt
posted March 26, 2006 02:02 PM

True. Titans might be strongest creature, but not the best. If you are playing against a map, a good hero with 100+ ghost and logistics will clear it in no time.
BTW: I found a glitch that enables you to double the amounts of ghosts you have. Clone the stack of ghosts and attack with it. It won't disappear after the battle, because the variable of the number of ghosts have changed, which means that it's a creature (that's how the game thinks).
Sorry for disproving anyone who felt disproved.

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ComradeX
ComradeX


Known Hero
Demands raising new Titan's HP
posted March 26, 2006 09:48 PM

Nice job William! it is kind of you to do that just to prove your point. But still the growth rate of the Titans is too low to match that of the Ghosts. In a month you can get 24 titans with 2 towns (considering you have the funds for that). A single hero with a borrow mound can get 10 - 12 times more Ghosts in a week, and that's if there aren't any stacks of peasants around. 250 - 300 Ghosts can beat 25 Titans. You know, you should test that. You should check how many ghosts does it take to kill a Titan. Any way, even in a long, long game you won't get more then 100 Titans, while a Ghost wealding foe will get thousents or even tens of thousends of Ghost at the same time. Yes Titans are the strongest, yes hundrets of times that the Ghosts, but still this is a case of quantity VS. quality. Quantity wins.
For you Supersonic, have as much fun as you like with the "clone Ghost" trick, but please don't use it in multiplayer games as it is almost like cheating. By the way, how is your map going? are you ready to post it on Mapheavan?
____________
The frozen land of red Titans wishes you luck in your journeys

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supersonic
supersonic


Famous Hero
being digested. E=mc^2, s=vt
posted March 26, 2006 11:14 PM

Well, how should I name it? And how do you submit your map to mapheaven? WTF? Can somebody explain me all these @#$%^&* rules of submiting a map?

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william
william


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
posted March 27, 2006 09:22 AM
Edited by william on 27 Mar 2006

I know it is not that fesible thats why it was just a TEST. I was trying to prove that Ghosts are not the strongest units in the game, I will do a test with 20 Titans vs 300 Ghosts, I will edit this post when I have my results.

Ok I have finished my results and here it is:

I made a map with my hero having 20 Titans and the AI having 300 Ghosts, here is how the battle went:

I attacked first, then it retaliated, then it attacked and I then retaliated.
TITANS:18    GHOSTS:227

I attacked again, it retaliated, then it attacked and I retaliated.
TITANS:14     GHOSTS:174

I attacked again (cast stoneskin), then it retaliated, then it attacked and also cast stoneskin and then I retaliated.
TITANS:11         GHOSTS:128

I attacked, it retaliated, then it attacked and I retaliated.
TITANS:10         GHOSTS:92

I cast stoneskin on my Titans and attacked, then it retaliated, then it also cast stoneskin and attacked, and then I retaliated.
TITANS:8         GHOSTS:28

I attacked, then it retaliated, then it attacked and I retaliated and the Ghosts died.

I only lost 12 Titans, I had no artifacts, and I only cast the spell Stoneskin when the AI did.

So as you can see with the evidence that I have shown you here, Ghosts are not stronger than Titans, 20 Titans can easily beat 300 Ghosts, so Supersonic, I think that your theory that 20 Titans can be easily beaten up by 300 Ghosts as you stated in an earlier post on this page.


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this_other_guy
this_other_guy


Famous Hero
{0_o} heh...
posted March 27, 2006 09:52 AM

william, repeat the test you did, but with 10 titans vs 500 ghosts, since these numbers are more achievable and plausible.

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william
william


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
posted March 27, 2006 09:54 AM
Edited by william on 27 Mar 2006

Ok I will do it quick and then edit this post with the results, but 20 Titans is fesible, i can get them quite easily within a few weeks, but I will post my results shortly. Change of mind.
As in my last test, I had 20 Titans and I lost 14 of them, now if I have 10 Titans and they have 500 Ghosts I think that the answer would be obvious right from the start.
As it would be impossible for me to win, because I lost 14 Titans last time and this time I have less than 14 Titans, and that can't work.

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this_other_guy
this_other_guy


Famous Hero
{0_o} heh...
posted March 27, 2006 10:20 AM

well, my point exactly.. it takes several weeks to gain 10 titans (presuming cloud castle was already built on day 1), and in the same period of time a hero who starts with a mound next to his town can easily achieve 500 ghosts by wiping out weak neutrals.

By the time you have 20 titans, your opposition may  have 1000+ ghosts depending on map.

So the problem with your test is the fact that the titan/ghost ratio is not logically set up.

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william
william


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
posted March 27, 2006 10:26 AM
Edited by william on 27 Mar 2006

It doesnt take several weeks to buy 10 Titans, I can probably buy 10 of them in about 3 weeks.
If you have a mound next to your town, that only gives you Halflings, you don't have to fight them.
And as I stated before 20 Titans can beat 300 Ghosts, I only lost 14 Titans in that fight and using only 1 spell which was Stoneskin, and I had no artifacts at all.
You can easily beat 500 Ghosts if you have built up your attack and defense skills, but in my simple TEST I say again TEST, I had the neutral staring attack and Defense skills as you would normally have when you first start off.
Titans are still the best creature as 500 Titans can beat 7000 Ghosts and 20 Titans can beat 300 Ghosts easily.

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this_other_guy
this_other_guy


Famous Hero
{0_o} heh...
posted March 27, 2006 11:17 AM

Quote:
It doesnt take several weeks to buy 10 Titans, I can probably buy 10 of them in about 3 weeks.


What is your definition of the word 'several' anyway The max growth of titan per week is 3, so to get 10 you will need 4 weeks minimum.

Quote:
If you have a mound next to your town, that only gives you Halflings, you don't have to fight them.


Mounds give you ghosts...

Quote:
And as I stated before 20 Titans can beat 300 Ghosts, I only lost 14 Titans in that fight and using only 1 spell which was Stoneskin, and I had no artifacts at all.


In a real game, that will never happen. By the time you have 20 titans, you will be facing a crapload more than 300 ghosts from your enemy hero (if its just titans vs ghost fight).

Quote:
You can easily beat 500 Ghosts if you have built up your attack and defense skills, but in my simple TEST I say again TEST, I had the neutral staring attack and Defense skills as you would normally have when you first start off.
Titans are still the best creature as 500 Titans can beat 7000 Ghosts and 20 Titans can beat 300 Ghosts easily.


As above.

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meph
meph


Adventuring Hero
Rampaging Rampart
posted March 27, 2006 12:50 PM

William, I like your tests. But I did some testing myself.

I made a map once which consisted of 2 equally filled parts. All kinds of creatures, and 2 full-built towns. The 2 sides were mirror versions of each other. I edited it so that one town was a fully built wizard town (Including Titans) and the other only had a barrow mound for the ghosts. It's a M sized map.

By the time the two armies reached each other (Week 7), the Wizard army had 20 Titans (One lost in a battle against Red Dragons) and the Ghost army had...don't get scared yet....958 Ghosts. Both armies had kinda equal ATK and DEF stats, the Titan one had a bit more DEF, the ghost a bit more ATK, and the battle started.

The Ghosts massacred the 20 Titans. With ease.






And before you ask, yes, I do have too much spare time.

Titans may be the best stat-wise. But their growth and pricetag make them not the best unit in the game.

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fishjie
fishjie


Adventuring Hero
posted March 27, 2006 01:15 PM

i really want someone to play him.  

the point is, you wont have 20 titans by the time the ghosts come knocking at your door.  just to prove my point, why dont you play on impossible difficulty, where you start out with 0 resources.   tell me exactly how long it will take to get 20 titans?   while the time to get hundreds of ghosts is exactly the same, since ghosts are FREE.  

 on a map where one guy starts next to a ghost mound, he'll just simply make a straight bee line for your castle, slaughtering any neutrals in the way, and easily getting hundreds of ghosts.   he'll arrive at your castle by no later than week 2, and you'll have at most six titans.   game over you lose.

yes i'm sure in a wonderful fairy tale land your opponent will twiddle his thumbs while you get 50 titans, but that's just not going to happen against any opponent, heck not even the ai is that dumb.

kthx.

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csarmi
csarmi


Supreme Hero
gets back
posted March 27, 2006 02:51 PM

Quote:
Well, how should I name it? And how do you submit your map to mapheaven? WTF? Can somebody explain me all these @#$%^&* rules of submiting a map?


just send it to me (csarmi AT gmail) and I will post it on my website for you)

To william:

1) 20 titans vs 300 ghosts is the same fight as 500 titans vs 7500 ghosts; no difference there - you have already covered it, so what?

2) if you do fight, at least control both sides for AI is a joke

3) When you have 20 titans, I will have about 1500 ghosts.
____________
Yes, I play the game only on the forums.

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ComradeX
ComradeX


Known Hero
Demands raising new Titan's HP
posted March 27, 2006 05:49 PM

Your tests are good William, but they do not prove the point.
First of all, try puting the control of both sides to the computer.
Second of all try playing a real game against the AI, even on the lowest level, on a map edited with a Borrow Mound near it's castle and you having a fully built town.
You will see that even in those conditions the Titans will lose, as by the time you and your enemy meet, despite the fact you will have good skills and spells the enemy will have a hundered times more ghosts than you Titans, thus quantity beats quality.
By the way Supersonic, you should send the map to csarmi for him to post it on the web and for us to get it and play. That will prove once and for all who is better (if it isn't obvious any way...)
____________
The frozen land of red Titans wishes you luck in your journeys

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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted March 27, 2006 07:38 PM

Please use the Library Feedback if u want to complain about any thread, any post or any user in the library. Donīt spam the thread with upcoming bashing.
Thx.
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.

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william
william


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
posted March 28, 2006 11:18 AM

But you could also look at some of my tests that I have posted before.
I actually have them all on paper, and I made another one which has all the things for example:
20 Titans vs 654 Ghosts-Titans won.
Thats the example and I also stated how many Titans or Ghosts that died or perished.
In this things that I did, out of 18 battles, Ghosts won only 5 times making the Titans the strongest.
If you like I could post my results table thing if you would like me to.

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ComradeX
ComradeX


Known Hero
Demands raising new Titan's HP
posted March 28, 2006 11:27 AM

William, you should post all of those tests as they are quite interesting.
Csarmi, please put a link to your site here, so we can download Supersonics map and play that online game to settle that issue.
____________
The frozen land of red Titans wishes you luck in your journeys

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csarmi
csarmi


Supreme Hero
gets back
posted March 28, 2006 11:37 AM

There is some randomness involved, however.
What would be of interest is to see how many ghosts are needed (at least) to defeat 100 titans (or 10 titans, no matter).
____________
Yes, I play the game only on the forums.

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william
william


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
posted March 28, 2006 11:43 AM

Here is the list of things that I said I would put up earlier:

10 Titans vs 150 Ghosts-Titans won 1 Titans perished.

10 Titans vs 175 Ghosts-Titans won 7 Titans perished.

10 Titans vs 200 Ghosts-Ghosts won.

15 Titans vs 200 Ghosts-Titans won 4 Titans perished.

15 Titans vs 250 Ghosts-Titans won 9 Titans perished.

15 Titans vs 275 Ghosts-Ghosts won 229 Ghosts perished.

20 Titans vs 300 Ghosts-Titans won 8 Titans perished.

20 Titans vs 350 Ghosts-Titans won 16 Titans perished.

20 Titans vs 375 Ghosts-Ghosts won.

20 Titans (expert Archery) vs 375 Ghosts-Titans won 17 Titans lost.

20 Titans (expert Archery) vs 385 Ghosts-Ghosts won 311 Ghosts perished.

500 Titans vs 500 Ghosts-Titans won
500 Titans vs 650 Ghosts-Titans won
500 Titans vs 1000 Ghosts-Titans won
500 Titans vs 3000 Ghosts-Titans won
500 Titans vs 7500 Ghosts-Titans won
500 Titans vs 8000 Ghosts-Titans won
500 Titans vs 9000 Ghosts-Ghosts won

Only with 9000 Ghosts can you beat 500 Titans, I made a map, these are TESTS, and I only cast stoneskin, and my hero had no experience what so ever, and my hero had no secondary skills apart from the ones mentioned.

Out of all these tests, Ghosts won only 5 times out of 18, whereas Titans won 13 times out of 18.

As you can clearly see Titans can beat Ghosts a number of different ways, with different amounts of them, Ghosts are stronga and good I will admit that but they are not as strong as Titans will ever be.

Titans are extremely tough creatures thats why they are lev6, and you should never underestimate Titans and you should also never underestimate Ghosts, but in power Titans will win the day.
So I hope that you have read my results and I hope that they may change your mind about Ghosts and Titans.
Thanks.

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