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| Thread: Power or Knowlege |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted March 22, 2006 04:41 PM |
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Ok, I've recently had a magic vrs magic game. Malekith (Power & Magic Damage) vrs Ayden (Mana). Ayden had about 3x more mana than Malekith (even though Malekith still had some extra mana left from a recently visited mana vortex). Our armies and OVERALL stats were very similar (well, obviously I had more power). I think we both had all spells, so that part was equal too. My implo could do 2x more damage than his level 7 stack needed, his implo was about 200-300 damage short of killing my evil eye stack (spellpower: 1, knowledge: 0). He moraled 2-3 times per round and resisted most of my first spells, so in the end he had his full Arch Devil stack and a big wyvern stack left vrs 2 of my wyverns and 9 eyes who also happened to be mass slowed at that time. On top of that, he still had about 300 mana left vrs my 30-something mana. Game over? My chain lightning did juuuuust enough damage to finish off the devils, kill his wyverns, my wyverns, and leave me with 3 eyes. (spellpower: 2, knowledge: 0)
Of course, this example is too specific to prove it for most of the games, but that's enough to prove it for myself.
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TNT_Addict
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Beautiful Liar
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posted March 22, 2006 05:11 PM |
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Russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted March 22, 2006 05:50 PM |
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Edited by Russ on 22 Mar 2006
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Quote:
Thats the worst example ive ever seen. Completly worthless.
Your argumentation is the worst I've ever seen. And it IS completely worthless. This also applies to your "Could someone please disprove all this? Im to tired right now." statement above.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted March 22, 2006 06:02 PM |
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How many "magic vs magic" endfights do u have in comparison to "might vs might"?
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Xarfax111
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
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posted March 22, 2006 06:17 PM |
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I didnt know that it is actually a matter of taste wether to take spellpower or spellpoints. For me it was always clear to take spellpower all the time. I think most of the endfights (about 80%) are over before round 5, so approx. 150 spellpoints should be more then enough. Still there is a chance that resurrection or summon elementals wins the fight, but those two spells need spellpower too to be effective (especially summon).
Actually i agree with Maretti, that when you enter an endfight with only 20 spellpoints on, that uve already lost. At least if your opponent isnt a total newbie or even more lousy, a computer.
For TP, DD or Fly you dont need skilling points. If you have those spells and are allowed to use them, then you can easily get enough spellpoints from arts and easily refresh your spellpoints without losing movement points.
Ive to agree with Maretti too, that the example Russ gave isnt really a good one. But thats maybe again a matter of taste.
Xarfax1
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Russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted March 22, 2006 06:39 PM |
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Edited by Russ on 22 Mar 2006
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Quote:
How many "magic vs magic" endfights do u have in comparison to "might vs might"?
Replace "Malekith" with "Alkin" and replace "Ayden" with "Gurnisson". After picking power from the schools of magic Alkin has more power, Gurnisson has more knowledge after picking knowledge. Both of them have also picked some arties along the way to give both of them a decent bonus to all stats. Now read my post again with that in mind. I hope that helps.
PS: 20 mana is THE WORST CASE. I already mentioned that I rarely had less than 40 for the end fight.
As for "you've already lost" with 20 mana statement - I've had final fights where I used less than 10 mana, even 0 mana was enough in some of them  (you don't need a whole lot of mana with the red orb).
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted March 22, 2006 07:08 PM |
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As i stated before, u only refer to an endfight scenario. What about the other 95% of the game?
Does your Power really help more in the first 2 weeks than your Knowledge does?
From my experience, i can say i refill my spellpoints normaly 1 time in the first 2 weeks, mostly on day 1 of 2nd week. So i will take every knowledge i can get, to be able to do as many fights as possible (where u normaly only use 1 or 2 spells a fight...like bless or haste) with my main, without running out of points. When the fights become tougher, u need different kind of spells (expert slow, blind, etc...), which on the hand cost more spellpoints and/or have to last longer, so power is more usefull later on in my eyes. Knowledge doesnīt help much from that on, coz u donīt refill that soon again...as stated.
And iīm not talking about Jebus template, when week 3 everything is over, but Extreme or Extreme 2, where u play till week 6 mostly.
But thatīs just my opinion and my experience...
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted March 22, 2006 08:41 PM |
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Ok, here is my experience:
Week 1:
Often I don't even have a spellbook on week 1. When I do have it, I find spellpower more important than knowledge - magic arrow the vamps in the crypt or some shooters. In tough fights those slow/haste/bless will last longer.
Any knowledge you pick doesn't help you here because as you've mentioned - usually you don't recharge till around week 2 day 1. 8/10 mana is just as good as 8/1000 mana.
Week 2:
This is usually where you'll get your 2-nd town even on the hardest templates. Build a mage guild and recharge the points (I am assuming that this is where you get the refresh you were talking about).
Week 2 is perharps the only week where your extra knowledge might give you a small advantage.
Here is where I try to conserve my spell points and only cast the smallest spells (which, may I add, will last longer than yours, so I won't have to recast that slow).
You'll refresh your mana every time you use "the rich man's TP" or take a town.
Week 3, etc:
By this time you've collected enough arties and/or visited enough +knowledge sites to give you enough mana to last you until your capture your next town or use "the rich man's TP".
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted March 22, 2006 08:50 PM |
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I guess this could be argued forever, but i know for sure, a bless on one of my units in a crypt helps much more than a magic arrow on the vamp does, especially with castle and pikemen..
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted March 22, 2006 09:09 PM |
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Quote:
I guess this could be argued forever, but i know for sure, a bless on one of my units in a crypt helps much more than a magic arrow on the vamp does, especially with castle and pikemen..
1 SP bless on your pikes? If I had 50 pikes, I'd cast a bless on them as well, but my bless would last longer and will end up doing more damage 
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted March 22, 2006 09:11 PM |
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And in the next crypt?...
Only 1 bless on 50 pikes is needed in a full crypt..
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted March 22, 2006 09:34 PM |
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Quote:
And in the next crypt?...
Didn't you say that you don't recharge till about week 2 day 1? So, we'll have exactly the same mana. 5/10 mana = 5/100000 mana. The only difference would be that I might have an extra mana point if I cast a magic arrow with one of the magic schools. This brings me on to the next point...Quote:
Only 1 bless on 50 pikes is needed in a full crypt..
How much damage will 1 round of bless add to 50 pikes hitting the vamps? How much damage will a magic arrow do with some spellpower and maybe even a magic school?
Well, either way, I don't think I should be arguing - if people start picking spell power over knowledge, my games will get more difficult
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted March 22, 2006 09:45 PM |
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I gain a spellpoint every day...with treasure arties like charm and talisman even 2 or 3 a day....u will refill till 10...me till 20 or 30..
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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TNT_Addict
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Beautiful Liar
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posted March 22, 2006 09:49 PM |
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Quote:
Well, either way, I don't think I should be arguing - if people start picking spell power over knowledge, my games will get more difficult
 Now I know where I went wrong all those years!!!
Russ couldn't you say it sooner, just my crappy luck...
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Please
click and help me out!! Thanks!!
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Russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted March 22, 2006 11:14 PM |
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Quote:
Now I know where I went wrong all those years!!!
Russ couldn't you say it sooner, just my crappy luck...
Nah, it isn't luck - you suck
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maretti
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 22, 2006 11:17 PM |
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My point of view:
On templates like jebus, extreme 1 or 2 and blockbuster which are very popular you break into a t-area at some point. In the first couple of weeks you dont rely on damagespells so you only need power for duration. If you have 1 or 2 in power it can be a good idea to pick power but otherwise you dont need it. By the time you break you normally have build up your hero to about lvl 10 - 15, you have found some minor arts for power and knowledge and visited some star axis and gardens of revelation. So as an example you have 6 power and knowledge and 3 schools of magic.
So what is best 9 power and 60 spellpoints or 6 power and 90 spellpoints? You go into an area where you cant expect to find any towns or wells and you need to use 5 to 10 spellpoint pr. tough battle, and there will be many tough battles. Even if you find a town or a well you might run out of spellpoints again. Therefore the most important thing is to have as many spellpoints as possible since 6 in power is enough for duration. At some point you will probably find some relics which boots your stats bigtime and when you get stats like 24 24 20(+3) 20(+3) it really dosent matter with those exstra 3 power or not. If you have implo its most likely heavy enough to do the damage you need. Whats important is that you have some spellpoints left (could be 12 for tp, 16 for res, 50 for 2 implos if you suddenly meet, could be 5 or 10 for a massspell in a tough battle).
On balance or panic you will very rarely win because of your better spellpower. Those temps are about mass spells.
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck
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Russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted March 22, 2006 11:36 PM |
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6 SP = you may need to cast mass slow twice. 9 SP = you aren't likely to need that, so you'll save 4 mana in each of your first big fights until you pick up the big arties. If you need to cast spells like blind in one of those tough fights, spell duration is even more important.
I do see your point about balance temp though. On the other hand - I've never had problems refilling my mana on balance, so I always had the mana to fight the map, and it ain't like you need tons of knowledge for those mass spells in the final fight. At least you can get some potential use from the spell power. The extra knowledge will simply go to waste.
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maretti
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 22, 2006 11:38 PM |
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Imo 6 spellpower is enough for a massspell in 9 out of 10 battles. Besides you will most likely get more power pretty fast.
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck
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dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
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posted March 23, 2006 02:59 AM |
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Edited by dimis on 22 Mar 2006
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My current point of view ...
First of all I want to state my point of view:
"I want the maximum power I can get with a decent amount of knowledge." Yeap, that's me!
What is the exact meaning of the above? I can't say for sure. But since the question posed on this thread is general, I 'll try to be generic.
Usually, as Russ said, I don't carry a spellbook with me on the very first week. Of course there are exceptions. E.g. on a recent game I had on vortex template, I saw on day 1 with my scouts a mine guarded by around 20 gold golems. What I did was that I built a mage guild on my main town, acquired a book for Orrin and went over and took the mine with 2 blessings that lasted for two rounds each on my pikemen (On my way to the mine there was a tower where I picked up +1 POWER). This made me have an extra income of 1000 gold right from day 1 (plus leveling up my hero and more comfortable play for the entire first week at least). However, this is an exception to the rule. What I do want is my main (might) having Power at least 2-3 and Knowledge at least 2 on the second week (Castle heroes don't have a problem, but there are heroes that experience problems with their Knowledge) and if there wasn't the mine on the above example I wouldn't have used my option of choosing between Power or Knowledge so early.
Moreover, depending on the template I know what to actually expect from my opponent by watching his stats in the tavern. So, if there is a choice between Power or Knowledge, it is 95+% that there is no choice actually! I 'll pick Power instead of Knowledge.
On very rare cases do I pick up Knowledge - i.e. not having a Knowledge of 2 or 3 at a particular timing (e.g. breaking for a third area) or my Knowledge is very low in contrast to what I see from the tavern for my opponent and the final battle is not far away... (However, if my main has a Knowledge of around 10 and is a might hero, there is absolutely, totally and strictly no chance of me picking up Knowledge instead of Power )
I really can't explain it in a better way, since I don't know (yet ...  ) much about the various templates, yet as days go by I get the feeling of the template and the richness it provides and my decisions are based on the specific characteristics of the map and the territory that I see but have not yet visited (broke into).
As for the other example of 9 Power and 60 full Spell Points versus 6 Power and 90 full Spell Points, I really can not say much. It entirely depends on the map (among others size / size of treasure area), yet from my minor experience I would prefer 9 Power and 6 Knowledge possibly due to my Power-syndrome (the ratio Power / Knowledge suits better to my tastes on stats with 9 Power and 6 Knowledge). I agree with Maretti that for most battles 6 power is enough, but I think we are missing the point (and I also think that 60 Spell Points are more than enough for any treasure area - did anyone mention a well nearby? ). The final battle (primary aim) won't last more than 4-5 rounds and 6 Knowledge is more than enough for that purpose on most M/L maps (and 2 random XL that I 've played so far). So why not having the most you can get for damaging spells just in case haste/slow/cure/shield/etc are not the only ones used?
P.S.: Do you all make mage guilds level 5 that often on your games (random M/L templates)? On the very first, do you pick Wisdom so often in your games and Knowledge is that much mandatory for the costly spells? I am asking that because I start feeling a little bit alien with this conversation ...
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The empty set
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william
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
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posted March 23, 2006 08:27 AM |
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I Like having lots of Power, but without Knowledge, then it is useless, as you wont be able to cast a spell or any spells for that matter.
You need knowledge to cast high level spells, like chain Lightning or Implosion, so I like having LOTS of Power but also some knowledge.
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