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| Thread: Power or Knowlege |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
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posted March 23, 2006 02:25 PM |
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Edited by dimis on 23 Mar 2006
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Poor templates
Quote:
On balance or panic you will very rarely win because of your better spellpower. Those temps are about mass spells.
Another way of seeing that is that mass spells are also very cheap - in contrast to Implosion, Summoning Elementals, etc ... So, this statement is also an argument in favour of Power instead of Knowledge because you might need one good strike with a Lightning Bolt (far more common than Chain Lightning and Implosion on those templates - again from my minor experience) just to get rid of some useless stack of your opponent which might be used to receive the retaliation from one of your "tanks", or exhibit something similar as Russ described earlier with Malekith.
One more example: Suppose you are able to cast Expert Resurrection. Would you prefer the 6 SP / 9K combo or 9 SP / 6K combo? I would certainly pick the latter because in the final battle if the timing is correct those extra resurrected troops can decide the outcome. You can cast 2 Resurrections and 2 massive spells and also have some Spell Points in the end.
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The empty set
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Russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted March 23, 2006 05:21 PM |
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Quote:
P.S.: Do you all make mage guilds level 5 that often on your games (random M/L templates)? On the very first, do you pick Wisdom so often in your games and Knowledge is that much mandatory for the costly spells? I am asking that because I start feeling a little bit alien with this conversation ...
Mage guild level 5 is relatively rare on most templates.
However, here are the ways of getting the big spells without wisdom/mage guild:
1) Books
2) Spellbinder's hat
3) Scrolls (if allowed)
Why do we pick wisdom on rich temps? Because of spell pandoras.
What would be the other reason for picking wisdom? Because we have no choice. Unless you've had wisdom offered earlier, you'll always get it offered when you reach level 6. Often this means you'll have 2 expert skills, so you'll be forced to choose between wisdom and something like first aid. And well... most of us prefer wisdom 
Anyways, here are the ways to get the big spells without level 5 guild (but with wisdom):
1) Spell pandoras
2) Expert Scholar + level 4 spell specialist
3) Level 3 spells aren't considered to be big spells, but animate dead from the shrine is priceless if you have some skeletons or other necro troops.
On top of that - rampart and dungeon will require level 3 mage guilds to upgrade their level 7. If you already have level 3 - wtf not build level 4?
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Xarfax111
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
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posted March 23, 2006 05:38 PM |
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...well...i still NEVER take knowledge. Those are wasted skilling points.
If knowledge really would rule then the Wizards are the unnoted No.1 class of the game. 
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maretti
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 23, 2006 06:21 PM |
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I still think Solmyr is the best hero of this game and I know that many people agree with me. He gets a lot of knowledge to his chain, and noone can survive 8-10 chains in a row. This proves that knowledge rules!!!
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck
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dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
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posted March 23, 2006 08:05 PM |
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Edited by dimis on 23 Mar 2006
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The reasons you refer to Russ are among the reasons I don't like rich templates. I just don't like extremely good relics. On the other hand, I do agree with you that when you get crappy skills offered on the very first 6 levels you are forced to advance the two you have and hence you turn up prefering Wisdom which is the most logical and good on big maps. However, if I get a usefull skill very early in the game (let's say offence) I do pick that skill without upgrading my first two. Of course, the worst case scenario is for the machine to provide me in the row Logistics and Earth where I am "forced" to pick both and I turn up with a level 4 hero and 5 secondary skills - but this is the worst case scenario. Usually, I have 3 or 4 skills when I reach level 6, meaning that I won't prefer wisdom at that particular time. By having though 4 skills, at level 12 I'll pick wisdom if in the meantime Earth or Logistics do not appear - so the problem you are referring to I postpone it for another 6 levels and I think that during my hero levelling-up these 11 first levels Offence/Armorer/Tactics are going to be more crucial than Wisdom.
Now, regarding what I 've written above, I was partially influenced by the games I had these last 2 weeks - random medium on balance, where game is over by week 3 - meaning non-upgraded Dragons in order to have a full army and hence mage guild level 4 is far away - not to mention that I prefer expert water/air in place of wisdom at that time. Of course on L+ maps, I think that wisdom is mandatory because of the reasons you refer to (yet, again on Balance on my last L-no under Wisdom wasn't needed to make the final battle - just an indication for me that Wisdom might not be necessary even on that size), plus your hero is going to have more Power and Knowledge which you must exploit somehow... And yes, if you have upgraded dragons and a mage guild level 3 it is good to build a mage guild level 4 - who knows Resurrection might come up? But I don't think this is the standard scenario; at least from my experience on random maps.
As for the Solmyr-related stuff I hope this thread does not turn into one more thread that belongs in the volcanic wastelands.
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The empty set
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maretti
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 23, 2006 08:37 PM |
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Quote:
Of course, the worst case scenario is for the machine to provide me in the row Logistics and Earth where I am "forced" to pick both and I turn up with a level 4 hero and 5 secondary skills - but this is the worst case scenario.
I give up.
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted March 23, 2006 08:47 PM |
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It's amazing how much disagreement there is on this.
I said earlier I always pick power early on. I just played a map where I really wished I picked knowledge instead.
I was something like level 18 in the middle of the desert on extreme. I still only had power 5 and knowledge 1, including arts. My scout didn't show anything promising up ahead and I spent the night next to horde naga queens with 1/3 movement left to get one more point for mass slow.
It's always a gamble because you never know what the future will bring. The case above, normally I would have had more knowledge through levels or arts, but not this time. You have to toss the dice and live with it.
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dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
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posted March 23, 2006 08:47 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Of course, the worst case scenario is for the machine to provide me in the row Logistics and Earth where I am "forced" to pick both and I turn up with a level 4 hero and 5 secondary skills - but this is the worst case scenario.
I give up.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted March 23, 2006 08:54 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Of course, the worst case scenario is for the machine to provide me in the row Logistics and Earth where I am "forced" to pick both and I turn up with a level 4 hero and 5 secondary skills - but this is the worst case scenario.
I give up.
Lmaooo....i had the same sentence going through my head...a page earlier....lol
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
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posted March 23, 2006 09:15 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Of course, the worst case scenario is for the machine to provide me in the row Logistics and Earth where I am "forced" to pick both and I turn up with a level 4 hero and 5 secondary skills - but this is the worst case scenario.
I give up.
Well, besides all the fun that this sentence provokes (which I didn't realize the time I was writing ) it has happened to 2 of my games on medium/no-under maps to select all 5 skills with my main and when I had to brake I had no expertize on any magic school. And at least on 1 of them I made the final battle without expert Earth... Anyway, I was trying to explain my non-preference on wisdom early in the game, though I like that skill, and in a way backup my previous sayings.
Now that we all laughed and our mood is better , can the Knowledge addicts explain a little bit more their preference?
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The empty set
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted March 23, 2006 09:27 PM |
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Quote:
...can the Knowledge addicts explain a little bit more their preference?
We tried.....but if u read all the posts (including yours) of the power-lovers, u will see they mostly refer to either just endfight situations, or to maps which end start week 3. Or to maps with many towns, where u can do your "poormans townportal" many times.
Try these on Frozen dragons, Extreme, Extreme 2 and similar templates. You donīt need much power on these templates when fighting the big stacks, coz when facing 100 Ancient Behemots, implo with power 9 instead of 6 helps nothing. But prolly berzerk does, forcefield(!), blind and such. But u canīt go home every 2nd fight to refill spellpoints...and your chances to find a well in all these treasure areas are very very low...also towns...
But in these treasure areas, i will find my good arties which raise my POWER for the endfight....but i need much KNOWLEDGE to do many of these fights in SHORTER time than my opponent does, so my stats will raise FASTER than his....
And again....i am not talking about Jebus....or M maps....
Or think about "natives" style, where your chaining will be very low...so it could be u will be back home again in week 3...lol
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted March 23, 2006 09:39 PM |
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Somewhat off-subject.
Could someone explain "poor man's TP" and "rich man's TP". I thought poor man's meant poor in spells, like you don't have TP spell. Angelito used it like poor man's means you have the spell, but "poor" because you don't have to re-buy the hero.
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maretti
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 23, 2006 09:41 PM |
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I dont play medium maps so everything I say is about L or XL. What Angelo just explained goes for jebus too. You enter the t-area with medium stats and cant expect to find a well or a town. Even if you find a town you might waste a lot of time going there (and after the break you cant afford to waste any time) or if you are red you might be attacked in the town. Then you find some arts that boost your stats. These arts help your power but not your spellpoints untill you refill (which might never happen). Therefore its better to have some spellpoints left and a little lower power than to be out of spellpoints and have higher power.
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck
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maretti
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 23, 2006 09:45 PM |
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Quote:
Somewhat off-subject.
Could someone explain "poor man's TP" and "rich man's TP". I thought poor man's meant poor in spells, like you don't have TP spell. Angelito used it like poor man's means you have the spell, but "poor" because you don't have to re-buy the hero.
Its the same thing. Normally called poor mans tp but you could argue it should be called rich mans tp since you have to be rich (cost 2500 gold) to use it.
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck
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Russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted March 24, 2006 04:32 PM |
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Quote:
Its the same thing. Normally called poor mans tp but you could argue it should be called rich mans tp since you have to be rich (cost 2500 gold) to use it.
Yep. You have to be quite rich to afford 2500 gp just to travel a few screens. I have no idea who decided to call it "poor man's portal". As far as I know, if you just say "poor man" - it will always refer to money. You could say "he is a poor backetball player" (i.e. he sucks at backetball), but just "poor" pretty much means he doesn't have much money. Not spells, not luck - money.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted March 24, 2006 05:16 PM |
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The saying "Poor mans...." is in german "...für Arme".
The meaning is the same...The rich man has the posibility to do something, while the poor man has to think about another way to get the same result. The "poor" is just refered to the missing thing (townportal spell), respectively to the fact a poor man canīt afford the needed "thing" (missing spellpoints for example...).
Bob Marley = reggae god
Eddie Grant = poor mans Bob Marley...
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted March 24, 2006 05:36 PM |
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Ok, then how do you call someone who can't afford "rich man's portal"?
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Xarfax111
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
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posted March 24, 2006 09:55 PM |
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Hehe Angelito i DO have the same problem each time i want to translate this "Arme" meaning.
Just 2 points i want to throw in for ya lousy discussing bastards (there goes my QP jk):
1. Jebus has enough towns and wells in the middle, so thats not a good example. With little brain u can find them with view air or earth even without having the schools.
2. If you take Wisdom SHOULD NOT relate to the template size, it should relate to the things you may can get out of a pandoras box and especially how they are protected. There are templates with lots of spell boxes ...so get wisdom early...there are templates that especially exclude spell boxes and do have a lot of Utopias and scrolls = dont get Wisdom at all or very late.
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dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
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posted March 25, 2006 06:56 PM |
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Just a comment
Well, regarding Frozen Dragons, Extreme and Extreme II I have almost no clue. Perhaps I 've played Extreme and/or Extreme II a couple of games, but that was almost a year ago when I learnt the meaning of the world "template" in Heroes! As for the 'natives' style game, ... I have no clue at all!
Anyway, I believe that we mostly defend Knowledge or Power influenced by our latest games, and hence the truth might be somewhere in between. After all, in order to backup one's story, specific examples should be given. But are these plain examples or the circumstances where someone should prefer Knowledge instead of Power? I believe it is the latter since I have a feeling that both Angelito and Maretti seem to propose that their preference of Knowledge in place of Power occurs on specific situations (the generators and sizes they prefer to play).
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doom3d
Known Hero
Avatar of general Z
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posted April 09, 2007 07:36 PM |
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Edited by doom3d at 19:37, 09 Apr 2007.
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A little reflection from my side..
If You have DD+exp. air and want to attack a nearby castle, then You will need 80 mana for the traveling, some mana for the siege, and some others for strike back by your opponent. It means at least 120 mana, 12+ Knowledge w/o intelligence.
You may wish to visit some of your Towns at the end of the turn to exchange "tired" stacks, apply Vortex/Stables bonus, so it's better to go for 150+ mana.
I had a strike back after taking my opponent's main castle. Killing the catapult and mass spells(nobody had exp. water) followed by tons of resurrection/implo/shower, elemental war.. I started at 380 mana, 15 titans+140 mages+ the rest, and ended up with 0 mana+ 1 Titan standing at 3HP. Battle won by me.
(about the map: we had 4 Tower against 4 Castle, 32 Towns in total)
OK, in most of the cases 120-150 mana per battle is enough. (mass slow, meteor showers/chain lightnings, summon+haste, blind+resurrection..)
So in SoD I try to reach exp. wisdom+earth+air+TP+DD +150 mana ASAP.
After that I have full speed, and I can concentrate on Power.
In WoG I switch ON Masters of Spellcasting(normal, or random version), and "Shamanic running" spell also. => Knowledge has prio 1.
If I play SoD, and DD+TP banned etc., then I have no choice, I have to go for power..
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