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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Value for Money: L1 vs L7 with a Hack
Thread: Value for Money: L1 vs L7 with a Hack This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
DonIgnacio
DonIgnacio

Tavern Dweller
newly hooked strategist
posted April 02, 2006 03:23 PM

Value for Money: L1 vs L7 with a Hack

So you have 15000 gold to invest in creatures. Suppose there are unlimited armies of Behemoths and Goblins for hire.

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1337void
1337void

Tavern Dweller
posted April 03, 2006 03:36 PM

Quote:
So you have 15000 gold to invest in creatures. Suppose there are unlimited armies of Behemoths and Goblins for hire.


300 goblins vs 5 ancient behemots. there really is no competition, the behemoths are easily more useful. In adittion to better survivabilty they also do tons of damage against anyone while goblins are only good against low defense enemies.
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DonIgnacio
DonIgnacio

Tavern Dweller
newly hooked strategist
posted April 03, 2006 05:03 PM

... second try

OOOPS. Somehow something really unfinished got posted here by this nooobie. Sorry for that. Let's try again.

The thing I came across probably doesn't work with behemoths or their ancient kin and those super useless goblins.

But for more expensive L7 creatures and tougher L1 creatures (3 damage when blessed, 6 or better HP) things do look different, if and only if, you have expert offence and specialize in offence as well (Crag Hack). As previous threads have pointed out, the 60% extra damage at Level 20 are calculated relative to base damage, not A/D-adjusted damage.

30000 gold will get you 10 angels, not even counting in the gems. That is 2000 HP. 30000 gold would also buy you 500 pikemen with 5000 HP. I know there are only 14 pikemen and 1 angel growth per week, but you may just have neglected hiring those lowly troops for a while. So on HP alone, those pikemen already are pretty tough.

Now angels don't need blessing for constant maximum damage. Not giving an unfair advantage to the pikemen we can calculate the base damage at 10 * 50 = 500 and 2 * 500 = 1000 HP respectively.

Next comes A/D differnce. The 500 go up by (20-5) * 5 = 75% to 875. And the 1000 go down by (4-20) * 2.5 = -40% to 600. Now at least those Angels are dealing a bit more damage.

But the extra 60% that our Crag Hack gets are based on the unadjusted damage. So for the angels we end up with 875 + 300 = 1175 and the pikemen hand out 600 + 600 = 1200. So they become superior both on HP and damage. If you do bless the pikemen, the angels are completely overpowered.

Another example could be Trogs vs. Blackies and 40,000 gold to spend. Just a quick summary:
10 blackies vs 800 trogs
3000 vs 4000 health
450 vs 1600 average base damage
945 vs 760 A/D adjusted damage
270 vs 960 expert specialist offence bonus
1215 vs 1720 total damage
Again, Bless would be a real blessing.




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dr_st
dr_st

Tavern Dweller
posted April 03, 2006 05:28 PM

Isn't it 10% per level for attack and -5% per level for defense?

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Russ
Russ


Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
posted April 03, 2006 05:30 PM

Quote:
Isn't it 10% per level for attack and -5% per level for defense?
That's homm 2.

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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted April 03, 2006 06:40 PM

Russ...to be honest...i think u miss the point of the thread opener...
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Russ
Russ


Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
posted April 03, 2006 07:09 PM
Edited by Russ on 3 Apr 2006

Never mind. I've deleted my post.
Where does the info about offense specialty being applied to the base damage come from?

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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted April 03, 2006 07:20 PM

From this thread maybe?
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1337void
1337void

Tavern Dweller
posted April 03, 2006 08:11 PM

Ok i did a test to check it out. Turns out that pikemen indeed deal more damage, especially agaisnt monsters with high def. Against other pikemen the pikemen did 1500 dmg while angels did 1200. Against chaos hydras the pikemen did around 1200 i think and angels did 800. The angels' better defense helps em out though as they only took 30000 dmg while the pikemen took 50000.

The difference isnt as big as you made it out to be considering that the angels benefit from the extra speed and they wont suffer losses against smaller enemy armies while the pikemen will.

In actual gameplay the angels still are better because you never get enough pikemen to make a difference with em. Its kinda like those pointless 1vs1 fights against lvl 7s...
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Russ
Russ


Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
posted April 03, 2006 10:00 PM

Quote:
From this thread maybe?
Hmm... I've read it a long time ago, but I guess I've never looked at it in that way, this is new to me.
So, offense specialty is 100% independent of the defense skill? So, the pikes on level 50 Hack with 4 attack (just assume he had very bad luck will do more than 100% of their base damage to an AA stack on a hero with 99 defense?
Does this also mean that the gremlins on level 20 Orrin with 2 attack will do more than their base damage to an AA stack on a hero with 99 defense?

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supersonic
supersonic


Famous Hero
being digested. E=mc^2, s=vt
posted April 03, 2006 11:01 PM

How about sprites and phoenixes and 1 000 000 bucks?
I would balance between buying sprites and phenixes.
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Big, fat, naughty. Potential girlfriend - pm me.

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Meph
Meph


Adventuring Hero
Rampaging Rampart
posted April 04, 2006 12:03 AM

Lets say we got Crag Hack, and the chance to buy either Behemoths or Goblins.

Lets put two Hacks against each other and one have the Goblins, the other one the Behemoths.

The Behemoths would win. Why? Outwait, first strike. The Goblins would be tremendously weakened, not being able to retaliate with enough power.

That would go for every castle.

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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted April 04, 2006 12:27 AM

Quote:
...Does this also mean that the gremlins on level 20 Orrin with 2 attack will do more than their base damage to an AA stack on a hero with 99 defense?

In melee yes..
Offense = raises hand-to-hand inflicted damage
Armorer = decreases ALL recieved damage
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DonIgnacio
DonIgnacio

Tavern Dweller
newly hooked strategist
posted April 04, 2006 01:05 AM

The angels would get wiped out, even if they get first strike. If my math isn't complete nonsense, then the battle would work out as follows:

10 Angels do 1175 damage to 500 pikemen. 117 pikemen perish and 383 survive. The remaining 383 pikemen deal 919 damage, killing 4 angels on retaliation. Then they get blessed and get next strike for 1378 damage, taking care of all the remaining angels. Wow, that fight would be shorter than I thought.

Now our typical level 20 Crag probably has at least 6 better attack than defence, fighting an identical self or most other non-Barbarians around. I've neglected that on the A/D calculation so for. The A/D bonus for the angels becomes +100% for +500 damage and -25% for -250 damage for the pikemen. The totals then are:

Angels at 500 + 500 + 300 = 1200
Pikes at 1000 - 250 + 600 = 1350

Surprisingly enough, the pikemen benefit more from a positive A/D difference between the participating heroes. So to boil this down to some conclusion, I'd hire big stacks of pikemen, centaurs or gnolls. The sprites would even be helpful, if they can get first strike with no retaliation against the behemoths for example. And just since somebody asked, here is the calculation for phoenix vs sprites.

12000 Gold
6 phx vs 400 sprites
1200 vs 1200 health
210 vs 800 base damage
+200 vs -320 A/D adjustments
+126 vs +480 expert special offence
536 vs 960 total damage

If the phoenix go first and get blessed, that wipes out more than half the sprites. The remaining 196 sprites could retaliate with average damage (2) and then get blessed for full damage (3). This still deals 1176 HP damage and kills all but one phoenix. You figure out the rest, including subsequent self resurrection.

DonIgnacio of course is affiliated with the Holy Spanish Inquisistion. You never expect that just around your coal shack!

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DonIgnacio
DonIgnacio

Tavern Dweller
newly hooked strategist
posted April 04, 2006 01:23 AM
Edited by DonIgnacio on 3 Apr 2006

Master Gremlin vs Titan + Orrin

I hope this is not taking my into the realm of utter speculation. Just assuming that expert special archery works just like offence, thus giving +100% to BASE damage at hero level 20. Then the comparison becomes:
50000 Gold
10 titans vs. 1250 masters
3000 vs. 5000 health
Both blessed
600 vs 2500 base damage
+630 vs -1313 A/D
600 vs 2500 archery special
1830 vs 3687 total

In light of the results and the disappointing bonus for creature specialists, I'd be tempted to say: Ivor (or Vokial for that matter) sucks, but Crag and Orrin rule.

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1337void
1337void

Tavern Dweller
posted April 04, 2006 03:15 PM

First of all, you cant bless titans. And for gods sake, why would you possibly bless lvl 1 units (except gremlins) when they would usually benefit a lot more from haste as their speeds are usually crappy.
Second, you cant compare how good one is and how good the other is by arranging a duel between em. You gotta have em both attack enemy units and compare the damage they do and how much damage they can soak, which is more similar to actual combat situations.
You can dream all you want but in the real game you cant get those powerstacks of lvl 1 creatures unless youre a necro. And in necro's case, its OLD NEWS. WOW extra extra! skeles kick ass.

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Russ
Russ


Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
posted April 04, 2006 05:12 PM

Quote:
10 Angels do 1175 damage to 500 pikemen. 117 pikemen perish and 383 survive. The remaining 383 pikemen deal 919 damage, killing 4 angels on retaliation. Then they get blessed and get next strike for 1378 damage, taking care of all the remaining angels. Wow, that fight would be shorter than I thought.
Have anyone noticed that when people calculate those things, they forget that their opponents can make intelligent moves and cast spells?
If you really want both of them to be able to cast spells, then this is what will happen (assuming that both sides can counter blind):
round 1: cast clone, angels wait, clone hits pikes, "pikes get blessed" and move, angels hit pikes.
rounds 2-3: curse/bless, curse/bless. Angels fly back, wait and hit pikes. 149 blessed pikes kill 2 angels.
7/10 angels stay
ANGELS WIN

Since I think it is best to not use any spells in those calculations because the spells are too subjective and depend on too many factors, lets assume that the red orb is present.
Round 1: angels wait, pikes move, 10 angels kill 117 pikes, pikes retal and kill 1 angel stack (angels are split into several stacks, obviously!). 9 vs 383
Rounds 2-3: angels fly back, wait, kill 105. pikes kill 1 angel. 8 vs 278
Rounds 4-5: 7 vs 185
Rounds 6-7: 6 vs 103
Pikes can't kill any more angels after that.
6/10 angels stay
ANGELS WIN

However, in a real battle there will be other units faster than pikes, so in a fight with a red orb it will go somewhat like this:
round 1: angel's army waits, pikes move, fodder hits pikes and gets killed, the rest of angel's army kills pikes.
10/10 angels stay
ANGELS WIN

And don't forget about the shooters! Here is another scenario:
rounds 1-3: pikes get shot then finished off by the angels before making it to the other side.
10/10 angels stay
ANGELS WIN
Quote:
First of all, you cant bless titans.
Please get your facts straight before posting. Thank you.

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Binabik
Binabik


Responsible
Legendary Hero
posted April 04, 2006 11:06 PM

Quote:
Have anyone noticed that when people calculate those things, they forget that their opponents can make intelligent moves and cast spells?

Absolutely true. But the thing about this kind of topic is that you have to seperate the two things. First you have to look at the raw facts about damage. Is it true, or not true? Is it a small difference in damage or a lot? After you figure out how it works, then you can look at tactics and decide how it affects things. But you can never consider tactics without knowing the facts first.

And with tactics, you are doing the same thing by isolating the pikes and angels. I mean if you're talking tactics, are you really going to concentrate everything on killing pikes and let the other stacks do what they want? Again, you must know what you're dealing with before you can think about tactics. You have to know if the pikes are something you can ignore or make them a higher priority in your game plan.

I think this topic is interesting. I knew Offense applied to base damage, but I never really considered how it affects lvl 1 vs lvl 7.  In a way, it's similar to luck, bless spell and some others that have more affect on lvl 1 than lvl 7.

Level 1 hoarding is the reason 3DO patched the original game to prevent hoarding from the tavern. 300 Master Grems day 1 is pretty darn strong.

BTW, 1337void. I keep thinking you are me when I see your avatar.
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Russ
Russ


Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
posted April 04, 2006 11:33 PM
Edited by Russ on 4 Apr 2006

Quote:
And with tactics, you are doing the same thing by isolating the pikes and angels. I mean if you're talking tactics, are you really going to concentrate everything on killing pikes and let the other stacks do what they want? Again, you must know what you're dealing with before you can think about tactics. You have to know if the pikes are something you can ignore or make them a higher priority in your game plan.
Nope, I am not doing the same thing I just didn't put some details which I considered obvious. With a red orb present (I already said why I don't like to take the spells into account) the pikes will only have 4 speed. This means that they will be crawling through the battlefield for at least 3 rounds. During that time I will take care of the rest of the creatures with the angels, shooters, etc. By the time the pikes make it to my side, I will be able to concentrate my firepower on them.
Also - pay close attention to this topic, the question here is: if you could hire UNLIMITED creatures with your gold, what would you hire? In this case it is possible that I only have angels (because I spent all my money on angels) and my opponent would only have pikes (because he spent all his money on pikes). So, there may not be any other stacks.
I think all 4 situations I described fit perfectly in THIS topic and I don't think they have too many assumptions or omissions.

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supersonic
supersonic


Famous Hero
being digested. E=mc^2, s=vt
posted April 04, 2006 11:44 PM
Edited by supersonic on 4 Apr 2006

Okay, you have 20 000 gold and you can either buy:
ancient behemots (okay, you also have 400 crystals)
cyclop kings
orc chieftains
hobgoblins
(provided that there are unlimited populations of them)
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Big, fat, naughty. Potential girlfriend - pm me.

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