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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Necropolis power deficiency !
Thread: Necropolis power deficiency ! This thread is 23 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 10 ... 19 20 21 22 23 · «PREV / NEXT»
alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted May 11, 2006 11:19 AM bonus applied.
Edited by alcibiades at 11:21, 11 May 2006.

Necropolis Power problem

To cast some light on, whether this "power problem" was real, I did a lot of statistics on the different units and so on. I think this following plot is a very interesting one:



What I did was this: For each fraction (Haven, Inferno etc.) I calculated what I call the Powergrowth of the city pr. week on each level. The "Power" is the numerical power value calculated on this site Age Of Heroes in the creature section. The "Powergrowth" (PWG) is the power of the creature multiplied with the weekly growth - that is PWG = Power * Growth. I did this for each city on each level, and I normalized the figures to the maximum value at each level - that is, I divided with the maximum number at this level (for instance, on first level, the numbers came out 1540, 1200, 1680, 2065, 2100 and 1630, so I divided each value with 2100 to give the relative (normalized) values of 0.73, 0.57, 0.80, 0.98, 1.00, 0.78). What this tells us, is, that on first level, the Academy gets the better of the deal, while the inferno is pretty bad off. This might not exactly be the full truth, because the Imp special ability is pretty nasty, but it gives an image. I've done this for all 7 levels as well as a totalized weekly powergrowth.

What this shows: The interesting thing of this is, that the Necropolis comes out with the lowest number. Actually, it's not too bad, but we can see that it's 7th level creatures is extremely underpowered. Actually, what I find really interesting is this:

- The Necropolis Powergrowth Deficiency when compared to the 4 strongest cities (Academy, Dungeon, Haven, Sylvan) is 1860 points/week. This is calculated without 'castle' effect, which meens than with a castly giving doubled weakly growth, it's a defficiency of 3716 points.

- The Power of the Spectral Dragon is 3905.

- Thus, if the Necropolis received 3 Spectral Dragons pr. week instead of 2, they would be right within the average!

Conclusion: There should be an (expensive) creature boost dwelling, that gives one extra Spectral Dragon pr. week, for a total growth of 3 instead of 2 (with castle). This would bring the Necropolis right on level with the other cities. Of course, this is without considering the power boost the Necromancers get from their Necromancy skill, but considering the generally week level 1-3 creatures of this town (the have the lowest powergrowth at level 2 and 3) they seem underpowered. However, they do have the largest powergrowth at levels 4 though 6 to compensate for this!


The Inferno: The Inferno also seems to supper from a power defficiency to a lesser extent. The Power Growth is below average with 2574 points, which corresponds to 1 Pit Lord pr. week. Perhaps the gating skill and the Devil's "summon pit-lord" ability will make up for this to some extent - however, this is an activated ability, using one of the Devils turns. Have anyone had problems with the Inferno being underpowered when playing?
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Ellderon
Ellderon


Adventuring Hero
Lightbringer
posted May 12, 2006 12:55 AM

Quote:
In early game necros are crap(in beta; i don't know the full game). I had over 40 skeletons, over 20 zombies and 2 ghosts. I fought with militia and won with 15 zombies left. Reason skeletons do 1(!) damage and few hit points. Ghosts didn't survive because their ability don't works realy often. And zombies survived only because of their high hit points and they also do 1 damage so it was a looooooooooooong fight. I think that zombies should have damage 1-2 and skeletons should have also 1-2. In previous games they were good because of their damage 2-3. They should also have such damage in Heroes V. Just my opinion.



Necro is not weak..

Play a big map against a Necro nad when you face a opponent with 1500 skeleton achers you WILL curse the day you were born .
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okiesolidarity
okiesolidarity


Known Hero
right brain/left brain wizard
posted May 12, 2006 07:44 PM

it's not hard saying that necro is underpowered with just a look at a weekly creature growth chart, but let's not forget the following:

Necro DOES have a building that boosts dragon production by 1 per week;

It also has a building that converts other troop types to the equivalent level necro troops (this is extremely useful mid-game when a lot of the troops that may join you are lvl 4 and 5);

Necromancy provides a very solid boost to skeleton growth, eventually dwarfing the amount of skeletons produced in town per week;

There is a building that boosts the Necromancy skill even more, and it's cumulative; if you have 3 Necro towns, that is potentially 30% more skeletons resurrected.  Enormous armies of lvl 1-3 troops become goldmines;

There are numerous abilities that buff Necromancy even more:
-Necromancy: Eternal Servitude- allows you to bring back a portion of your own dead troops as skeletons
-Necromancy: Skeleton Archers- resurrects the upgrade (now ranged)
-Enlightenment: Lord of the Undead- adds +5% to the number resurrected skeletons
-Leadership: Herald of Death- automatically changes any joining troops to the undead troop of its level;

Let's not forget about the spell "raise dead", a level 2 Summoning spell that resurrects undead troops permanantly.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted May 13, 2006 12:06 AM

Quote:
it's not hard saying that necro is underpowered with just a look at a weekly creature growth chart, but let's not forget the following:

Necro DOES have a building that boosts dragon production by 1 per week;

It also has a building that converts other troop types to the equivalent level necro troops (this is extremely useful mid-game when a lot of the troops that may join you are lvl 4 and 5);

Necromancy provides a very solid boost to skeleton growth, eventually dwarfing the amount of skeletons produced in town per week;

There is a building that boosts the Necromancy skill even more, and it's cumulative; if you have 3 Necro towns, that is potentially 30% more skeletons resurrected.  Enormous armies of lvl 1-3 troops become goldmines;

There are numerous abilities that buff Necromancy even more:
-Necromancy: Eternal Servitude- allows you to bring back a portion of your own dead troops as skeletons
-Necromancy: Skeleton Archers- resurrects the upgrade (now ranged)
-Enlightenment: Lord of the Undead- adds +5% to the number resurrected skeletons
-Leadership: Herald of Death- automatically changes any joining troops to the undead troop of its level;

Let's not forget about the spell "raise dead", a level 2 Summoning spell that resurrects undead troops permanantly.




Thanx for claryfying this! If there is indeed a dragon booster, I have no pitty at all for the necromancers - and if they've even increased the Skeleton Converter to be on a level pr. level basis, they might even be strongly overpowered in the late game. I think it would have been reasonable to cut off a level in the process - making 6th level creatures into liches and 7th level creatures into Wraiths - even that would be extremely powerfull! Anyway ... I still think it will be challenging to play Necromancer in the early game, because all the units through 1st til 3rd level are comperatively week - but perhaps the Necromance skill will balance this.
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Shauku83
Shauku83


Promising
Famous Hero
posted May 13, 2006 01:08 PM

The game is easier for Necro in the beginning, from my beta experience, when you do not have to worry about casualties as much as other players. Only aggressive way works, because that way you get more troops.. so you brake blocks faster and expand faster.

Dungeon and Inferno on the other hand have a really rough beginning...

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Hrushov17
Hrushov17


Adventuring Hero
posted May 13, 2006 01:40 PM

Quote:
The game is easier for Necro in the beginning, from my beta experience, when you do not have to worry about casualties as much as other players. Only aggressive way works, because that way you get more troops.. so you brake blocks faster and expand faster.

Dungeon and Inferno on the other hand have a really rough beginning...


Dungeon not really I usually tend not to have any casualties with dungeon at all and with inferno...the gating ability remember that I only lose some of the troops that I've summoned with gating so teh beggining for them is not so rough

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kreszantas
kreszantas


Adventuring Hero
TOH Coordinator
posted May 15, 2006 01:03 AM

Well not to mention the Herald of Death skill... ALL neutral creatures will be assimulated just like borg did into the army at the level of the creature that it is...

You start picking up extra high lvl creature with this skill is just the same as any other dipolmat does. That may prove intresting to see how it works out.
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted May 15, 2006 11:13 AM

Quote:
Well not to mention the Herald of Death skill... ALL neutral creatures will be assimulated just like borg did into the army at the level of the creature that it is...

You start picking up extra high lvl creature with this skill is just the same as any other dipolmat does. That may prove intresting to see how it works out.



Yes, that does seem like a very potent ability, especially since you no longer can have creatures wandering about without a hero, which makes the diplomacy skill much less useful (because you can't pick up creatures if your army is full). However, it is a subskill to Leadership, which in itself has nothing to offer the Necromancer's units, so I wonder how often you'll actually wanna use one precious skill slot on that.

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Wiseman
Wiseman


Known Hero
posted May 15, 2006 01:11 PM

Why do you think Leadership has nothing to offer to the Necromancer's units?



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Khan
Khan


Hired Hero
Order in Chaos
posted May 15, 2006 01:21 PM

Leadership affects morale and this means that it is wasted on your undead troops who are unaffected by both positive and negative morale.

Makes Leadership a choice only if you are going for the abilities associated with it.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted May 15, 2006 03:30 PM

Exactly ... they even discarded the nice feature of Heroes IV that leadership and luck was coupled into one skill.

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Betruger
Betruger


Known Hero
empowered mind
posted May 15, 2006 05:47 PM

Quote:
Exactly ... they even discarded the nice feature of Heroes IV that leadership and luck was coupled into one skill.


And thank gods for that. The luck skill in H5 is already very powerful.
Oh and by the way, does anyone knows what is the probability of luck damage to kick in? Say I have luck of 3, does it mean my creatures have 30% chance of inflicting double dmg?
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Common sense is not so common.

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kreszantas
kreszantas


Adventuring Hero
TOH Coordinator
posted May 15, 2006 05:54 PM

That is why they are trying to make leadership more valuable to the Necro town is to give it the ability to add to your army WITHOUT fighting everything and only getting a percentage of that fight.  Leadership now becomes a important skill.

Mass hordes of undead should demoralize a smaller neutral stack so they can be assimulated into the army by the heroes shear power and awe since the neutral army has "no leader" per say the hero become that and would be able to use a "leadership" skill the way it was meant to be in earlier versions of Heroes
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Arangar
Arangar


Famous Hero
Weak ranger - lost viking
posted May 15, 2006 06:37 PM

The luck bonus annoys me so much. Same with favored enemy. Why does luck give 2x the damage? It's just too much for any strategy game..
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Arangar
Norwegian viking
ranger of the north

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miru
miru


Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
posted May 15, 2006 09:03 PM

Quote:
The "Powergrowth" (PWG) is the power of the creature multiplied with the weekly growth - that is PWG = Power * Growth. I did this for each city on each level, and I normalized the figures to the maximum value at each level - that is, I divided with the maximum number at this level (for instance, on first level, the numbers came out 1540, 1200, 1680, 2065, 2100 and 1630, so I divided each value with 2100 to give the relative (normalized) values of 0.73, 0.57, 0.80, 0.98, 1.00, 0.78). What this tells us, is, that on first level, the Academy gets the better of the deal, while the inferno is pretty bad off. This might not exactly be the full truth, because the Imp special ability is pretty nasty, but it gives an image. I've done this for all 7 levels as well as a totalized weekly powergrowth.


I don have acces to AoH right now, so it may be explained there, but what do you mean by 'power'? The only stat close to that is 'spell power'.
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JustAFan
JustAFan

Tavern Dweller
posted May 15, 2006 11:14 PM

Guys.... That ability - non-necro creatures joining the army are transformed into NECRO CREATURES MATCHING THEIR LEVEL... so every unit u get u transform into one of yours but not ass in HoMM3 to skeletons, but to according level. U get 5 archangels from somewhere? U get 5 spectre dragons. Necro isn`t weak it will dominate with numbers! And we all know the most powerful in the game are archers and they have the only (I think) lvl1 archer... Remember Tower Gremlins, they were kinda strong!
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted May 16, 2006 01:28 AM

Quote:
Guys.... That ability - non-necro creatures joining the army are transformed into NECRO CREATURES MATCHING THEIR LEVEL... so every unit u get u transform into one of yours but not ass in HoMM3 to skeletons, but to according level. U get 5 archangels from somewhere? U get 5 spectre dragons. Necro isn`t weak it will dominate with numbers!


Uhm - that is only if they get that particular skill.

Quote:
And we all know the most powerful in the game are archers and they have the only (I think) lvl1 archer... Remember Tower Gremlins, they were kinda strong!


And no, they do not have the only lvl 1 ranged attacker - the Assassin and the Gremlin also have ranged attacks. And ranged units might be powerfull, but in the late game, you rarely found much use for your gremlins, onless they were reeeeeealy numerous. Of course, the skeletons are gonna be numerous, but it's not like in the good ol' days when my necromancer was equiped with a Cloak Of The Undead King and started raisnig Power Liches by the thousands.

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kreszantas
kreszantas


Adventuring Hero
TOH Coordinator
posted May 16, 2006 05:07 AM

I have to agree with alcibiades on this one... I was called a cheater in a ToH game when I arrived on the final day of a XL 200% H3 game with over 1000 powerliches (dont remeber the exact count), i had them in stacks of less than 175 each to make it seem less than what I really had.  But when my other army which was just as power on a secondary hero.  The player abruptly stopped the game and refused to complete the game...

Necro is totally about LONG games and NUMBERS...
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Vicheron
Vicheron


Known Hero
posted May 16, 2006 07:59 AM

Herald of Death seems pretty useless since the Holy Temple does the same thing.

The Necropolis in Heroes 5 is actually very similar to the Necropolis in Heroes 3. They're both mainly dependent on the 1st, 4th, 5th, and 6th level creatures. Sure, necromancy is less effective but they have Skeleton Archers. Vampires are actually about the same, they have less hit points and only have 50% life drain, but they cost less than in Heroes 3, they do more damage, and they have higher growth. The Heroes 5 Liches are much more powerful than the Heroes 3. They are probably the second best shooter in the game, a week's growth of Liches do 36 - 51 damage, a week's growth of Archliches do 48 - 60 damage, a week's growth of Shadow Witches do 34 - 48 damage, and a week's growth of Shadow matriarchs do 34 - 54 damage. Liches have 3 less attack than Shadow Witches and Archliches only have 1 less attack than Shadow Matriachs, plus they have the death cloud ability, which damages all non-undead creatures. The Lich's biggest weakness is its size, it's four squares big so creatures with 8 speed can cross the field and hit them. Wights and Wraiths are not as good as Black/Dread Knights but they do the highest damage of any level 6 units, although Paladins and Rakshasas can do more damage when you take their special abilities into account. The Zombie, Ghost, and Bone Dragons seem pretty useless, perhaps even more so than their Heroes 3 counterparts. Although ghosts do have high damage values but their low hit points and speed limits their usefulness. Sure they have the incorporeal ability, which could be improved with Soldier's Luck, but they still get slaughtered by spells.

The biggest problem with the Necropolis is the lack of speed. No Necropolis creature can cross the battlefield in one turn and the highest initiative they have is 11. The Necropolis is the slowest faction in the game. Academy is second with only the Djinn Sultan being able to cross the battlefield in one turn and the Master Gremlin have an initiative of 11 and the Djinn have an initiative of 12 but at least the Rakshasa Rukh can double its initiative and Wizards can create artifacts that increase their creature's initiative and speed.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted May 16, 2006 09:49 AM

Quote:
Herald of Death seems pretty useless since the Holy Temple does the same thing.

The Necropolis in Heroes 5 is actually very similar to the Necropolis in Heroes 3. They're both mainly dependent on the 1st, 4th, 5th, and 6th level creatures. Sure, necromancy is less effective but they have Skeleton Archers. Vampires are actually about the same, they have less hit points and only have 50% life drain, but they cost less than in Heroes 3, they do more damage, and they have higher growth. The Heroes 5 Liches are much more powerful than the Heroes 3. They are probably the second best shooter in the game, a week's growth of Liches do 36 - 51 damage, a week's growth of Archliches do 48 - 60 damage, a week's growth of Shadow Witches do 34 - 48 damage, and a week's growth of Shadow matriarchs do 34 - 54 damage. Liches have 3 less attack than Shadow Witches and Archliches only have 1 less attack than Shadow Matriachs, plus they have the death cloud ability, which damages all non-undead creatures. The Lich's biggest weakness is its size, it's four squares big so creatures with 8 speed can cross the field and hit them. Wights and Wraiths are not as good as Black/Dread Knights but they do the highest damage of any level 6 units, although Paladins and Rakshasas can do more damage when you take their special abilities into account. The Zombie, Ghost, and Bone Dragons seem pretty useless, perhaps even more so than their Heroes 3 counterparts. Although ghosts do have high damage values but their low hit points and speed limits their usefulness. Sure they have the incorporeal ability, which could be improved with Soldier's Luck, but they still get slaughtered by spells.

The biggest problem with the Necropolis is the lack of speed. No Necropolis creature can cross the battlefield in one turn and the highest initiative they have is 11. The Necropolis is the slowest faction in the game. Academy is second with only the Djinn Sultan being able to cross the battlefield in one turn and the Master Gremlin have an initiative of 11 and the Djinn have an initiative of 12 but at least the Rakshasa Rukh can double its initiative and Wizards can create artifacts that increase their creature's initiative and speed.



Good points there. However, the Holy Temple (is that really it's name? - it should more be an Unholy Temple!) - anyway, that building is somewhat less usefull because you can't pick up wandering troops and then send them back on their own, as you would in Heroes IV. You have to actually keep slots open for them, and then bring them back. Of course, you can still have helpers run back and forth between any town you might capture. And I think you're right that the speed will be a problem - especially against fractions like Academy and Sylvan with a lot of ranged power.

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