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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Heroes 5 Strategy: Playing Haven Faction
Thread: Heroes 5 Strategy: Playing Haven Faction This thread is 24 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 10 ... 20 21 22 23 24 · «PREV / NEXT»
The_Gootch
The_Gootch


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
posted August 21, 2007 07:13 PM

Quote:
as far as I'm aware enlightenment is always 2%  whether u have defense, leadership or any other skill set.  so I have no idea what you are talking about again.


Here's a very instructive piece taken from sdfx inInferno Insight that was started by DoomForge.

Quote:
Yes, and it's one of the reasons why Grok is so good. He starts with log(15% chance) and only 2 lvl ups are needed to make it expert. Then he can make gating expert ASAP and take attack if offered and make it expert ASAP too.
From this point Grok will be getting offered with TWO skills per level. Gating, attack and log are alraedy at max(15%+15%+10%=45%) so only the remaining skills are offered.
So, the chance for getting dark = 8%/(100%-45%) = 17.7(7) %
But there are 2 skills offered at the same time so
The real chance for getting dark = 1 - ((55-8)/55)^2 = ~27 %
Chance for getting enlightenment = 1 - ((55-2)/55)^2 = ~17.65 %


Though his math is off a bit, (15%+15%+10%=40, not 45) it is still indispensable.  Applying this principle to the Knight, once Counterstrike(10%), Leadership(15%), and Defense(15%, which is higher than Attack's 10%) are maxed, the real chance of getting Enlightenment soars.

Quote:
the best knight doesn't start with attack.


Careful, he might tell you the best Knight starts with Sorcery(Nur).  Maeve and Klaus both start with Attack.  Many people consider those two to be the best that Haven has to offer.  I don't get to play with Maeve though, so I couldn't tell you how effective her haste is.  I don't like Attack and Klaus can get screwed if his Paladins get jammed.  However, nothing can jam my beloved Griffins.

Quote:
and 1 luck/morale is not "as effective"  as 5 luck/morale.


Crunching the numbers, objectively this is true.  However, many people have reported bringing in max luck and morale into a battle and not getting a single proc, whearas the dirtbags that brought 2s into the battle had, like, a string of nasty bad awful lucky and high morale shots.  Having 5s in morale and luck doesn't make critical hits and high morales any better, just theoretically they're supposed to happen more often.

If you can get artifacts that duplicate the effect of a skill, why invest points into that skill?  If your luck and morale needs can be served artificially, we're talking a whopping potential of six skill points that can be diverted elsewhere, not including subskills within those respective trees.

For a final battle though, my buddies will usually send a trash hero after me to knock off any luck/morale boosters I may have picked up along the way.  I think that's a common sense thing and so I cannot rely on boosters for a final battle.


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havenlover
havenlover


Adventuring Hero
posted August 21, 2007 07:37 PM

I'm not sure quite what you're saying, you "max" three entire base skillsets so that only the "remaining skills are offered."  I confess I don't play heroes that get to level 25.  but it sounds like this could only be taken into consideration with a really high hero.  and all for what?  a less than 1 in 5 shot using inflated numbers?  if this is what you need to make knights good, then knights suck.

and enlightenment can be duplicated just like luck/morale can be duplicated  and yes if you get a bad RNG its "the same."  but statistically its not the same, its better to have higher luck/morale.  

all other haven heroes I see being proposed as best are usually by ppl who only consider the final battle in a pretty long game with whatever unit mix they find optimal.  vitorio solves all those problems, starts out great, which means more exp/gold faster.  and still has good AND versatile skillsets later.  but yah if your hero is level 18 and you're klaus and you're training paladins then thats pretty brutal.  course how you get to level 18 in a better position then a vittorio is another matter.


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sdfx
sdfx


Famous Hero
posted August 21, 2007 08:15 PM

Yeah, when having leadership(15%), attack(10%) and defense(15%) maxed(15+10+15=40%) the chance for enlightenment equals
1 - ((60-2)/60)^2 = 6.55(5)%
Pretty unrealistic because light/dark is needed fast, so it will be
2/52 = ~3.846% chance most of the time.
So, once leadership, attack, light and defense are taken then a chance for getting enlightenment after 20(or sooner) lvl ups equals
1-(1-2/52)^20 = ~54.36 %
This means that on average, every 2 games enlightenment will be eventually offered to a knight.

Knights are late game heroes. Vittorio is of course different but he is still inferior to magic heroes. If the game is not about reaching 20+ lvl then a magic hero will do better. And yes, Nur is a great example of a very effective, map owning(gold, artifact, resources..) magic hero. If arma is somehow available on the map then maybe a hit and run warlock(with morale arties) + split battle dive is worth a shot.

About morale luck I meant that
1 luck/morale has a 20% chance to be as effective as 5 luck/morale
2 luck/morale has a 40% chance to be as effective as 5 luck/morale
3 luck/morale has a 60% chance to be as effective as 5 luck/morale
4 luck/morale has a 80% chance to be as effective as 5 luck/morale
5 luck/morale has a 100% chance to be as effective as 5 luck/morale
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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted August 21, 2007 08:19 PM
Edited by feluniozbunio at 20:25, 21 Aug 2007.

I think that enlightenment isnt essencial skill. Its generally very good but:

-vs magic faction going luck+ magic resistance seams to be better
-vs might factions defense seems to be better
-leadership might be good competitor coz its as strong as luck in late game and it gives good bonus to retribution

My choice of skills for haven would be:

-offense or war machines - depens on map. vittorio for small dougal for large
-logistics always
-light magic always
-enlightenment/defense/luck depending on the opponent

I think that i woulnt go for the last tree since knights have a lot good  perks available.

I generally dont have very good results with haven but it was never a hero issue , im quite comfortable with this kind of hero each time i have him.


Edit: oh lol i forgot about leadership and retribution if im setting up for a long game. usually i take leadership too as a 5th coz its a long game and i can get extra few lvls more.

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havenlover
havenlover


Adventuring Hero
posted August 21, 2007 08:26 PM

Quote:
Yeah, when having leadership(15%), attack(10%) and defense(15%) maxed(15+10+15=40%) the chance for enlightenment equals
1 - ((60-2)/60)^2 = 6.55(5)%
Pretty unrealistic because light/dark is needed fast, so it will be
2/52 = ~3.846% chance most of the time.
So, once leadership, attack, light and defense are taken then a chance for getting enlightenment after 20(or sooner) lvl ups equals
1-(1-2/52)^20 = ~54.36 %
This means that on average, every 2 games enlightenment will be eventually offered to a knight.

Knights are late game heroes. Vittorio is of course different but he is still inferior to magic heroes. If the game is not about reaching 20+ lvl then a magic hero will do better. And yes, Nur is a great example of a very effective, map owning(gold, artifact, resources..) magic hero. If arma is somehow available on the map then maybe a hit and run warlock(with morale arties) + split battle dive is worth a shot.

About morale luck I meant that
1 luck/morale has a 20% chance to be as effective as 5 luck/morale
2 luck/morale has a 40% chance to be as effective as 5 luck/morale
3 luck/morale has a 60% chance to be as effective as 5 luck/morale
4 luck/morale has a 80% chance to be as effective as 5 luck/morale
5 luck/morale has a 100% chance to be as effective as 5 luck/morale


yah but its about winning.  and you still have to make it to late game to win.  theorizing on the super awesomeness of level 26 klaus's with huge trained paladins stacks is fun, but it wont necessarily win more.

so let me get this straight, you max out FOUR ENTIRE SKILLS then level up TWENTY TIMES to get a 50% chance of SOMETIME along the way getting enlightenment?

thats absolutely insane.  I mean seriously, thats like off the charts kooky.
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted August 21, 2007 08:26 PM

retribution is imho essential for haven player, it adds really a lot of damage..

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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted August 21, 2007 08:28 PM
Edited by feluniozbunio at 20:29, 21 Aug 2007.

Quote:
retribution is imho essential for haven player, it adds really a lot of damage..


In the long run yes. Its not so good in fast games. How much bonus can you get in week 2-3 final fight with so few troops? Not much. Its better to have war machines or some other skills at that point instead of retribution.

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sdfx
sdfx


Famous Hero
posted August 21, 2007 09:53 PM

Quote:
so let me get this straight, you max out FOUR ENTIRE SKILLS then level up TWENTY TIMES to get a 50% chance of SOMETIME along the way getting enlightenment?

It's better than dying.. I don't see how a knight can win vs sylvan, fortress, inferno(familiars) or academy's wizard(artificer, supress light) EVEN late game without enlightenment. Ok, a wizard and a demonlord can be beaten by a knight with sorcery(with +100 mana perk) but enlighten ranger or runemage will own a non-enlighten knight in no time.(assuming that a map is not gold ridiculous)
So what can be done about it? Using a ranger as a main.. Rangers have a 10% chance for enlightenment.
If the game is about early/mid encounter then a wizard is a good choice. What's funny is that if log is offered he can pull off teleport assault + marksman trick Teleporting paladins into a full joust range is not too bad either.

Let's look at haven vs haven: a knight vs a wizard. How a knight can actually do anything usuful vs a rushing wizard? Suppress light, dark magic happen, a knight with 40 mana for mass cleansing won't happen, MotW + dark owns a poor knight.
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Deathy
Deathy


Known Hero
Angels Galore
posted August 22, 2007 02:15 AM

well the other alternative for Sorcery or Enlightment is good knowledge artifacts. with right artifacts in hand, Knight heroes could end up getting pretty high mana. getting right artifacts is based on luck sure, but so is getting Enlightment at low enough level tho

and IMO Haven vs Fortress late game isn't so lost cause, if you have skilled yourself so that you'll one hit kill most Fortress stacks, it would be possible to pull off a win. assuming that gold is plenty enough for training that is

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havenlover
havenlover


Adventuring Hero
posted August 22, 2007 09:45 AM

Quote:
Quote:
retribution is imho essential for haven player, it adds really a lot of damage..


In the long run yes. Its not so good in fast games. How much bonus can you get in week 2-3 final fight with so few troops? Not much. Its better to have war machines or some other skills at that point instead of retribution.


yah any short game for a might faction and you want war machines.
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sdfx
sdfx


Famous Hero
posted August 22, 2007 10:46 AM

There is no such thing as a might faction BUT there are might and magic heroes. So simply, you don't want a might hero for quick games - you want a magic hero to prove once again that
small army, spellpower, knowledge > small army, attack, defense

Might heroes generally make a very bad magic heroes although rangers can  learn destructive and have 2% for insane(in quick games) imbue ballista. Demonlords can get summoning(fire warriors), dark and war machines.
Runemages can get destructive(ignite), war machines and summoning(runic armor+ingvar's shieldguards is pretty good, exorcism + destructive is good vs a phoenix)
Anyway, only knights make a very bad magic heroes and in quick games a haven player is forced to use a wizard or a ranger as a main.
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted August 22, 2007 11:09 AM

Quote:
Anyway, only knights make a very bad magic heroes and in quick games a haven player is forced to use a wizard or a ranger as a main.


vittorio better

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sdfx
sdfx


Famous Hero
posted August 22, 2007 11:49 AM

Only if he gets enlightenment and good dark spells. Let Vittorio fight and level up but use a wizard as well and make him a main just not to provoke bad luck. If at some point enlightenment is offered to Vittotio then he has a chance to be a better main than a wizard.
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted August 22, 2007 12:08 PM

you overestimate enlightment imo.

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sdfx
sdfx


Famous Hero
posted August 22, 2007 12:15 PM

you underestimate dark imo
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted August 22, 2007 12:21 PM

Yep good for knights but rare, end of story. Also I'm not so sure about a wizard being so good with haven early because you don't have the wood and ore to build up the mage guilds, dwellings and training facilities. Suppose you do, you will still not get might skills or powerful spells other than mass decay that means a warlock can kick your butt. At least a knight can get divine guidance, retribution, archery and tactics early. Might be a good counter for necros though.
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dschingi
dschingi


Famous Hero
the guy with the dragon golem
posted August 22, 2007 12:24 PM

Enlightenment is very good, but imo other skills are not much worse. Attack, Defense, Luck, Leadership... all good might skills, especially Defense against Sylvan or Inferno. I mean I take Enlightenment too when offered, but the 2% chance just doesn't make it worth waiting for it.

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Deathy
Deathy


Known Hero
Angels Galore
posted August 22, 2007 02:17 PM

well Rangers,Runemages and Warlocks have only 2% chance for Dark Magic so Enlightment isn't that necessary against everyone.

IMO you should have it against Inferno and Academy.

and i still think a good artifact that gives either knowledge or knowledge and spellpower could replace Enlightment aswell.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted August 22, 2007 03:23 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 15:24, 22 Aug 2007.

Quote:
you underestimate dark imo


knight can do dark magic as well as wizard, except for motw frenzy/blind, but relying on motw frenzy/blind is relying on one trick pony, and that never works. I'd happily trade motw frenzy/blind for better A/D, retribution, divine guidance and such, possible only for knights.

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sdfx
sdfx


Famous Hero
posted August 22, 2007 04:48 PM

Quote:
that means a warlock can kick your butt.

1 mass spell(or maybe more) + counterspelling should be enough. I must say that in this match up attack is very good skill for a warlock - he can counter mass slow.
Quote:
motw frenzy/blind is relying on one trick pony, and that never works.

I'd rather say that what never works is a knight casting 40 mana mass cleansing..
Quote:
I'd happily trade motw frenzy/blind for better A/D, retribution, divine guidance and such, possible only for knights.

Even if you had Dougal and his swarms of marksman you would still lose vs dark. No mass cleansing = no win.
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