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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Heroes 5 Strategy: Playing Inferno Faction
Thread: Heroes 5 Strategy: Playing Inferno Faction This thread is 30 pages long: 1 ... 8 9 10 11 12 ... 20 30 · «PREV / NEXT»
V3Z0W
V3Z0W


Hired Hero
Griffin Eternal.
posted November 24, 2007 01:08 PM

Quote:
You probably spend a minute to look at the ultimate requirements Seriously though there are better things to aim for. It would be harder in a multiplayer game not to mention that the map would have to be full of encounters so that you can reach the level. Also ultimates are pretty unreliable, how many times have you tried to get one? It's easy to get offered 2 abilities you do not want in the end and have all these junk skills for nothing.

(Sorry for the others that you had to hear all this again.)


I didn't quite understood what you said Elvin.You're saying that all those skills and abilities are too hard to be reached?
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Tastes like chicken
posted November 24, 2007 01:19 PM

Hard to get, easy to fail by picking a wrong skill and require quite the high level. Many other ability combos are better, until you manage to get it the enemy can be better prepared.
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V3Z0W
V3Z0W


Hired Hero
Griffin Eternal.
posted November 24, 2007 01:23 PM
Edited by V3Z0W at 13:28, 24 Nov 2007.

Quote:
Hard to get, easy to fail by picking a wrong skill and require quite the high level. Many other ability combos are better, until you manage to get it the enemy can be better prepared.


Why do you think I was thinking so much for a strategy?I need time but I will find one that will mach those skills and abilities.I am sure.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Tastes like chicken
posted November 24, 2007 01:40 PM

Hehe good luck There's much advice around but the best way to learn is play against good human players.
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V3Z0W
V3Z0W


Hired Hero
Griffin Eternal.
posted November 24, 2007 08:13 PM
Edited by V3Z0W at 19:41, 25 Nov 2007.

Thanks.I've been playing till now and I have 23 out of 32 skills and abilities I need.Hmmm...I think it's acutually made so that it's posible to reach any combination...

Damn!!!Elvin I didn't made it.Damn!!!So close I only meeded 6.Damn damn damn!!!The older ones are better...and much more easier to gain.I'll think of a combination...

Got it!Another combination:This one is easier to achive and as efficent as the last oneStill this one isn't made of primary abilities either so it's a bit hard to achive as well.Not as hard as the last one anywayyou have many levels at you're disposal)



Gating-Consume Corpse
      Hellfire
      Mark of the Damned
Attack-Battle Frenzy
      Tactics
      Excruciating Strike(Battle Frenzy;Mark of the Damned)
Defense-Protection
       Evasion
       Hellwrath(Evasion;Hellfire)
Dark Magic-Master of Curses
          Master of Mind
          Weakening Strike(Mark of the Damned)
Destructive Magic-Master of Fire
                 Master of Ice
                 Searing Fires(Master of Fire;Hellfire)
Luck-Magic Resistance
    Soldier's Luck
    Swarming Gate(Soldier's Luck)

First of all choose the skills that have abilities wich require other abilities from the same skill.If you go up a level don't choose a new skill only if you have no other choise.In this way you may already have the abilities required for learning other abilities of new skills and in this way the chances of you gaining the desired ability will grow.Of couse the racial abilities should be choosen first.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Tastes like chicken
posted November 25, 2007 09:08 PM

Not much point in planning that far ahead. Usually you should aim for 2 maybe 3 skills that you absolutely want and see how the game progresses.
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V3Z0W
V3Z0W


Hired Hero
Griffin Eternal.
posted November 27, 2007 05:39 PM

Quote:
Not much point in planning that far ahead. Usually you should aim for 2 maybe 3 skills that you absolutely want and see how the game progresses.


Damn if I won't achive this one either than I'm not to be called a HoMM V player.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Tastes like chicken
posted November 27, 2007 05:46 PM

I'm just saying that you can't always get what you want in time, especially when you need to kill a group of neutrals in a specific deadline. There is always some uncertainty, first that you may not get all the skills you want and secondly that you will but not be offered all the desired abilities. With some practice you can get it of course but it's better to keep an open mind when ingame.

Large maps where an opponent is not likely to rush you  are a little different of course and easier to plan In any case there is no need to doubt your skills, even if you are not a good player you can become one.
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V3Z0W
V3Z0W


Hired Hero
Griffin Eternal.
posted December 04, 2007 05:34 PM

Quote:
I'm just saying that you can't always get what you want in time, especially when you need to kill a group of neutrals in a specific deadline. There is always some uncertainty, first that you may not get all the skills you want and secondly that you will but not be offered all the desired abilities. With some practice you can get it of course but it's better to keep an open mind when ingame.

Large maps where an opponent is not likely to rush you  are a little different of course and easier to plan In any case there is no need to doubt your skills, even if you are not a good player you can become one.


Who said I'm not a good player??As I said I played all the series except for HoMM I.Back than I was just encouraging myself
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guarder
guarder


Supreme Hero
posted December 04, 2007 06:06 PM

I'm wondering. What is best to do? Get the gating skills included ultimate, or get the mark of damned and hellfire skills? What is the best
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Tastes like chicken
posted December 04, 2007 09:05 PM

Depends on what you plan to get. I find excruciating strike very useful early on so mark of the damned is a no brainer for me.

@V3Z0W
Riight
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pinkspear
pinkspear


Known Hero
Crazy like a fool
posted December 04, 2007 10:54 PM bonus applied.

Playing Inferno faction post Tote

Since the release of Tribes of the East, it seemed to me that inferno remained the weakest faction in the eyes of most people, not being able to put up a fight against other factions. In this guide I want to prove that it still has its benefits, and if you know most of the tricks, you can become succesful when playing with it.

With the introduction of Tote, Nival changed/added a lot of content and I'm focusing on the changes, while keeping in mind the old tricks & strats that remained from Homm5 and Hof.


Creatures

Level 1: Imps->Familiars + Vermins. While the imp is a fine level 1 creature with good stats and growth, upgrading them asap (possibly on day 1) is a must since they got +1 damage and +2 health which can't be overlooked, and goes very well with their high numbers. The upgrade choice must be Familiars, since they drain more mana than Vermins (1 mana per 4 Familiar), and they give it to your hero, while the Verms give it to casters only, which is useless since inferno has only one caster (and they poorly for being a lvl6 caster), and most of the time  you'll be choosing Pit Spawns instead of Lords, which mean Vermins are out of the question. (They also need a full turn to drain mana). Also Familiars are highly recommended for creeping.


Level 2: Horned Demons->Horned Overseers + Horned Grunts. Demons are lousy lvl2 creatures, and they can be used only as tanks, stealing retalations, protect more important troops, and to gate some other demon fodders. The upgrades aren't very interesting either, however some people would say the Grunts are good for creeping, which is actually not true. While the leap ability may seem fine, they can't do enough damage even when jumping to bigger distances, and they're also exposed to double retaliation, which will seriously decrease their numbers. My advice is to not care much about upgrading Demons, you'll be fine without them.


Level 3: Hell Hounds->Cerberi + Firebreathers. While Hell Hounds aren't bad lvl3 creatures, their lower defense(3), and hp(15), and lack of special abilities make them somewhat vulnerable, but they can stiil deal lots of damage, making them an ok lvl 3 troops. However, if you upgrade them, you'll get some nasty, and powerful creatures. Both of the upgrades have similar stats, though Firebreathers have -1 damage, they both get the no enemy retaliation ability, and the ability to attack multiple creatures. However the Firebreathers can attack more than 3 creatures, and in wider formations, which clearly gives them the advantage. These creatures are great for creeping with their high speed, init and good abilities.

Level 4: Succubi->Succubus Mistresses + Succubus Seducers. Succubi aren't so interesting level 4 creatures, their only special is that they retaliate against ranged attacks. However the upgrades are really powerful units. The mistresses have the chain shot ability, that allows them to attack 4 units, which is great if you have hellfire and/or luck, and also quite useful when creeping. The Seducers have an especially useful ability, seduction, which allows them to take control any units in the battlefield (provide it doesn't have mind immunity) for a few turns (max 4). The ability duration & usage depends on the power ratio between the seducers and their target, in the lategame this becomes a great ability, as it is in creeping. Still, I recommend a stack of both Mistresses and Seducers in creeping, because the creeps will probably split into 2-3 stacks and you don't need big stacks of Seducers to take coöntrol of them, while you're shooting them with chain shots improved by hellfire.


Level 5: Hell chargers->Nightmares + Hell stallions. These mighty horse-like creatures have good speed(7-8) and excellent initiative (15-16), and good damage, which makes them effective creepers, along with their fear ability. Still, you have to manage them carefully, because of their low-ish hp. The upgrades have two different kinds of "auras" Nightmares decrease adjacent enemies' morale by 3, while stallions deal them additional damage on the enemies' turn (damage is 10*number of stallions in stack). I think I vote for stallions, since the plus damage helps more than some morale decreasing, and in tote you can have more than 5 points of morale and luck, which makes the frightful aura less effective.


Level 6it Fiends->Pit Lords + Pit Spawns. Pit Fiends are among the worst lvl 6 creatures with their awful speed (4) and init (8). Due to they're low growth ('cause they're lvl 6s) their casting power is also horrible. Nothing much changes when it comes to lords, the spawns, on the other hand, provide us some nice offensive power with their +2 speed and +1 init along with their whopping 140 hp and  they're also 50% magic proof. In addition, they replace the ineffective casting ability with a slaughtering blade, which deals additional damage to bigger stacks of creatures, making them the obvious upgrade choice.


Level 7: Devils->Arch Devils + Arch Demons. The Devil is an ok lvl7 flier to start with. From the upgrades I think the good ol' arch devil is better, with the pit lord summoning ability, because the demons are slower (-1 speed and init) which makes their interesting pull ability useless, since they need to take 2 actions to use it (first, they have to get close to enemies, then spend a turn to pull).



Heroes & skills

As you already know, Skillwheels were greatly changed in Tote. Also, Nival made ultimates more easy to get (possible in lvl 23-25), however   going for the ultimate should NOT be your prority. Why? While Urgash's Call is an impressive ultimate (and it requires suitable skills for a Demon Lord), there are so many available perks in each ability (for instance 10 perks only in logistics) that you'll probably be flooded with useless skills, and only 1 bad level-up can ruin your plan. Notice that Demon lords have the most selectable skills (143) in the game.



One of Inferno's weaknesses was the creeping, but with Tote it has become a lot better. Without a low-tier shooter/caster, creeping might seem problematic, however with careful managing of skills it won't be a problem.Here are my skill choices:

From gating you MUST choose Hellfire and Mark of the Damned. Hellfire is pretty straightforward, bonus damage is always welcome, and you can kill shooters/casters faster with it. The mark, on the other hand, is far better than you might first think. With gated units you can abuse it to the fullest, the mark works fine with all kinds of creatures, and later on it becomes your solution to high level tiers, and it is a necessity when breaking strong guards on maps. I don't care much about  Consume Corpse, since demon lords have high knowledge, and familiars give them additional mana. It's not a bad choice, but the other two are far more effective and desirable.

To help creeping you should always choose war machines. With triple ballista is easy to get now, it will help you a lot in creeping, and becomes a powerhouse with flaming arrows (though arrows are not so easy to get, they'll help a lot in the midgame as well). Since ballista's damage depends on hero's attack and knowledge, the demon lords are in the best position.(both of them are primary skills). I think this needs no further explanation, war machines are good with each faction.

Another skill that inferno players have to take is attack. From the 7 creatures 6 are melee fighters, making attack a worthy skill. Also it improves your mark of the damned with excruciating strikes, which is useful in the beggining, and becomes a real killer when you reach higher levels, it can easily take out 3-4 lvl7 creatures per strike. Battle frenzy is another useful perk (due to good damage and high growth numbers), with tactics you can reach your enemy lines with stallions, arch devils, and firebreathers in the first strike, and flaming arrows are always welcome. I think cold steel and archery aren't so powerful like the others, you can skip them.

Unlike stronghold, inferno cannot rely only on its creatures might, they need some support from magic, and that's where Dark Magic kicks in. Though demon lords have low spellpower, it's easy to get it boosted by some adventure locations and artifacts, I think a sp of 6-8 can be enough most of the time. You should focus on getting mass slow, and confusion, the former goes well wit the creature's high init, while the latter takes care of problematic shooters. The level 4 and 5  spells are good in every situation, though curse of the netherworld is not so useful (due to lower sp.), but vampirism is nice, since it's infernos only spell that can counter opposing dark magic.

Logistics is also a skill, from which the heroes can benefit. You can do well with pathfinding and swift gating, and you should try getting swift mind when you also have dark magic, since casting mass slow before the enemy hero could do anything is priceless, and not easy for your opponent to recover from. Teleport Assault is also quite brutal, but sadly almost impossible to get, because of the aforementioned "perk-flood" problem.

Apart from gating these are the four skills that are necessities for your hero and they have a good chance to show up (8% for dark, 10% for war machines, and 15% for attack and logistics). Other skills that you might consider are luck, that goes well with mistresses and stallions (soldier's luck), Leadership (divine guidance and aura of swiftness are very good in combat, and of course, high morale is always good), defense can increase your survivability (vitality and power of endurance greatly improves your creatures toughness), also if you have cleansing in your mage guild and you're lucky enough to get offered light magic you should take it, cause dark magic is good vs your units, and cleansing will probably solve that problem, not to mention light has some good stat-boosting spells with which you can't go wrong. Shrug darkness and seal of darkness will punish enemy dark users even more, you might consider taking those perks.

Finally there's hero selection. After testing a lot with inferno, two heroes remained: Grok and the mighty Deleb. Deleb's fireball ballista was seriously imbalanced before tote, but it got nerfed, and I think it became a pretty balanced special. Then there's Grok whose rusher ability is quite powerful, and he has teleportation for only 4 mana, this helps a lot when creeping shooters. With both heroes, you should take advanced gating with hellfire and mark on the first level-ups, then you should take basic attack and wait until exruciating strtike pops up (until then you I suppose taking adv. war machines/logistics or expert gating). You have to avoid selecting new skills until you have some strong attack perks. I tried all the other heroes as well, but didn't feel they were as strong as these two.



Building strategies

Inferno has some problems with resources, because some key structures require crazy amounts of wood/sulfur.Some advices:
Don't build demon dwelling on week 1. Demons are pure fodders, you can do well with the ones you have from starting hero.

Build succubus dwelling instead of hell charger building on week 1 then upgrade it week 2. Upgraded succubi are better than chargers, and probably you won't have 20 spare sulfur to build & upgrade charger dwelling. Upg. succubi costs only 8 sulfur.

aim for only citadel on week 2. You probably won't have enough days and resources to build capitol, sacrificial altar (costly and 100% useless building, but you need it for castle) and castle on week 2.
Try to get enough gold for resource silo on week 2.


Last but not least some replays:

Breaking the arch devils on battle for honor week5 with 0 creatures lost.

Creeping pack of cyclopes week3.

Hope you find this guide useful.





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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Tastes like chicken
posted December 04, 2007 11:26 PM
Edited by Elvin at 00:04, 05 Dec 2007.

Good work there mate I feel the same for most of your findings, just a few things.

I don't skip demons unless wood is not enough to upg hellhounds and continue the building tree.
I don't upg imps because I don't use them much in creeping, firehounds, ballista and demon fodder is usually enough.
I also consider Nebiros good, he's the only guarantee that your cerberi will take out archers without risk. Nymus as well though others are better suited for fast creeping.
Battle for Honor you can take down the devils on week 4.
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pinkspear
pinkspear


Known Hero
Crazy like a fool
posted December 04, 2007 11:43 PM

Well thanks.

As for firehounds, personally I'm more comfortable with 100 familiars on week 2 with 20-24 firehounds, which I found a bit slow.

About breaking:I'm not an expert of breaking such strong stacks. Also, I can't see the point, why a faction like inferno (what definetely doesn't need to rush, or at least not on week 3 imho) should crush the guard so early. Also on that replay I had tome of summoning, and I thought I'll be fine with barricading gated troops and using arcane cristal and blade barrier. I'm sure that if I went for higher dark spells ('cause I had expert dm.) I would have done better.

Gonna watch your replay now.

Btw there are some grammatic errors in the post, I'll correct them tomorrow.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Tastes like chicken
posted December 05, 2007 12:02 AM
Edited by Elvin at 00:06, 05 Dec 2007.

Edit: Oops it was week 4 sorry. In any case it's better to break as soon as you can because there's much to be gained from taking the middle.
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The_Gootch
The_Gootch


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
posted December 05, 2007 02:39 AM
Edited by The_Gootch at 02:40, 05 Dec 2007.

I think overall your guide is pretty good Pinkspear.  

Yes you're right about familiars drawing more mana.  However, Vermin can continually use their siphon mana ability.  I don't know if it's better.  I just know the option's there.  Now I'm not sure why the Pit Lord got nerfed in Tribes.  Can anyone honestly say that Inferno's creature lineup needed to be nerfed?  But there it is, their mana dropped from 29 to 20.   Yes, vermin are tailor made for the Pit Lord, but think about potential synergies.  If you get stuck with 2 baddie towns, Vermin can do wonders.  Think about what kind of mana they can add to Sky Daughters, Master Liches, and Shadow Matriarchs.    

As far as the demon upgrades are concerned, horned grunts can be unbelievably effective.  Luck + high damage range=super luck shots.  Not that you can plan for it, but if you get Light Magic + Divine Strength you're going to see some damage outputs from these guys no other tier 2 is capable of doing.  They've got a great ability and stupid high numbers to back it up.

I think of Cerebri/Firebreathers as the backbone of the Inferno army.  Firebreathers are definitely the way to go.

Good idea mixing it up with Succubi.  Oftentimes I'll want to puppet just to delay the bad guys a turn or so.  

I'm aware of the cap being raised on max morale/luck.  I don't agree with it.  Yes it might lead to reduced effectiveness for the fear aura.  But if we know someone is relying on that level 5 morale i.e. Empathy or whatever, shouldn't we at least do something to try to reduce it?  Most effective use of Nightmares I've seen in final battles anyway comes to them selling their lives dearly by attacking immediately.  Their hulking corpse then makes great fodder for the ArchDevils raising ability.  Against Necro, it's a given to use Hell Stallions.  But against some others, I just don't know yet.

I like the Pit Spawn over the Pit Lord in nearly every situation, lone exception might be when taking a Utopia I might want several stacks of Lords for exceptional Vorpalness.  But that's about it.

I don't think the teleport other ability the ArchDemons have justifies their loss to initiative and speed.  If anything, I think it's a weaker ability than the raising/summoning of the Arch Devil.  6 speed?!  Give me a break.  As of now it makes more sense to use the dumb thing defensively, you know, to whisk your nightmares or Cerebri from your opponents side after they've attacked.

Against Dark users like Necro and Haven, give me Marbas any day of the week over Deleb.   Hell, let me use him against everyone except for Dungeon.  

As for building strategies, do you play random maps?  I play Large random with underground on hard.  We get, uh, a tavern and a village hall.  Assuming I've had a good run, I'm confronted with the dilemma of building either a Capitol, a Castle, or my T7 dwelling day 7 of week 2.  Do you have a rule of thumb?  For me, if I can still build my Capitol day 1 of Week 3, I'll go for Castle.  

People say this game isn't about numbers.  But I look at the numbers this town generates for its T 1-4 and I have to think there's something to be said for numbers.  
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Adon
Adon


Known Hero
posted December 05, 2007 06:28 AM

As always Gootch, your insight is great!

I'm interested in Familiar versus Vermin. I guess for Necro and Warlock you would probably be dumb not to get a large stack of familiars to drain as much as you could right off the bat to capitalize on their low knowledge and overreliance on big mana spells.

For other factions, Vermin are probably gonna be more useful in that they will be able to do something useful each turn and keep draining more mana (coupled with a gated stack in large numbers doing the same).  The trouble will be keeping them alive to keep sucking dry. But if they live to do it 2 or 3 times, they could probably take out much more mana than a stack of familiars versus a wizard or fortress.

They might also be ignored and therefore live a while ( I know I would target the firebreathers and succubi before any vermin). And if they are targeted, that buys your other units more life to keep killing.

A familiar can be safely ignored after it attacks, while a Vermin has to be killed before it stops bleeding mana from the opponent. I'm torn.  The vermin have better speed which is pretty useful for a tier 1 unit.
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pinkspear
pinkspear


Known Hero
Crazy like a fool
posted December 05, 2007 10:16 PM
Edited by pinkspear at 22:22, 05 Dec 2007.

Quote:



As far as the demon upgrades are concerned, horned grunts can be unbelievably effective.  Luck + high damage range=super luck shots.  Not that you can plan for it, but if you get Light Magic + Divine Strength you're going to see some damage outputs from these guys no other tier 2 is capable of doing.  They've got a great ability and stupid high numbers to back it up.


Yes, in large(r) maps they definitely useful (and I see you prefer bigger maps), but I tested on small/medium maps where you can do better without planning on demons. It depends only on map choice, though.

Quote:

I'm aware of the cap being raised on max morale/luck.  I don't agree with it.  Yes it might lead to reduced effectiveness for the fear aura.  But if we know someone is relying on that level 5 morale i.e. Empathy or whatever, shouldn't we at least do something to try to reduce it?  Most effective use of Nightmares I've seen in final battles anyway comes to them selling their lives dearly by attacking immediately.  Their hulking corpse then makes great fodder for the ArchDevils raising ability.  Against Necro, it's a given to use Hell Stallions.  But against some others, I just don't know yet.


I think it depends only on your playstile, personally I prefer stallions, that's all


Quote:

As for building strategies, do you play random maps?  I play Large random with underground on hard.  We get, uh, a tavern and a village hall.  Assuming I've had a good run, I'm confronted with the dilemma of building either a Capitol, a Castle, or my T7 dwelling day 7 of week 2.  Do you have a rule of thumb?  For me, if I can still build my Capitol day 1 of Week 3, I'll go for Castle.  



That is another thing which is simply map dependant.


@ The_Gootch: In some of your posts I read interesting Hero/skill choices and strategies (like Kythra wit empathy, Jezebeth wizh distract, etc.). Don't you want to post a bigger thread/post somewhere analysing these unusual strats? 'Cause I would be very interested!

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The_Gootch
The_Gootch


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
posted December 06, 2007 12:12 AM
Edited by The_Gootch at 00:15, 06 Dec 2007.

My current game using Kythra is going a little strange.  You see, I'm 17th level in that game and I've yet to be offered Destruction even once.  I've got Summoning and if worse comes to worse, it's gonna be Arcane Armor for everyone!  I've got one last slot left over waiting for Destruction to come up.  

Here's the gist of the creeping strategy.  It's a combination of Stalkers and Furies.  Furies coming in stacks of one.  Their only real purpose is to wait as long as possible.  Waiting takes half a move but morale can still trigger, which triggers Empathy, which moves Kythra up. Furies have a 16 initiative.  That's a lot of potential for multiple morales.  Same with Stalkers.  12 initiative.  Go invisible and just keep waiting.  Once I got Expert Sorc with her it's been crazy fun.  

As for Jezebel with Destruction, Distract, and Warlock's Luck I've yet to put it to the test.  Sdfx mentioned how good she can be with Sorc and Teleport Assaulting Succubi.  I'm thinking Master of Fire to reduce enemy defense, with say a fireball or firewall.  Sorc triggers , which I'm pretty sure means she'll be able to cast TA before Master of Fire effect wears off. Teleport Assault big stack of Succubi to close range and just getting massive damaging shots.  In Pvp Distract can bury an enemy hero.

I love the theory but she's Jezebeth, which means she's gonna have typical nonGrok, nonNebiros, nonDeleb creeping issues.

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Veteranewbie
Veteranewbie


Adventuring Hero
posted December 06, 2007 01:43 PM

So cereberus + upgraded succubus + horses/upg horses are the backbone to go for Inferno?

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