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| Thread: Heroes 5 Strategy: Playing Inferno Faction |  This thread is pages long: 1 10 ... 17 18 19 20 21 ... 30 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
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posted May 18, 2008 10:50 AM |
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If we take it to the extreme.
Inferno already has gating.
With urgash call and swarm gating, it will be imba for even haven.
Don'f forget that archdevil has summon pit lord.
Mathematically, 1 archdevil can summon 2 pit lords.
Your original pit lord/spawn, and the summoned ones can gate.
If both trigger swarm gating, inferno lv 6 unit is quadrupled instantly if you have urgash call. With pendant mastery, it is hexed.
More castle = more instantly greater number.
Don't forget, urgash call's gated unit is instantly spawned, it can be used to block any fast dangerous attacker (i.e: paladins, emerald dragons, etc), thus waste their turn and in other words, disabling them. If they do not charge asap, the battlefield will be too crowded for them. Don't forget too, that we can also nullify sylvan's ultimate luck with this way.
That's why they add a very crappy support building, sacrifial pit, to balance the game.
Try this, create a map just for fun, give inferno 8 starting towns (must be inferno towns), and enough cash to purchase all its units from its 8 towns.
Give another faction the same property as inferno.
Create an inferno hero that has all path of urgash call and the urgash call. Give him/her swarm gating and pendant of mastery.
Wait till one year, or you can calculate this 8 town number untill one year then give it to inferno and that another faction.
Now, battle that another faction as this inferno, and inferno capabilities. If i'm not mistaken, you can have about 1500 archdevils, and 3k pit lords/spawns. That archdevils can become 3k instantly and that pit lords/spawns number can become 18k instantly via swarm gating, urgash call, real and gated archdevil's summon pit lord, gating of the summoned pit lord from real archdevil and gated archdevil.
Lv 7 unit is instantly doubled and Lv 6 unit is instantly hexed.
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted May 18, 2008 11:26 AM |
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Yeah, sure. I'd love to do that, but...
Now try tiny map with one castle per faction and no bonus resources. Get ready for the rush in 2nd or 3rd week, then we'll see how much your gating is powerful 
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Nerull
Hired Hero
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posted May 18, 2008 04:17 PM |
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Warmonger - I asked for late game Inferno tactics and that is what he talked about. Read the question before denouncing the answer.
As for Chaosdragon:
a) Summoned Pits can't gate (not sure here).
b) To summon pit lords you have to have a sufficiently powerful DEAD stack first to summon at. So the number of pit lords is not gonna be as high.
c) I'm not talking about a game that takes forever on your conditions (the 8-town 1-year game is a thoretical joke). I am asking about a normal game, but on a big map. Say, the damned War of the Worlds map with 8 players at the start and 3 left, in early 3rd Month. Main Heroes are typically level 20-22, everyone has 2/3 towns fully built up, 10k daily income. That's the situation.
d) Nobody aims for Urgash's Call. The perk is pure ownage, but it makes you sacrifice so many important perks on the way that it's a suicide. And even Grok, who has the easiest way to UC, needs level 23 to get it (excluding Witch's huts etc) and only if he gets all the skills and perks exactly as he needs them. Moreover, at level 22 (right before UC) he is going to be a big fast >>shlt!!!<< without tactics, Leaderhip, mass slow, power of speed or luck. Tele assault aint gonna help him much.
e) In your imaginary one-year lolish game, I give you this challenge: the second player gets all Havens. He will field more Champions (thanks to training) than you could field Demons and Pit Lords altogether.
My question wasn't purely theoretical. I mean really: late game (3rd month), two more decisive battles ahead but a lot of cash that can change the course of the game.
How can Inferno use it well?
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted May 18, 2008 04:26 PM |
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Oops, you're right. Still, I believe your question demands answer?
I see ChaosDragon posting the same tale yet another time, which becomes quite absurd. The strategy is not based on 'what if' clauses, unfortunatelly.
I'm also certain that lategame Inferno is based on tactics (especially Nymus), but let's get down to the ground.
Since 10K doesn't allow you to buy all your troops from the three towns at all, I also find this question a little wrong.
How does Inferno benefit in the lategame is:
1.Hundreds of Familiars who drain all opponent's mana.
2.Pit Spawns, tanks itself, which always kill some percentage of enemy stack apart from the regular damage, i.e. they become more powerful with time.
There is no sick trick for it I think, but Inferno can still work and DOES work after some months.
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ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
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posted May 18, 2008 06:45 PM |
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@above
Do you read carefuly? I said "if we take it to the extreme" 
Quote:
As for Chaosdragon:
a) Summoned Pits can't gate (not sure here).
b) To summon pit lords you have to have a sufficiently powerful DEAD stack first to summon at. So the number of pit lords is not gonna be as high.
c) I'm not talking about a game that takes forever on your conditions (the 8-town 1-year game is a thoretical joke). I am asking about a normal game, but on a big map. Say, the damned War of the Worlds map with 8 players at the start and 3 left, in early 3rd Month. Main Heroes are typically level 20-22, everyone has 2/3 towns fully built up, 10k daily income. That's the situation.
d) Nobody aims for Urgash's Call. The perk is pure ownage, but it makes you sacrifice so many important perks on the way that it's a suicide. And even Grok, who has the easiest way to UC, needs level 23 to get it (excluding Witch's huts etc) and only if he gets all the skills and perks exactly as he needs them. Moreover, at level 22 (right before UC) he is going to be a big fast >>shlt!!!<< without tactics, Leaderhip, mass slow, power of speed or luck. Tele assault aint gonna help him much.
e) In your imaginary one-year lolish game, I give you this challenge: the second player gets all Havens. He will field more Champions (thanks to training) than you could field Demons and Pit Lords altogether.
a) It can gate. Even the summoned pit from the gated archdevil.
b) Nightmare can provide enough pit lords (exactly twice as the archdevils)
C) Did you read that I said "if we take it to the extreme"
d) Did you read that I said "if we take it to the extreme"
e) Yup, haven is the only one that have the chance to match this imaginery scenario. Nope, it won't have more paladins than you can summon your pit lords (especially the hexed ones). Remember, there is a limit to our maximum gold. And if i'm not mistaken, there is also a limit for maximum creature numbers, i'm not sure, maybe the limit is 9999. In this battle, haven lost.
Now, for the real one (not dream/imaginery). Forget about sacrifial pit, late game inferno is already quite strong without that crappy building. Gating and your build, artifacts and your spells is more than enough to determine your late game power.
As how to break strong caster early, sacrifice your horned demons, even if they must extinct. Sometimes, we must sacrifice something for the greater good, remember chess games? There are 8 pawns, horned demons is the same as those pawns.
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Nerull
Hired Hero
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posted May 23, 2008 12:13 AM |
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I've been re-looking the inferno's unit roster to see where I can find a meatshield, something to sacrifice if need be. Everyone would say Horned dudes are the meat, and I think I'll have to agree, although I simply love those Grunts - they really are one of the most mobile and (in big numbers) effective rusher units, leaping over the whole map and dealing 200% damage like crazy.
Anyway, that's not the point.
During my recent testing of Inferno, I came to using Hell Stallions (2nd upgrade of the horsies) a lot. What I realised a few days ago is that I've never (NEVER!) seen them proc their Fear Attack.
Is this a bug or my ultimately bad luck?
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Anakrom
Known Hero
(Scroll) Out of the blue
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posted May 23, 2008 08:08 AM |
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Quote:
Is this a bug or my ultimately bad luck?
Your ultimately bad luck.
Try to use Stallions on some weaker stack, Fear Attack triggers quite often.
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Result matters
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ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
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posted May 23, 2008 05:10 PM |
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Don't forget, if you plan to use nighmare for its fear attack, you must take soldier luck, without it, skip nightmare building, and go for pit fiend. It's not that nightmare is weak, it's one of your main offencer in later battle againts enemy's heroes, that's why we must safe it as you safe your imps and hounds. And in early weeks, especially in heroic, nightmare is too useless for creeping, imps, demons, hounds, succubus is enough and it's better than bringing nightmare just to die in a wrong place and time.
Use demons as meat shield for early weeks, but do not sacrifice them like a madman. Safe your demons to clear druids, master hunters, archmage; or to protect your imps and hounds againts cerberus, firehounds, furies, wind dancer, or any strong tier 2-4 fast creature that will reach your imps or hounds before their gated cousins come, etc; in other words, safe your demons untill the time is right to sacrifice them (even if they must extinct).
i.e: In week 1 heroic, againts throng/swarm zombies or lots/horde of golems or any creatures with 8 initiative or below, for the first time, you will think that this is an impossible fight without demons, some strategy about placing gated stack to make a narrow way can be used to win this fight far more easier, but you will make your demons extinct in a wrong place and time, you can do it with no loses with only vermins, but it is a very long battle. Just run away with your hero attacking it until those zombies are weak enough for your vermins. Safe your demons for another day.
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Nerull
Hired Hero
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posted May 24, 2008 03:07 PM |
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Quote:
i.e: In week 1 heroic, againts throng/swarm zombies or lots/horde of golems or any creatures with 8 initiative or below, for the first time, you will think that this is an impossible fight without demons,...no loses with only vermins, but it is a very long battle. Just run away with your hero attacking it until those zombies are weak enough for your vermins. Safe your demons for another day.
I did that a number of times. Actually, the 6 movement speed of Vermins is the main advantage they have above their fiery 'cousins' ;].
Anyway, I sort of dislike sacrificing Horneds whatsoever. In the 'vanilla' Homm5 the Overseers were one of the most crappy units in the game - slow in all aspects, dealing very little and their low defense meant they would die quickly against anything with noticeable Attack value.
But now, the Grunts... hands down the best Inferno creature upgrade of TotE (in my opinion). Their 1 extra point in initiative is very noticeable and their leap ability is pure ownage. Coupled with their 1-4 damage range, high demon lord's attack and big numbers it means they can leap over 3/4 of the map and deal tons of damage to low-defense units, very likely eliminating them altogether. And a Demon Lord's favourite spell (Confusion) eliminates the only weakness of this ability (the double damage from retaliation).
In mid-game siege battles they turned out to be one of the most busy units in my army, hopping over the walls easily.
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espen15
Famous Hero
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posted June 18, 2008 11:54 AM |
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arch devils would be assume like in h3 if they would have ability no enemy realiaton
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ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
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posted June 21, 2008 01:04 AM |
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Archdevil will be too imba if he also has no retaliation.
H3 archdevil has mediocre stat, H5 archdevil has above average stat. His overall stat still mediocre, but he has the second fastest initiative for tier 7, third highest maximum dmg, decent attack, decent speed (it's 7, but with tactic he can reach his opponent in first turn), he can gate and finally he has pit lord summoning.
If you add demon lord attack, archdevil has the highest attack, higher than seraph, usually inferno count on first strike, like sylvan, insane dmg and high initiative is the best possible combination.
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theluCas
Adventuring Hero
thiNk
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posted July 30, 2008 11:44 PM |
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Hi ppl, I dont really want to go throught 19 pages of this forum. Could pls somebody just summarize, how to play in TOE with grok and nebiros?
It is not easy to start with them, so I would like to know some creeping advices, skills that you develop as first.
This forum is really as user unfriendly and it is just good for a reading, but not for a real learning, how to play for me. I have read here one really useful post, it was from ervin, but 90% of post are just not worth of reading.
when i play with nebiros, i develop first attack skills -> battle frezny, mass haste, then demons lord skills, then logistic, then dark magic.
I play defensively and build up capitol and buy just imps and demons, upgrade them and try to creep with them as much as possible. I go for other units, when i build capitol.
It is weak build vs rushes.
I dont like to play with deleb.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 31, 2008 01:11 AM |
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I still doubt my inferno skills but for what it is worth..
Assuming you take no warmachines then you can only rely on gating, attack and dark. Mark and hellfire are a good addition for early creeping since you can gate many stack reinforcements.
I have heard someone started with Grawl and then picked another demonlord from tavern. That gives you enough hellhounds to upgrade and defeat most early neutrals with ease. Before upgrading, against slower speed 4 enemies you can simply run around while hitting them with hero. The more you have the less stacks the enemy will be split into.
However before even getting hellhounds you can only depend on imps and demons. I prefer to upgrade only the former and into vermin specifically. Why vermin? Extra speed and easier to outrun slow units just as the hellhounds can. Risky with 6 speed but it can work. If I ever upgraded demons it would be into grunts but it requires too much wood and while good you can't really depend on them with that pathetic defense and double damage penalty after leap.
So, I use the specific setup: One big stack of vermin in corner, one bid demon one next to them and 4 single demons surrounding them. Maybe 2-3 in each stack if I REALLY want to buy time(and the enemy is slow to reach me) with gates as single ones rarely gate successfully. In the meantime the demon/vermin gates with the hero could weaken the advancing forces enough for the two big units to deal with the remains. Or run around if they have to - though demons will suffer casualties if it comes to that.
Where ranged units are concerned I'd bet on cerberi and tactics and according to my forces guess on how many stacks I'll face. Usually 1-3 which means 1 big stack and 2 single cerberi just in case. You know where they will appear so you place accordingly. And hope for no obstacles.. Well unless you have 3 devils by week 3, they should be safer to creep ranged units with. Actually I tend to upgrade to firehounds but whatever suits you.
Grok has the easiest time, if a stack is about to be hit he can just teleport it elsewhere.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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ChaosReigns
Hired Hero
Rather inept necromancer
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posted July 31, 2008 05:12 AM |
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Hey, does anyone know of an Inferno strategy guide that includes some basic strategies and an analysis of all of the creatures (including the new ones from Tribes of the East)?
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ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
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posted July 31, 2008 03:00 PM |
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Remember, ToTE give inferno new feature, creeps ignore gated stack.
Againts almost all walker (of all tier), except furies, blade dancer, and another very fast walker and sometimes minotaur taskmaster can give you trouble if you fight them with lv 1 or 2 demon lord, other than that, just using hell hound can bring cheap victory, even if you fought lots magma dragons (yeah they are very strong, yet they are very slow, that's why you can bully them).
Indeed, it does not offer much challenge now compared to the previous series.
Actually, upg ing demons to leaper for creeping works well if you love splitting to several stack, but their numbers will gradually decrease. But, imo creeping with demons is grok speciality.
Well, the cheapest way is to abuse the new feature, it work well for all inferno heroes.
Quote:
Hey, does anyone know of an Inferno strategy guide that includes some basic strategies and an analysis of all of the creatures (including the new ones from Tribes of the East)?
I think there are numerous thread like that.
Well, here are some simple opinion from me for the creatures.
Tier 1
Vermins are useful for creeping and castle defending. While Familiars are more to open field battle.
Tier 2
Horned leaper all the way. I only use overseer for early creeping in heroic.
Tier 3
Againts slow faction, fire hounds. Againts fast faction, cerberus.
Tier 4
If you feel you need additional puppet, go for seducers. Otherwise, take mistress.
Tier 5
This is a hard choice. Well, againts fire immune enemies and very fast enemies, take nightmare. Otherwise take hell stalion. You may want to consider your artifact setups, if you have a total of -3 or -4 or -5 morale arties, nightmare can do a miracle, the miracle shine brighter if you have sorrow spell. Well i have only experienced this miracle once, when i fought orcs, it was the bad morale effect that allow me to win easily againts the orcs, i just lol all the way seeing its cyclops rarely acts. Forgot to say this, you may want to consider morale immune creatures too.
Tier 6
Spawn all the way. However, pit lord is better in defending your castle, backed up with vermins and teleport assault, it (i mean pit lord) can do a miracle too.
Tier 7
Archdevil all the way. Sometimes archdemon is also useful in defending your castle and attacking your enemy castle.
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Sargeras
Known Hero
the Fallen
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posted July 31, 2008 03:31 PM |
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Edited by Sargeras at 15:33, 31 Jul 2008.
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Quote:
Tier 3
Againts slow faction, fire hounds. Againts fast faction, cerberus.
...what exactly do u mean with slow/fast faction ???, cause i'll always take firehounds instead of cerberuses, IMHO i think fire breath is more usefull then +1 damage...
...and if u care to explain why "Spawns all the way" a little bit detailed...
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Now they shall be consumed by the very flame they sought to control...
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 31, 2008 03:33 PM |
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Yeah back then I used to gate near the opponent and by the time they killed them and came to my real units the ballista had done its work But now it's real abuse, just close the way in one place and the creeps will take the long way to you. Meanwhile you can close them when they come and they have to return to the previous location 
Expect this to be the first to be fixed when 3.1 is released, ridiculous.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 31, 2008 06:50 PM |
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3.1? I thought Nival has already forgotten this game.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 31, 2008 07:07 PM |
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Or I'm still too hopeful
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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kermit
Known Hero
Soul hunter
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posted July 31, 2008 07:27 PM |
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Quote:
Yeah back then I used to gate near the opponent and by the time they killed them and came to my real units the ballista had done its work But now it's real abuse, just close the way in one place and the creeps will take the long way to you. Meanwhile you can close them when they come and they have to return to the previous location
Expect this to be the first to be fixed when 3.1 is released, ridiculous.
Indeed, but I'm not so sure it works with large units, or everytime at least. Maybe it was an unlucky situation but I got hydras atacking my gates instead of simply moving past, there was an opening first time and after a couple gated imps dies there was one for sure the second, but they kept killing them.
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