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| Thread: Heroes 5 Strategy: Playing Academy Faction |  This thread is pages long: 1 ... 9 10 11 12 13 ... 20 30 36 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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dschingi
Famous Hero
the guy with the dragon golem
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posted October 21, 2007 04:18 PM |
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Former friends is a terrible map anyway. One game I had Sylvan there and the passage to the middle area was guarded by a horde of master hunters. My opponent was necro and could break to the middle in week one (don't know his guards), and if you have a few days to get the goodies there you basically won the game...
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Nemira
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 21, 2007 05:27 PM |
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This is nuts I tell you! I wanted to see for meself how good deleb is with that balista of hers. Is not fair :< I could creep with almost no creatures, defeat enemy heroes with much bigger armies *I had a couple of demons splited in 3 stacks, and advanced healing tent which was ressing them as well*... This practically lets you level 2 heroes at same pace, one with troops and deleb with balista of doom <.<
Well I am not sure what type of maps do you guys play / prefer, if you could give me some directions so I can try them out as well, or download if possible would be lovely :>
I believe they should really try to ballance the game in all aspects of multiplayer, for both small & rush games as well for normal / large & develop maps.
Is it possible to record full played games? Where one could see from start to end how one plays on such a map (the ones you guys play in mp games) how they start and build up and the tactic they use? I also play WoW, *well played, about to stop now since becomed very old and boring  *, and there where movies about characters and smart tactics / moves / tricks they perform in pve / pvp by pro players so rest of us could see and learn, which was both very entertaining and educative as well :>
It sounds a bit sucky to be forced to pick X or Y faction on a given map / vs a specific oponent type of faction, because else you have little to no chance :< I really hope this is not the case, and there are work arrounds for that with all factions in all phases of game, only skill / strategy and cunning determing the winner instead of sheer numbers or having the right hero with perfect build vs which your oponent has nothing to do! :>
Thanks again for all replies and info, you guys make me become addicted to this forums *squeels* :>>>
-Nemi
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted October 21, 2007 06:19 PM |
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Quote:
t sounds a bit sucky to be forced to pick X or Y faction on a given map / vs a specific oponent type of faction, because else you have little to no chance :<
Well its generally not like that but there are different maps and different castles may have advantage on given maps. I doubt that you can find a movie of a game just because games last couple hours. What you can find is just tactics people use in their games. Best way to learn is to play a lot. I did that and it worked. With each game you get some idea whats good to have and what to do in given situation. At first things may look one sided but if you practice it will get only better. When you still learning you can go with the flow and pick magic castles for small maps and might for long games that should help your winning ratio
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Nemira
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 21, 2007 06:27 PM |
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Thanks, I will do that and keep playing!
-Nemi
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted October 21, 2007 06:31 PM |
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted October 21, 2007 07:44 PM |
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Edited by sdfx at 19:47, 21 Oct 2007.
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Actually, this game is in fact much more complicated when it comes into might vs magic stuff. Even the statement might faction or magic faction doesn't make any sense - there are might and magic heroes while troops are just troops: a magic hero wants a durable army(even morale is not that important - a magic just wants durability to use magic long enough), a might hero wants a very offensive army so that he can own magic hero's troops in no time. Of course, a might hero DO care about morale cuz he wins games mainly by troops not the spells. Not to mention that his spells are almost completly passive(light magic).
Sylvan, for example may use a warlock(if lucky in tavern enough) as a "soak up" hero. Ossir fights walking stuff(easy), a warlock kills crucial shooters/casters(not really that easy) with fodder + spells so that there is no much need for Ossir's imbue arrow + destructive. It means that in the worst case scenario a warlock would hit and run shooters/casters making the job MUCH easier for Ossir with imbue arrow + destructive. Later, a warlock may simply do a hit and run or suicide himself with arma vs enemy main hero. Anyway, sylvan + warlock can be priceless. I didn't try those new druids but split druids + warlock + suicide empowered arma looks very hot. Also, with two heroes, artie split is much more optimal and often challanging because a warlock benefits mostly from magic arties while Ossir benefits mostly from might arties. But then for example, who should get(lets say) boots of the swift journey? Is a warlock strong enough to hande all the important fights? How badly he needs lvl ups? Wouldn't those boots be a waste on him cuz he would be forced to use the "disraceful" dark ritual anyway? How effective would be the use druid elders' mana feed on a warlock? Can Ossir afford to give to a warlock his druids? When(or should at all) elders(give mana) be retrained into high(give spellpower) druids? How far on a map both heroes should be from each other? How easy and how important is chaining armies between them? And so on..
Unfortunately, it depends a lot on what starting skills the warlock had at the start - some stupid might skills can make things very problematic. So again, the choice whether to use him/wait for someone better in tavern(or choosing whether to wait at all..) may be very tough. To complicate more even more, wizards' destructive just got much stronger - so maybe they are the best to be used/abused by sylvan..
Of course, a warlock/wizard may never be available in tavern or be too late, arma may not be there, phoenix cape/slippers/+spellpower may not be there, warlock's knowledge may be too low ect. But those "threats" don't change the fact that might heros and magic heros can work perfectly together and most importantly: they can compansate each others' weaknesses.
So yeah, there are a lot of things to learn in this game The basic concept is: heroes have movement points - creatures DON'T.
Also, the statement "playing a lot to get better" is IMO very unfair for this game. It just has so much negative nerdy connotation attached to it. IMO, the statement "thinking a lot to get better" is much more accurate. What I mean is this:
in RTS/FPS/maaaaany others: play a lot >> think a lot
in HOMM: think a lot >>>> play a lot
So, whatever someone does in homm - ALWAYS think how to improve. Playing and playing is meaningless - it's not a X game where it's usually obvious+automatic what needs to be done and beaching such game over and over again is everything. Homm is so much different - it's like "think a lot or perish" game.
Generally, the beauty of this game looks like:
A homm player X uses his brain and understands the game - he doesn't have to play a lot to be good. His brain kind of can easily compensate the "game-beaching" factor.
A some-other-game player uses his brain and understands the game - he still has to play and train a lot to be good.. Thinking here won't compensate the "game-beaching" factor.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 21, 2007 08:03 PM |
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Quote:
Also, the statement "playing a lot to get better" is IMO very unfair for this game. It just has so much negative nerdy connotation attached to it. IMO, the statement "thinking a lot to get better" is much more accurate. What I mean is this:
in RTS/FPS/maaaaany others: play a lot >> think a lot
in HOMM: think a lot >>>> play a lot
To this I can only answer: Chack mine and doomforge's replies when we were theorycrafting and not having played enough. Sure I can think of many things but unless I have actually tried them and seen what can break them, potential combos, how their alternative if there are any work etc all what I have thought may be useless. Why do you think it was hard to figure out the factions' actual strength all this time? There was not enough experience.
Yes, I have improved because I used my head but the more things I learnt after playing the game. Because practical application is what gives me new ideas and a better understanding of what might work - and I'm good in theories mind you.
On the other hand playing alone will not have much of an effect if you don't keep an open mind but as it is experience has more worth that thinking the game on paper.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted October 21, 2007 08:15 PM |
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Edited by sdfx at 20:16, 21 Oct 2007.
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Still, you improve MUCH more AFTER playing the game. By analyzing the mistakes. In other games you just KNOW almost immediatelty what you did wrong. In homm, you need to think and try A LOT of new things. To try a lot of new things you need to think of them.
And faction balance is completly map dependant. That's why for one person saying X faction is better than Y may sound like a noobish nonsense.
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Nemira
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 21, 2007 08:20 PM |
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What you say is true, but that comes along naturally *the thinking part* but lacking the knowledge of how to use a specific spell because it lacks a more comprehensive description has nothing to do with thinking. Also the thing that creatures can eat counterspell as well, and couple other stuff :> So thinking it has a big value in playing strategy games, but one who has the information can do the thinking with better performance, where one who has little insight into game mechanics / order of skills / perks / ultimates, functionality of different spells / effects, cannot achieve same results in his strategy :>
Also the skills and order of progression is puzzling me to some extent. As example when I play a wizard, I always try to get mark of the wizard as 1st skill no matter what other skills / perks are offered, because I did couple of times the mistake *when played with jhora as example* to pick counterspell 1st, or light magic as example, and then MoTW diden't pop for me again till late level 19 <.<
Is there a way one can predict the order show up for skills depending on what is offered? As example I have a save game now where I am offered on 1st level up both Counter spell and Mark of the Wizard. As both are crucial to me in this game, since my oponent is a Warlock, am not sure which one to pick being afraid the other one won't pop again for a long time <.<
So far I was going for MoTW, then picking light / summoning as soon as they where offered, then picking up perks for everything I was offered if they where looking tempting.
As far as my logic goes, the more skills you pick at first levels, the less the chance to get a specific perk for a given skill, because the pool of available and possible perks increases, is that correct?
Some more info on that would be much apreciated, as I never managed to get some of the nice stuff with my heroes, unless was accidentally and at higher levels when would make little to no difference on final outcome :> *and yes I do consult the heroes manual, the fans made one, before starting my game, but is hard to keep in mind the route I planned to go when all sort of tempting skills and perks pop up every now and then!* :>
Many thanks once more!
-Nemi
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted October 21, 2007 09:19 PM |
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There are many things that you need to learn that arent specified in manual. For example skill choices. You cant get 3 perks for a certain skill when you got advanced skill. Each lvl of skill allows you to gain another perk. So for example when you got basic skill and one perk you wont get any perk from that skill to choose from and that way you can better manage skill you get. So if you take magic mirror and got basic artificer motw wont show up until you get advanced. Even then you will be having a chance for motw showing up, its not certain. So the fewer trees you"open" the less choices you got and easier to obtain skill you want.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 21, 2007 09:31 PM |
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Yes I take two skills that I'll need for early as it gives more chances to get what you want. Also locking certain trees, say getting one ability and not leveling its skill more than basic makes it easier to get other abilities ie getting arcane training and having basic sorcery means you won't be offered another sorcery ability.
Keep in mind that in each level up you get: One basic skill, one advanced skill, one basic ability, one advanced ability(like counterspell).
Quote:
Still, you improve MUCH more AFTER playing the game. By analyzing the mistakes. In other games you just KNOW almost immediatelty what you did wrong. In homm, you need to think and try A LOT of new things. To try a lot of new things you need to think of them.
I did not say no to that. What I said is playing more will be far more efficient than looking the manual and thinking strategies. The thoughts that come after playing is a direct result from it.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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grow
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 21, 2007 09:43 PM |
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i would definatly have to agree, especially after tote release
manual isnt gonna tell u anything except what there is, but playing and all the give & take is how youll learn it
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nothing is predictable
grow me
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted October 21, 2007 10:21 PM |
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Yes, of course all things should be tested in practice. Only, stupid imba things like nature's luck don't really require it..
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Nemira
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 21, 2007 10:48 PM |
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Another question :> Do you only play with choosen hero at start *of course picking the one with best creeping potencial*, or you play random as well? Since I guess that adds to game depth and makes matches more interesting, not knowing what you will get at start and in tavern, nor what oponent will? As some peeps may get very used to play with a specific hero on given maps, and geting something else is it possible to completely screw them over?
Thanks!
-Nemi
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roy-algriffin
Supreme Hero
Chocolate ice cream zealot
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posted October 21, 2007 11:00 PM |
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Quote:
Another question :> Do you only play with choosen hero at start *of course picking the one with best creeping potencial*, or you play random as well? Since I guess that adds to game depth and makes matches more interesting, not knowing what you will get at start and in tavern, nor what oponent will? As some peeps may get very used to play with a specific hero on given maps, and geting something else is it possible to completely screw them over?
Thanks!
-Nemi
in TOH they play random everything i believe. I play multiplayer a lot less and in Ubis room people usually choose .You have to practice with specific heroes against the computer sometimes.
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"Am i a demon? No im a priest of the light! THE BLOODY RED LIGHT"
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 22, 2007 12:03 AM |
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Actually that's up to the combatants. For the most part each chooses the one he wants unless his opponent does not allow him - I've played only a few games all random. Naturally most players get good heroes like Vittorio or Ossir as opposed to 'normal' heroes but I trust that most people who have been around know how to play regardless of starting hero 
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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kermit
Known Hero
Soul hunter
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posted October 22, 2007 03:26 PM |
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Edited by kermit at 16:04, 22 Oct 2007.
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The skill choice problem
One common problem that stands in front of many players is choosing between advancing in a skill they already have and taking a new skill. Other times a choice has to be made between equally good skills. The thing to keep in mind when choosing skills/abilities, is that different skills have different probabilities of showing up, and that this probability depends on hero type. I'm going to try to put some mathematical insight into this problem.
The warlock example:
Warlock has 2% chance for light magic and 15% for destructive magic. However I should note that according to the laws of probability the chance for a skill to be offered again is drastically lowered compared to the chance it has to show up the first time. Furthermore, according to those same laws, a skill's probability to be offered next time increases each time it doesn't show up.
I'll sum it in a couple of formulas and take this example to illustrate:
Problem 1
Let's estimate the probability for a rare skill (one that has a 2% chance to show up) to be offered to you at some lvl considering it hasn't beeen offered before.
Formula 1:
Probability for rare skill = 1 - (1 - 0.02)^lvl = 1 - 0.98^lvl
Application of formula 1:
Taking the probability for a warlock to be offered light magic at lvl 20 considering it has never been offered before, we get:
Probability for light at lvl 20 = 1 - 0.98^20 = 1 - 0.66 = 0.34 = 34%
From this example we see that a warlock will get offered light magic in 1/3 of his games.
So you see that actually a rare skill has quite a high chance of appearing in a game, simply it will be offered later.
Problem 2
Now what about destructive magic being offered again if you skip it?
Formula 2
Probability for destructive to be offered twice = 0.15 * (1 - (1 - 0.15)^(lvl - 1)) = 0.15 * (1 - 0.85^(lvl - 1))
Application of formula 2
In the warlock example, if basic destructive was offered at some point before lvl 20, and it wasn't taken, the probability for basic destructive to be offered again at lvl 20 would be:
0.15 * (1 - 0.85^19) = 0.15 * 0.96 = 0.14 = 14%
Conclusions and rules of the thumb:
First, a rare skill has a high chance of appearing if the game lasts
Second, you should take a skill you rely on as soon as it appears or else it will not reappear for a long time.
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted October 22, 2007 04:18 PM |
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Probability is twice higher once skills are maxed - then 2 new skills (instead of one new and one "old") are offered at the same time. So, the light chance would be: 1-0.98^(2*20) = 55.43%
Actual value is a bit higher because of starting skills: For example Erunia starts with stupid attack and destructive. Both have 15% chance so her chance after she maxed attack, irresistable and destructive to get light after 10 level ups(from lvl most likely 7 up to 17) equals:
Base light chance = 2%
But irresistable, destructive and attack are out.
So, it's not 2%/100% it's 2%/(100%-15%-15%-10%)= 3.33(3)
Finally, the chance for erunia(who already has exp attack, exp destructive and exp irresistable) to get light after 10 lvl ups equals:
1-(1-3.33)^(2*10) = 50%
During 10th level up Erunia has all perks maxed so she has to finally take one of the 2 new offered skills. If it's not what she wanted then sorry - she may be forced to take some unwanted skill.
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kermit
Known Hero
Soul hunter
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posted October 22, 2007 05:03 PM |
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Edited by kermit at 17:04, 22 Oct 2007.
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@sdfx
I reckon you're right the probabilities do change if a skill is maxed out at some point. Although it's hard to take that into account in a model since you'd need to calculate individual probabilities between each 'maxed out skill event'. I don't think your calculations are correct either though since you only consider the final probabilty after skills are maxed out. The real formula would be a little complicated.
Let's just say that this little model, although not being entirely correct, allows the proof of concept for the general conclusions on skill choice.
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted October 22, 2007 06:03 PM |
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kermit your model isnt perfect also
Lets say that youve counted probability for destructive showing twice and in first lvl up you are offered destructive that you skip. Now all probabilities change because you gained some new informations.
Im not a fan of all those complicated calculations. I use simple rule. I take whatever i need most. When im warlock i always take basic destructive even if at the same time i get offered empowered spells which i might not get in the future. I need destructive asap and its better not having empowered spells then not having destructive or wait very long for it , which is also bad. Besides i always have some kills to max on couple next levels. This is just simple reasoning and dont need any complicated calculations to make good decisions.
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