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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Heroes 5 Strategy: Playing Academy Faction
Thread: Heroes 5 Strategy: Playing Academy Faction This thread is 36 pages long: 1 ... 10 11 12 13 14 ... 20 30 36 · «PREV / NEXT»
sdfx
sdfx


Famous Hero
posted October 22, 2007 06:18 PM

Quote:
Although it's hard to take that into account in a model since you'd need to calculate individual probabilities between each 'maxed out skill event'.

That's why I analized only Erunia's level ups between level 7(skilled maxed) and level 17(perks maxed).
IMO, my analysis is correct because Erunia would be taking perks only(cuz she want to keep getting 2 skills offered) so it means that each level up has exacly the same probability of getting the wanted skill.

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kermit
kermit


Known Hero
Soul hunter
posted October 22, 2007 06:20 PM

Quote:
kermit your model isnt perfect also

True enough
Quote:

Lets say that you've counted probability for destructive showing twice and in first lvl up you are offered destructive that you skip. Now all probabilities change because you gained some new informations.


This however is precisely what problem 2 is about
Destructive showing twice = you have skipped it once and get it offered later.

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kermit
kermit


Known Hero
Soul hunter
posted October 22, 2007 07:17 PM
Edited by kermit at 19:18, 22 Oct 2007.

Quote:
Quote:
Although it's hard to take that into account in a model since you'd need to calculate individual probabilities between each 'maxed out skill event'.

That's why I analized only Erunia's level ups between level 7(skilled maxed) and level 17(perks maxed).
IMO, my analysis is correct because Erunia would be taking perks only(cuz she want to keep getting 2 skills offered) so it means that each level up has exacly the same probability of getting the wanted skill.


Well actually taking into account Erunia's starting skills,
The probability for Eruina to get offered light at lvl 1 would be:
(2/100) * 100/(100 - 15 - 15 - 10) = 0.033 = 3.33%

If you only max out skills for first 6 lvls, you get
probability for light being offered during first 6 lvl ups is (1 - 0.97^6) = 0.17 = 17%

So here you need to take into account 2 cases: either Eruina had light offered during the first 6 lvl ups or not.

Case 1: Eruina didn't get light offered for first 6 vls ups, then:
the chance for her to get it offered at lvl 8 is then: 1 - (0.17 * 0.97) = 20%

Case 2: Eruina got light offered during the first 6 lvl ups (might be more than once, but let's say once for simplicity) . Then we'd get probability for light at lvl 8: ((1 - 0.97^5)*0.03) = 0.15*0.03 = 0.0045 = 0.45%

At this point she'd need to take a skill or perk which would shift the probability of getting light even more. This would lead yet to more cases to consider making it too complicated to continue.



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sdfx
sdfx


Famous Hero
posted October 22, 2007 09:05 PM
Edited by sdfx at 21:13, 22 Oct 2007.

But irresistable offers 3 perks too. Probability to get light for Erunia after 10 level ups with maxed destructive, attack and irresist = 49.3%
Then, at 10th level up lets assume Erunia picked enlightenment.
So, next 3 level ups to max enlightenment: 1-0.96^3 = 11.5%
Then, 3 level ups to take 3 enligghtenment perks: 1-0.96^6 = 21.7 %
So the total chance after 16 level ups:
1-(1-49.3%)*(1-11.5%)*(1-21.7%) = 65%

With first 6 level ups included, meaning after 6+9+3+3=21 level ups:
1-(1-18.4%)*(1-49.3%)*(1-11.5%)*(1-21.7%) = 71.37% chance to get light magic for Erunia

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Duncan
Duncan


Famous Hero
The Pathfinder
posted October 23, 2007 07:32 AM

Ghee guys, I feel like I'm reading Probability 101  Not to discourage anybody tho, but I like felunioz's idea better
____________
But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it.

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Nirual
Nirual


Famous Hero
Imbued Ballista
posted October 23, 2007 10:34 AM

the fun part about probability here is that the calculations made here don't really matter. No matter what you do, the choices offered are always random (well, other than a few exceptional scenarios), and you'll have to make the best out of it. There are some tricks to maximize your chances (like getting your current skills to Expert so you'll get offered 2 basic skills when leveling up), but there still is a random factor that might screw your plans over.
Good thing there are Memory Mentors now, but it's still a gamble, and each try costs up to 3000 gold per skill.
____________
In ur base killing ur doods... and raising them as undeads.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted October 23, 2007 11:11 AM

Quote:
the fun part about probability here is that the calculations made here don't really matter.

QFT!
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb

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kermit
kermit


Known Hero
Soul hunter
posted October 23, 2007 11:13 AM
Edited by kermit at 11:29, 23 Oct 2007.

If there is an 80% for horse A to win and 20% for horse B which horse will you bet on? True, you can rely on your luckyness for winning, and place your money on horse B but that choice is not rational. This is what probabilities are all about, rationalizing and predicting the outcome of random events. It is all precisely, as you mentioned Nirual, about maximising your chances.

Even the poorest of strategies has a chance of succeding. But the main difference between a good and a bad strategy is precisely that a good one will succeed much more often than the bad.

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Jabarkas
Jabarkas


Adventuring Hero
posted October 23, 2007 12:55 PM

Quote:
If there is an 80% for horse A to win and 20% for horse B which horse will you bet on? True, you can rely on your luckyness for winning, and place your money on horse B but that choice is not rational. This is what probabilities are all about, rationalizing and predicting the outcome of random events. It is all precisely, as you mentioned Nirual, about maximising your chances.


I would say it is more about reducing your chances for unfavourable outcomes.

You can hold out for a particular skill, knowing full well that each time you do so will increase the chance to get it. However, the big question is if you at the end can afford the possibility that the skill you so desire doesn't appear?

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sdfx
sdfx


Famous Hero
posted October 23, 2007 07:38 PM

Who said that probability is needed? All it does it just helps to understand and see some things more clearly. For example, wanting-destructive Yrwanna:
1st level up: 18.75 %; adv enl taken
2nd level up: 18.75%; exp enl taken
3rd: 18.75%; adv irr taken
4. 18.75%; exp irr taken
Total chance after 4 level ups to get destructive: 1-0.18^4 = 56%

Perk time(lets assume at that time empowered spells will be taken)
5th: 1-0.8125^2 = 34% empowered
6th: 1-0.8125^2 = 34% stupid perk
7th: 1-0.8125^2 = 34% another s.p.
8th: 1-0.8125^2 = 34% another s.p.
9th: 1-0.8125^2 = 34% another s.p.
10th:  1-0.8125^2 = 34% a new skill
The chance to get destructive during those 6 level ups:
1 - (1 - 34%)^6 = 91%

Total chance after 4+6=10 level ups:
1 - (1-56%)*(1-91%) = 96.4%

So, it's not 4/5 games, not 9/10 games it's more like 19/20 games on average where Yrwanna will be offered with destructive. Not to mention witch huts that gives a fixed 1/12 value. So, the chance after 10 level ups + the help of 1 witch hut:
1 - (1-56%)*(1-91%)*(1-11/12) = 99.7 % = almost 1

And just give it more meaning:
Yrwanna >>>> Sintar with almost 100% probability.

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Nemira
Nemira


Adventuring Hero
posted October 23, 2007 08:31 PM

I love this thread allready! :>

Another question as I played more games, and with different factions *I try to change them between games to learn their weaknes / strong points so when I encounter them as enemy I know what to expect and how to prepare / react *, and 1 thing is clear so far, magic favored like necropolis and academy can have a breeze at start no matter on mobs guarding mines and less need to go back to town for more troops / upgrades / magic guild / war machines etc. As example I tried playing with sylvan / inferno / haven. *I hold back on dwarves as I diden't complete their campaign yet, so they still hold suprises * I had same problem in all places. I had to stall with creeping till I got archers for haven, hunters for sylvan and at least a decent number of imps / horned with inferno. I skip on purpose picking a hero at start so I have to play with what I get and I beleive that helps me improve and understand the respective faction much deeper. So no deleb or douglas or vitorio or oris etc :> Even if I get them at start, I hire from tavern and try to use them as scouts or secondaries, as indeed their abilities are *at least deleb right from the start* are overpowered compared to other heroes and make a big influence in creeping / expanding speed. So back to my relatation, I do the usual build *on hard* tavern, hire 2nd hero, sort out troops, then scout, pick XP / loose resources until am able to build the backbone unit for easier creeping in each of those 3 towns. Of course I can beat peasents / conscripts / imps / blade dancers, skellies / archer skellies, at times archers with what I get at start, but the losses can't be 100% avoided, especially with haven who doesn't have a flyer or fast walker at start up so can't avoid enemy stacks while hero does the killing *which tends to be slow, very slow! *. Where as academy even without nur or havez, let's exclude havez too, and necros, can attain much better results.

Also about the statement that might oriented factions *and yes I believe inferno is might oriented than magic* that become stronger and close to impossible to beat by magic types in late games, I do not believe it's true unless the game is imbalanced. Maybe destruction spells become worse as game progresses, because you can only get so much spell power, where the units have no limit on growth, but dark spells are and will always be same potent, same with summoning and light. And despite I have yet to play a game as academy where I can get past basic artificier *since am more busy in geting 2-3 schools of magic to expert and some nice perks from those* I saw in wyp86 screenshots what titans can look at expert artificier skill with that crazy magic imunity and initiative. Not so sure about necro, despite they can get big numbers, lacking initiative and speed *unless assaulting a castle if you get the perks but who fights into castles <.< only AI mebbeh*, they will feel the power of a might faction before they can act. Tho perhaps there are ways arround it with a necro who never runs out of mana, he just needs standing power until oponent is oom then he can start rebuild and conquer I suppose :>

So yes I believe academy has the potencial to be best faction for all type of games due to insane creeping speed and miniarties on troops. Don't have TotE yet, still waiting to be delivered in my country, but unless there are some major changes I believe academy can hold the pole position.

Phew! That was a lot to say, now back to playing necropolis and trying to beat academy with different strategies!

-Nemi

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sdfx
sdfx


Famous Hero
posted October 23, 2007 09:18 PM

Yes, academy is kind of the best because they have a very good chance to beat anyone.
1. They have a good chance to kill more might heroes by rushing them with magic.
2. Also, a good chance for killing warlocks with counterspell, artificered protection and just because of the simple fact that academy's troops are simply superior in one way or another than dungeon ones. Also, the option to buy might arties from the merchant is very nice.
3. Good chance vs a necromancer too because of mass slow(the reason why dark vs necro is actually good), counterspell, artificer and banish.

Also, wizards are kind of imba vs demonlords because they have superior might(artificer) and superior magic(now +stupid cold death). Also, the main inferno strength(mana drain) is very weak here. Not saying that inferno can't win it. I mean that inferno has a low chance to win vs academy. IMO, too low.

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Jabarkas
Jabarkas


Adventuring Hero
posted October 23, 2007 09:32 PM

Quote:
So yes I believe academy has the potencial to be best faction for all type of games due to insane creeping speed and miniarties on troops.


Played an Academy-game on a tight map that was low on resources, yet rich in gold... that was actually the one time I felt Academy was weak.

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Nemira
Nemira


Adventuring Hero
posted October 23, 2007 09:45 PM

I don't think academy is the one who would have problems on a map poor in resources. Unlike rest of factions it doesn't rely on it's units to do it's job, am pretty sure a well build wizard more or less lucky with spells in mage guild and starting units let's say up to archmages, so no tier 5-6-7 ones, can attain very good results vs rest of factions if they where in same boat. Just because they can do so many with magic, and some of their units are either very resistant to magic or completely immune to several schools, also have very good growths and defences. I can't recall a unit as hard as golems or upgraded gargoyles to be taken out *squires come close but they are open to any magic*. The durability of academy units to almost all types of dmg even from early stages is IMO very unballanced on rush maps. Am no expert player of this faction, am struggling to make a pattern to a succesfull MMR tactic, but either I mess up with building order, either I can't micro manage the units as good as the wyp86 and other great players, or I don't cast the right spell at the right time :> Yet out of my noobishness I have the easiest time to expand and lvl a hero as academy compared to rest of factions. Now what I would LOVE to see and LIVE or RECORDED is a match between 4 wizards on former friends hard or heroic, none is able to pick jhora or havez or nur! Especially after seeing what wyp86 did on former friends heroic clearing the whole map in 1 month <.< No matter what I tried, I couldn't break in middle earlier than week 3 *maybe he ignores the underground and passes on some xp / 1 mine / bonuses to att / deff / spellpower and 2 dwellings?* and even if I would do same, and break in week 2 let's say, I couldn't kill the gold mine guards *especially if they are lots of archmages* since am not that good with anticipating skills showing up, am still trying to figure out how it works :>

-Nemi

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kermit
kermit


Known Hero
Soul hunter
posted October 24, 2007 11:12 AM

Don't rush too fast to the top or you might miss on the entertainment. Learning is the funnest part in any game.

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NIght_Heaven
NIght_Heaven


Adventuring Hero
Lonely star in heaven dream
posted October 24, 2007 01:20 PM

Quote:
I don't think academy is the one who would have problems on a map poor in resources. Unlike rest of factions it doesn't rely on it's units to do it's job, am pretty sure a well build wizard more or less lucky with spells in mage guild and starting units let's say up to archmages, so no tier 5-6-7 ones, can attain very good results vs rest of factions if they where in same boat. Just because they can do so many with magic, and some of their units are either very resistant to magic or completely immune to several schools, also have very good growths and defences. I can't recall a unit as hard as golems or upgraded gargoyles to be taken out *squires come close but they are open to any magic*. The durability of academy units to almost all types of dmg even from early stages is IMO very unballanced on rush maps. Am no expert player of this faction, am struggling to make a pattern to a succesfull MMR tactic, but either I mess up with building order, either I can't micro manage the units as good as the wyp86 and other great players, or I don't cast the right spell at the right time :> Yet out of my noobishness I have the easiest time to expand and lvl a hero as academy compared to rest of factions. Now what I would LOVE to see and LIVE or RECORDED is a match between 4 wizards on former friends hard or heroic, none is able to pick jhora or havez or nur! Especially after seeing what wyp86 did on former friends heroic clearing the whole map in 1 month <.< No matter what I tried, I couldn't break in middle earlier than week 3 *maybe he ignores the underground and passes on some xp / 1 mine / bonuses to att / deff / spellpower and 2 dwellings?* and even if I would do same, and break in week 2 let's say, I couldn't kill the gold mine guards *especially if they are lots of archmages* since am not that good with anticipating skills showing up, am still trying to figure out how it works :>

-Nemi



First of all the creatures of Academy are very weak.In Toe they are weaker. The only thing Academy can base on are the heroes. The best are Nur or Jhora,Havez or Nathir.So I dont know why people say to be banned they are the only chance Academy have.Academy is weak,unbalanced,have crappy creatures and mini artifacts cost too much.In Toe Academy is barely in the last place because all the alternates are very very bad. You will not win with Academy unless you relly on magic only.  

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Nemira
Nemira


Adventuring Hero
posted October 24, 2007 06:49 PM

As I sayd I don't have TotE yet, but still that much have changed? Did they alterate creature stats? Or the alternative builds for other factions are much better and can effectively change the outcome of battle?

-Nemi

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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted October 24, 2007 06:59 PM

Its not true that academy units are weak. Academy has one of the best lvl 1-4 tier units. Some new upgrades are also good.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted October 24, 2007 07:20 PM

@Night_Heaven
You had not played academy with fully patched game, shhh! Told you you were wrong and I'll continue. People who have played mp competitively with and against academy have proved things are not as you say, why do you continue?
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb

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Nemira
Nemira


Adventuring Hero
posted October 24, 2007 08:47 PM

As a curiosity, any of you knows for sure if AI playing Academy on any diff. level uses miniarties?

-Nemi

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