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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Heroes 5 Strategy: Playing Academy Faction
Thread: Heroes 5 Strategy: Playing Academy Faction [ This thread is 35 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 (6) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 ]
alcibiades Online
alcibiades

Hero of Order
and Light
posted October 09, 2007 08:05 AM

Interesting discussion. How much of an impact do you think Swift Mind will have on all this? A 0.25 ATB is quite notable, if you add the average ATB bonus of 0.125 that will correspond to your Hero having an Initiative of almost 15 for the first casting, if I'm not mistaken. That should mean that your chances for going before majority of enemy stacks are actually quite high, which should be quite significant, right?
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Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted October 09, 2007 08:20 AM

A lot, yes. If you can cast puppet on paladins before they play for instance (And hope he has no cleaning ) But arcane intuition arghh...

Nice signature there
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R-b-t3r
R-b-t3r


Hired Hero
posted October 09, 2007 08:33 AM

Quote:
Interesting discussion. How much of an impact do you think Swift Mind will have on all this? A 0.25 ATB is quite notable, if you add the average ATB bonus of 0.125 that will correspond to your Hero having an Initiative of almost 15 for the first casting, if I'm not mistaken. That should mean that your chances for going before majority of enemy stacks are actually quite high, which should be quite significant, right?

Wizards need logistics, (2% chance) and scouting from the logistics tree and eagle eye from the enlightenment tree .
I consider it highly impropable for a wizard to have access to this skill early though it could be important in late game when you can invest the needed skills.

Warlock has easy access to the skill through easier logistics and could become a factor early. Btw with the new tree you can't reach warlock's luck until after you have invested 6 slots in the luck tree which will severely hamper warlock at early levels, making warlock's luck a late game skill.
Under these cirumstances going enlightenment early and logistics for swift mind, might compensate. Beggining with 12.5 <-> 15 initiative is crucial when creeping archers or other high init units.

Swift mind is dubious for necro since logistics doesn't fit in well with necro builds. eg. exp sorcery, exp enlightenment, exp necromancy,  expert summoning and advanced logistics +scouting, swift mind and arcane intuition +motn with zoltan, is 19 levels already! You might as well play another character and aim at the ulti! You could skip sorcery but you would lose part of the advantage of swift mind.

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alcibiades Online
alcibiades

Hero of Order
and Light
posted October 09, 2007 10:41 AM

I did not realize Arcane Intuition was required - still, that's not too bad for Wizard, they don't urgently need Intelligence, and since Arcane Intuition has no further branches, you can actually take that ability and still reach both Intelligence + Graduate / Wizards Reward or Scholar + Arcane Exaltation. You will be cut off from Mentor, but Mentor is not required for any skills. And Arcane Intuition is not that bad anymore - can you learn spells from Djinns with new version!?

As for Swift Mind and Sorcery - since Sorcery only takes place after the first casting, and Swift Mind only works before the first casting, you don't need both skills to get the benefit of either - but sure, Sorcery can come in very handy.
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Olo
Olo


Hired Hero
posted October 09, 2007 10:47 AM

Quote:
Quote:
Try Razzak , he is real killer in the late game.


Or Jhora, for faster cast. With Razzak you'd also need Logistics and March of the Golems.


Nope you don`t need logistic, i mean it`s not a must.But it`s great skill
Jhora- +1 to initiative at level 20 isn`t much don`t you think ?compare it to +10 to attack and +10  defend to your golems

As for enlightenment and artificer - few extra knowledge can make mini- artifact a little bit stronger(it depend -look for ex. speed) -so what ?
there are many skills which help you more than this.

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havenlover
havenlover


Adventuring Hero
posted October 10, 2007 01:32 AM

Quote:
Quote:

summoning, dark and destructive for wizards are pretty much gambles.  summoning because thats its nature and dark and destructive because u could get owned by the random spells.

light is the safe one, but its not the creeping power that IMO wizards really want.

No my friend, light is pretty much worthless for a wizard. Going light, means that you are going late game, and it is the last thing you should be aiming for unless you are facing necro or inferno.

Dark is better for creeping and is very effective when used in the first 10-15 levels when even a light inclined might opponent can't build up his guild to protect himself with magic immunity.(which is incidentally what Cooch should have done in the first place. Leaving dwarves unharrassed till late game with a magic faction is pure madness!!! .
That means that unless your opponent is necro, dark is the way to go. Against inferno, go for both dark and light and watch the carnage

Also summoning is good to fall back to when creeping unless you haven't got neither Fire Trap nor wasp swarm in the first 2 levels which means you are unlucky (25% chance). Summoning is not a gamble, destructive for wizard OTOH is!

And i really can't understand why you consider dark such a risk. Dark has a 50% chance of popping up with library in 4th and 5th levels. Actually the chance of dark not appearing in 4 and 5 level is 25% which is not such a big gamble. Also in maps with utopias or mage vaults or Pyramids, going dark is even less a risk.
Also consider that you can use mass slow or mass suffering in great effectiveness against AI and player alike and you will surely have dark spells in the guild at levels 1-3.


summoning is a gamble, the difference in power(especially early power) between phoenix and no phoenix is ENORMOUS.

dark/destructive are both gambles because u can be shutout of spells.

sorry if thats confusing.  and I didn't say anything good about light so "contradicting" me by explaining how u dont like light isn't convincing me of ur comprehension.
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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted October 10, 2007 03:47 AM

Quote:
the difference in power(especially early power) between phoenix and no phoenix is ENORMOUS.


Thats just because phoenix is broken Summoning can be good without phoenix.

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R-b-t3r
R-b-t3r


Hired Hero
posted October 10, 2007 08:05 AM

Quote:

summoning is a gamble, the difference in power(especially early power) between phoenix and no phoenix is ENORMOUS.
Summoning is good because of wasp swarm, fire trap, phantom forces and an occasional firewall. Phoenix is purely imba but until then you have the aforementioned spells to creep and they DO the job perfectly.

Quote:
dark/destructive are both gambles because u can be shutout of spells.
You are going solo light magic with a wizard or sth?

Quote:
sorry if thats confusing.  and I didn't say anything good about light so "contradicting" me by explaining how u dont like light isn't convincing me of ur comprehension.
Light helps might factions. You are not might, so most of the light spells are completely useless for you. Divine strength, Cleansing, deflect arrows, teleport, magic immunity and word of light are worthless when you don't have a might advantage on the battlefield. Mass haste, endurance, righteous might, ressurection, help but you are forgetting that by the time you have cast one spell, most of your opponents heavy hitters (paladins,griffins for haven,  emeralds, sprites, war dancers for sylvan) will be upon you, meaning that you gain a minimum advantage from casting them, since the most important phase of the battle is the "first blood" phase (initiative 11+).
Buffing the remainder of your army guarantees you no victory, it may buy you time but nothing else.

OTOH all other schools do something at exactly the time you cast them: summoning either gives you allies or does damage, messes with initiative etc.
Dark hampers your opponent and sometimes hurts his creatures, and lastly Destructive is self explanatory
All other schools are rather direct, light is absolutely passive, and needs you to have a good creature base to work with so that it can be effective.

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havenlover
havenlover


Adventuring Hero
posted October 10, 2007 07:47 PM

Quote:
Quote:

summoning is a gamble, the difference in power(especially early power) between phoenix and no phoenix is ENORMOUS.
Summoning is good because of wasp swarm, fire trap, phantom forces and an occasional firewall. Phoenix is purely imba but until then you have the aforementioned spells to creep and they DO the job perfectly.

Quote:
dark/destructive are both gambles because u can be shutout of spells.
You are going solo light magic with a wizard or sth?

Quote:
sorry if thats confusing.  and I didn't say anything good about light so "contradicting" me by explaining how u dont like light isn't convincing me of ur comprehension.
Light helps might factions. You are not might, so most of the light spells are completely useless for you. Divine strength, Cleansing, deflect arrows, teleport, magic immunity and word of light are worthless when you don't have a might advantage on the battlefield. Mass haste, endurance, righteous might, ressurection, help but you are forgetting that by the time you have cast one spell, most of your opponents heavy hitters (paladins,griffins for haven,  emeralds, sprites, war dancers for sylvan) will be upon you, meaning that you gain a minimum advantage from casting them, since the most important phase of the battle is the "first blood" phase (initiative 11+).
Buffing the remainder of your army guarantees you no victory, it may buy you time but nothing else.

OTOH all other schools do something at exactly the time you cast them: summoning either gives you allies or does damage, messes with initiative etc.
Dark hampers your opponent and sometimes hurts his creatures, and lastly Destructive is self explanatory
All other schools are rather direct, light is absolutely passive, and needs you to have a good creature base to work with so that it can be effective.


so summoning is good because of all the spells except the one that ACTUALLY makes summoning good?

I don't think u and me work on the same competitive grounds.
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R-b-t3r
R-b-t3r


Hired Hero
posted October 11, 2007 03:45 AM

Quote:


so summoning is good because of all the spells except the one that ACTUALLY makes summoning good?


Summoning is good because of the early creeping advantage it gives you. Light doesn't help early at all.

Quote:
I don't think u and me work on the same competitive grounds.

What is this supposed to mean? I don't see your name on the TOH list, do you consider yourself a competetive player without joining TOH?

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Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted October 11, 2007 04:59 AM

ToH is not the ultimate competitive grounds Good players can be found on ubi.com or in lan. Though some ToH players can show you where you stand
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havenlover
havenlover


Adventuring Hero
posted October 12, 2007 04:30 AM

Quote:
Quote:


so summoning is good because of all the spells except the one that ACTUALLY makes summoning good?


Summoning is good because of the early creeping advantage it gives you. Light doesn't help early at all.

Quote:
I don't think u and me work on the same competitive grounds.

What is this supposed to mean? I don't see your name on the TOH list, do you consider yourself a competetive player without joining TOH?



u keep mentioning light like ur refuting something I said earlier about light.

please, take reading comprehension classes.
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Duncan
Duncan


Famous Hero
The Pathfinder
posted October 12, 2007 05:22 AM

Chill out guys  We're here to learn from each other thru discussions. There must be good points in any side of the arguments, never an absolute truth. Even if we could prove smthg with our opinion, let's just remember there's always a better player than us out there
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sdfx
sdfx


Famous Hero
posted October 12, 2007 06:18 AM

Light early is just bad - boosting some fodder is not that great. Can be effective when used on elementals or to boost the imba bird but it's nowhere near as effective vs the map as the remaining magic schools.
Summoning + dark/destructive(depends on spells in guild) is the way to go most of the time because academy is not cheap(city is expensive, artificer is expensive) so some nice creeping is crucial.

Light can be pretty good mid game vs magic heroes - it can resurrect 30 defense+ titans, mass haste is multiplicative with artificered haste etc. Vs might heroes it's still pretty bad - maybe at some point of the battle it would be crucial to resurrect something but I wouldn't assume that: fire trap/phoenix/frenzy/puppet/arma etc. would be most likely much more effective overall.

Late game, light magic obviously rules.

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alcibiades Online
alcibiades

Hero of Order
and Light
posted October 12, 2007 12:16 PM

Also, there is a crucial difference between Light Magic and the other schools: Might Heroes will generally have great use of Light Magic and little use of Summoning / Destructive and to some extent even Dark. These schools, particularly Summoning / Destructive, will be of great use for Magic Heroes, who will also have good use of Dark, but little use of Light.
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grow
grow


Adventuring Hero
posted October 12, 2007 03:57 PM
Edited by grow at 16:15, 12 Oct 2007.

someone mentioned attack being a must since titan, mage, golem are shooters, but i find academy to be a better defensive unit. basically letting your mages and hero do majority of the work especially in early-mid game, and of course titans when u get them.
I prefer using Nur(mystic) however u spell it, cause she start with sorcery>ability to gain mana in battle>eld arrow ( and i find her to get mark of wizard within first couple lvls most the time ). in early game i like to most importantly get archmage and master gremlin since first gremlin innitiative sucks. and with archmage,nur,mark of wizard this makes creep very efficient and powerful in beginning since u wont be worrying about regaining hero mana(especially if u have -20% mana cost from sorcery).  I dont know why so many people think summon is useless, firetrap is a great spell, firewall is nice for ranged units rowed in corners, obviously phoenix is very good( except for those dam wraiths can take it out anyday with its ability), arcane armor is obviously good especially with all the spell resistance ability academy already has, and also makes fist of wrath a great spell especially with mark of wizard and especially in beginning game when creep/etc...cause when u come across golems or elementals ( magic resist stuff ) 4 fist of wraths will take care of them all ( 2 each cast from hero, 1 from each stack of archmage ).  light magic is also good for resurrection and deflect missile mostly, resur is obvious why and mass deflect obvious but especially good with academy since their magic defense is very good and having decreased ranged damage makes basically anything coming from a distance ( not melee ) decreased and weak lol...and destructive is obviously good (has best damages) for wizard, and if u play academy defensivly like me, the master of storms and ice is great since this freezes enemy and turns come later, this gives u more casts for ur hero, mages, titans before enemy units have time to reach you ( or time to even think about it before dying lol),and of course strong aoe spells and aoe multiple freeze like circle of winter, and sap magic for even more defense, etc.... of course u can always play the academy more offensivly too, and take archery and battle frezy for your shooters and all that...i just said in beginning attack isnt a must for me anyway is cause most the time, especially in early-middle game, the enemy units are dead before the mages are out of mana or just ran out of mana and would have to shoot normal..anyway its all just my opinion, we all got em
* i was just thinking actually and Nur would be good with this new 'avatar of death' or whatever in tote, i havent played it yet but with her mana regeneration in battle u could use all mana for avatar and would gain more to still enable spell casting ( i suppose mark of necro would be efficient with avatar also )
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SirCharles
SirCharles


Hired Hero
posted October 12, 2007 05:02 PM

Quote:
Quote:
Hmm interesting points yes but I for once took Destruction magic with my Wizard and found it useless. It was a late game and I did like 200 damage with a lightning bolt?! Geez Destruction spells just didn't show up in my mage guild and I suppose Dark won't either.


As I indicated above, Academy is Light and Summoning oriented. As such, your level 4 and 5 spells in the Mage Guild will always be a Light and a Summoning spell. You won't get Destructive or Dark spells above level 3.

Creature spells depend on stack size of the casting creatures, but on a logarithmic scale or so - I don't know the exact details. As such, the larger your stack, the more you need to add to effectively increase the damage output. After a certain amount in the stack, it's better to switch to standard ranged attacks instead of casting damaging spells. Also, if you have spare slots in your army, split the caster stacks so you have more stacks casting. The overall damage will be larger that way.

Edit: By the way, I always found Lightning Bolt to be highly useless, unless you have the Stunning perk for them. You're better off casting Frost Bolt or Eldritch Arrow, if you don't want to use an AoE spell: they're cheaper in cost and do (a lot) more damage.


Are you forgetting the Library?  You have an excellent chance of getting destructive & dark spells in 4 & 5.

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SirCharles
SirCharles


Hired Hero
posted October 12, 2007 05:10 PM

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Quote:
Bull s**t i found it rather useless for them- you don`t need extra knowledge - your hero will have enough, +2 or +3 to spell power - is it really worth it ? I don`t say that enlightenment sucks-


What about artificer which is influenced by knowledge?  Granted the wizard has no need of intelligence perk.


Yes, enlightenment will help with artificer.  But is that enough to validate taking an entire skill set?  No.  You will get much more use out of a different skill than Enlightenment.  The bump in knowledge would have to be significant enough to change the mini's.  And in many cases it's not.  And when it IS enough to bump up the mini's, it's usually only by a few points here and there.  Nope...scrap enlightenment....even after they improved it with TotE by adding the +2 spell power secondary (arcane brilliance?...I think that's its name).

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Zethor
Zethor

Tavern Dweller
posted October 15, 2007 04:34 AM

It seems you cannot rely anymore (ToTE) on mage vault or pyramid (etc), to get a dark or a destructive spell as wizard.
After playing some games i noticed that the spell you gain from there is absolutely random now. It does not have on consideration the magic schools you have before entering.

I entered a mage vault with a necro. I had expert dark and summoning. I missed some spells like phoenix and frenzy, hoping to get them from there. Instead from those, mage vault "tried to teach me" word of light and implosion. Same happened with other games too (pyramid, utopia).

Can someone confirm this change on ToTE, please?

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Mytical
Mytical

Hero of Order
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted October 15, 2007 05:23 AM

In my opinon, skills are more hero related then specific.  For instance Jhora, maxing out sorcery with her is very helpful.  Though I have trouble with Academy (I'll freely admit it), my advice is always (for any faction) find skills that compliment your hero (if possible, dang those 2% skills).  Your hero starts with fireball work on getting the destruction skills to really aid that, and if available resist fire from Light Magic, so if your troops are caught in the blast they take minimum damage.  Got a golem master?  Then the march of the golems would be something to aim for, and possibly attack/defense skill to really beef them up.  Maybe that is why I stink at Academy tho .
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