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| Thread: Last week my local grocery store expanded it's Mexican food section | |
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friendofgunnar
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posted May 02, 2006 04:26 AM |
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Last week my local grocery store expanded it's Mexican food section
I thought that was an interesting development
Today in the U.S. there was a national worker boycott by illegal aliens. The point was twofold. Firstly the movement wanted to demonstrate that all these undocumented workers were a vital part of the american economy. Secondly they were agitating for some type of legal status for all these "guest workers". So I was curious was anybody here at HC affected by this work stoppage?
I personally am more fascinated by the changes that are being wrought in American society. It is now obvious to anybody that America is getting a massive Mexican blood infusion. It is now common to walk down the street and hear somebody playing mariachi or it's modern pop derived form. One of my favourite restaurants is coincidentally a Mexican restaurant. Will this become the norm?
Here's some interesting nougats of information: Mexican food is a direct descendant of meso-american/aztec cooking. Pretty much the entire repertoire was being cooked in much the same way before white people came to the Americas.
Mexican music (Mariachi) however is a European import. There were a lot of Germans and other Europeans who settled in Northern Mexico. The mariachi music is a direct descendant of this cultural infusion. Indeed when you compare German Polka and Mariachi the shared heritage is obvious.
To me a language is just a language. If my kids grow up speaking Spanglish that's not really too important as long as they know how to speak English at some point in their lives. America is in for some interesting times I believe.
You can politicize this thread or not, it's up to you.
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Lady_Milena
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Grannie Sweet Cheeks
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posted May 02, 2006 10:49 AM |
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Oh I'm going to make this as political as you please
Well first of all, this kind of issue is really not a trademark of the States. I recently watched a documentary on TV here that was telling of the same story in Holland. Illegal workers come, get dirty jobs to get some money and go back. Most of the people work in greenhouses - where they grow flowers and vegetables. Why does this happen? Because the temperature inside the greenhouses is 40 - 50 C and if Dutch people were hired instead, the price of production would go 7, 8, 10 times bigger because of the salaries they'd demand for the back-breaking labor.
Needless to say no one wants to buy expensive groceries or anything else. In fact this would make the country much poorer and would harm the economy instead of improving it. That's why some better developed countries need illegal workers at a steady, healthy level. That's exactly why immigrations turn a blind eye on the shady deals going on in the greenhouses.
Of course it's exactly the same thing in the States. We all know where all the oranges and tomatoes come from. The states in question such as Florida and California (especially California) by chance happen to be the closest to the Mexican border. It's really the combination of the hot climat plus the country's proximity.
Let's look at it from the Mexican point of view. Mexicans are extremely poor and that's no secret. They also live in the same weather conditions. A lot have relatives who've crossed the border and made some money to buy a little place to live or support the unemployed family. That's how rivers of Mexicans take a trip to the US to work illegally. Authorities in these states don't differ from the guys in, say, Holland. They need the cheap workers to be able to afford groceries.
Now where is the whole problem? I'm not quoting any statistics but making a wild guess that 95% of the Mexicans have to borrow money from creditors to pay to cross the border. We're talking about a lot of money here and there are no laws that regulate it. There is no guarantee that the illegal workers can make it and return the debts, that's how a lot of them end up dead. Should anything happen to them - murder, robbery, rape, they can't go to the police in fear they'll be deported. They can't go to a doctor if they can't sick, most because they can't pay the insane costs of it, can't stay in hospital. Needless to say, almost no one has SS and the benefits of it - even such as getting a phone or health insurance. When you work at 50+ C, 12-14 hours a day, you're likely to get sick at some point and can't just go to a drugstore and buy antibiotics without a prescription. Add that to the constant fear they live in. I sympathize with these folks.
Now everything would have been MUCH better if Mexicans would go work and come back when they've made the money they wanted. However, a great deal of them stay and also stay legally. Oh how you wonder. Oh that's easy. I think it's a flaw in American laws that any child born on American soil is an American citizen. The parents of American citizens also get permanent residence, regardless of their legal or illegal status at the time of birth. After 5 years residents become naturalized. When you get naturalized you have the legal right to call your immediately family to the States - such as a spouse, children, parents, siblings. And of course, as soon as they become naturalized, they can file a petition for their own families. This takes years but it's extremely efficient.
How easy do you think is to get pregnant or enter the country already pregnant and actually become a legal worker?
This is how the Spanish-speaking population has increased dramatically in the past couple of years. The bad part is that even they become naturalized eventually, most don't accept the American culture. They speak Spanish, watch Mexican TV, eat Mexican food and all in all never stop thinking of themselves as 100% Mexicans. I find this totally disgusting. I think this vicious practice of naturalizing aliens like that should stop.
In the light of my confession in Downhill times, I can understand why I could be alledged of double standarting because I am an immigrant-wannabe. So why do I have the cheek to say I'm different from all of these Mexicans? Well, there is a difference. Most immigrants especially of Hispanic/Latino descend refuse to acknowledge they live in the US apart from getting higher wages. The official language English, there is a standart of behavior and if you want to use the goods of the country, goods that other people have worked so hard for, you have to have respect for that. You're in the States? Speak English. You're naturalized? Behave American! I was driven crazy in LA and I felt like crying because I craved to hear English and I couldn't. For good lord's sake, every single sign in that state is in English AND Spanish. I can understand the Mexicans' derision of American customs and traditions but I can see they're aided in their attitude.
Honestly I think the Mexicans are getting brazen. Even though I sympathize with them for their poverty and hard lives, something I'm so familiar with, it's their own choice to cross the border and work illegally. I haven't heard of anybody doing that against their will. It's one of those downfalls of the States - of the presumption that everyone has equal rights. Legal foreign workers have to be paid as much as Americans, by law. This includes overtime too because it's a federal law. It would be discrimination to pass a bill and give the Mexicans a legal right to work at these wages under the state minimum. You can imagine big lawsuits then and I mean BIG. I think the best way to help the illegal workers is to pass a law that anyone is entitled to police assistance and health care despite their illegal status in the country. Of course I can't see a way of that happening.
It's a vicious circle, I'm telling you.
Just my 2 c.
~Edit~ P.S. I get the constant feeling I'm a serial thread killer. 
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God does not need exist to save us...
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted May 02, 2006 03:47 PM |
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Lady_Milena,
No you aren't. It's simply a case of having the time to respond to the bulk of your posts all at once. You make some very thoughtful and meticulous posts. Your thoughts are filled with complicated issues. A simple single paragraph would never do for a worthy response. I don't have that kind of time during the week therefore I'm forced to wait until the weekend to respond to your wonderfully detailed and descriptive posts. You're a great poster. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. If you wait a little longer you'll see that I and probably some other members will finally have the time to respond to you. You are not a 'thread-killer'. You are a good poster.
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Roses Are Red And So Am I
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russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted May 02, 2006 04:27 PM |
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Quote:
The bad part is that even they become naturalized eventually, most don't accept the American culture.
What culture? 
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Wiseman
Known Hero
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posted May 02, 2006 06:55 PM |
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That`s not even funny Russ.
Anyway, I agree with you Lady Milena. I`ve always believed that anyone who emigrates to another country should be prepared to assimilate into that culture. What if one day all those Mexicans decide that they don`t have enough rights and feel willing to fight for them if need be?
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Truth may be out there, but lies are inside your head.
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Trogdor
Legendary Hero
Words in a custom title
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posted May 04, 2006 12:53 PM |
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Quote:
To me a language is just a language. If my kids grow up speaking Spanglish that's not really too important as long as they know how to speak English at some point in their lives. America is in for some interesting times I believe.
You can politicize this thread or not, it's up to you.
The language your children speak doesn't really matter as long as you know your own mother tongue and the mother tongue of where your children currently reside.
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"Through the power of the dollar you can communicate with the dead." - Artu
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted May 07, 2006 12:22 PM |
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The legal definition of an immigrant in the US is a person who has been granted LEGAL permanent residence. This is commonly referred to as a "Green Card Holder".
In ADDITION to this are illegal immigrants, refugees and asylees (those seeking asylum). The only difference between a refugee and asylee is that a refugee applies for admission outside the US before entering, and an asylee applies at the port of entry or at some time after coming to the US. Refugees and asylees are not considered "immigrants", but are allowed to stay as long as they want, if they don't violate immigration laws. One year after they arrive they can apply for permanent residency.
Generally after 5 years of permanent residency, the person can apply to become a naturalized citizen. If an alien marries a US citizen, the waiting period is only 3 years. They must be 18 years old; speak, read and write English; and know some US history and government.
In general, children of naturalized citizens automatically become citizens. This is also true of children from outside the US who are adopted by US citizens.
Some statistics (the latest data I have is 2004)
10 years ending 2004
Hispanic Immigrants
Mexican Immigrants: 1,570,000
Central America: 645,000 (El Salvador the most)
Caribbean: 913,000 (Dominican Republic the most)
S. America: 575,000 (Columbia the most)
Canada: 145,000
Europe: 1,290,000 (UK, Russia, Ukraine, and former Yugoslavia the most)
Asia: 2,793,000 (China, India, Philippines the most)
Africa: 495,000 (Nigeria, Ghana, Morocco the most)
Australia: 19,000
Total 1995-2004: 8,365,000
(totals don't add due to rounding and some countries not listed)
Well, I meant to give some opinions about the specifics of this thread, but it's getting light outside and I haven't been to bed yet. Maybe later.
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friendofgunnar
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able to speed up time
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posted May 07, 2006 10:44 PM |
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Quote:
Mexican Immigrants: 1,570,000
I found that a bit amusing actually...
From several different sources I've seen a number of about 7 to 8 million illegal immigrants. I'd actually put it higher, maybe 10 to 11 but that's probably because I live in a city.
Most of my experiences with Mexicans have actually been positive. Almost all of the legals that I met could speak english to some degree. They've also acquired a not-negative stereotype of being hard-working family type people, which I can confirm. On the other hand I've run into quite a few illegals who didn't speak a word of english.
What I find to be a total crock of **** though is the idea that they don't pay taxes. All that effort that they spend for low wages gets absorbed into the american economy, usually in the form of fat bank accounts of the people who hire them. This is the most ridiculous argument out of all that I've heard so far. (and maybe they're sucking up lots of medical resources but that's a problem with our healthcare system, not them)
What troubles me most though is the prospect of millions of immigrants streaming across the border and there not being enough jobs for them, which hasn't actually happened yet but I believe it's a definite possibility in the future.
It's doubly ironic that this exact same discussion is currently going on in Mexico. The illegal immigrants in that case are the central americans from Belize, Honduras etc....
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted May 08, 2006 04:53 AM |
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Note to FOG: I wrote this before your post. I'll address it at the end. But I'll say this post is mostly about immigration in general, rather than illegals specifically.
In my opinion, the protests and boycotts are due to the Hispanic population being stirred up by people/groups with some sort of political agenda...I guess that should be obvious. The point is that I don't think most of those people would care about it, or even think about it, if not for organized groups stirring them up. This time it's about illegal immigrants, but usually the people are stirred up because of other immigration issues.
Personally I think the current protests are ridiculous. I mean they are protesting about something that's illegal by definition. They enter the country illegally and then somehow feel they have a "right" to be here. This country has the most lenient immigration laws in the world. I'm not certain, but I believe Canada has the second highest immigration rate, and it's only about 1/4 - 1/5 the number the US has.
So when this country has 4-5 times as many immigrants as the second highest country, what are these people complaining about? They want even more immigrants? They are protesting only for the sake of protest, to be a bunch of rebels stirring up trouble. When the truth is, they don't have any "right" to be here, they simply "want" to be here. So they act like a bunch of spoiled children who throw a fit when momma already lets them have candy several times a day, but puts some high limit on it.
The organizers stir up trouble by talking about racism and prejudice against Hispanics. They'll complain that the US wants to suppress their language, culture and heritage. That's a bunch of BS. It's effective because it plays on people's emotions, but effective propaganda is not the same thing as truth.
Sure there are people who are racist, and there always will be. But they are a minority. The issue has nothing to do with racism or any of the other propaganda. It's simply a matter of numbers. High population growth, whether through birth rate, or immigration, has significant effects on the country. It takes time to absorb the increased population.
When there are close to a million immigrants a year, how do you deal with that many? How many schools have to be built? How many roads, hospitals and other services need to be built. Infrastructure like that doesn't happen overnight, it takes many years to get funding and then build it.
Just to throw some numbers around (probably not accurate, but close enough to serve as an example). With 8.4 million immigrants over a ten year period, plus any children they have after moving here, let's say 20% are school age. That works out to maybe 1000-1500 new schools. So where does the several billion dollars to build those schools come from? And that's just the schools.
Except in schools, I don't think the language is really much of a problem. I lived in California for 12 years and it was unusual to meet a Mexican who didn't speak at least enough English to carry on a conversation. Most of the ones I met who didn't speak English were older. And for the most part those older Mexicans didn't move to the US by themselves, but because their children were here first and talked them into moving.
As far as cultural changes, so what if immigrants hang onto some of their culture? Sure, Cinco de Mayo is a foreign holiday....and in some parts of the country it's become almost as big as Fourth of July ( Quatro de Julio ?? ). But, like the Fourth of July in this country, the actual reason behind the holiday doesn't hide the fact that it's popular because it's a party. I mean beer, pretty women, music and fun....a party is a party, who cares where it originated.
Oktoberfest is also celebrated widely across the country. Does that mean we have to fear the Germans taking over our culture? Hell no, everyone likes to party no matter where they are from. In my city, the Greek festival is the most popular...great food. And we have Armenian festivals, Brazilian festivals and Chinese New Year....heck, there's probably 50 ethnic or national festivals every year just in my city (which isn't a large city). It's not one culture taking over "our" culture. It *IS* our culture, that's who we are, a mix of just about every nation. How many Americans can claim ancestry going back more than 3-4 generations? Not a very large percentage is my guess.
Personally I don't care about illegal immigrants. And I really don't care much if they are given amnesty. My only concern is that it would encourage even more illegal immigration. And I don't care about that either, as long as the rate is slow enough to absorb the population increase and doesn't place excessive burden on the economy. The problem is though, over the last 10-15 years, there's been a major increase in immigration, both legal and illegal.
IMO, we just need to slow it down for a while to give it time to be absorbed before the next big wave hits. The current rate has caused a large burden on the economy. The average usage by illegal Mexicans of our free social services is only about half the rate of the average American. But with the low income rate of Mexicans, the taxes they pay are only about a quarter of the average American. Therefore it's a net loss to the economy, at least as far as government burden is concerned. Yes, the low wages for migrant workers keep food prices lower. But we mustn't forget the overall impact. It's a matter of lower food prices vs tax costs to existing Americans.
@FOG --- The numbers I posted were for LEGAL immigrants, not illegal. Also the 1,570,000 Mexicans was over a ten year period, not the total. The total legal Mexicans is around 3,100,000. The numbers also don't include several categories of foreign born residents. So the total foreign born residents in this country is much higher than the numbers I posted. I only meant to give an idea of immigration RATE, not totals.
The best estimates I've seen for illegal Mexicans is somewhere around 5 million, and a total of around 7-8 million from all countries (2002 data with a growth rate of 350,000/year). About 1/3 of the total illegals are in California.
If I interpret what I read correctly, the total combined permanent residents and naturalized citizens is around 21 million. Add to that the illegals and it's around 28-29 million. That's about 10% of the population born outside the US.
BTW, all my numbers came from the INS. The info for my comparison to Canada came from what appears to be the Canadian equivalent to the INS (the CIC).
From what you've said, it sounds like you may be from southern California, or spent time there. I lived up north in Sacramento (and a short time in Carmel Valley), so my perspective on these things might be different. The impression I have is that southern California has more Mexican communities. Whereas in Sacramento, they pretty much are mixed with the population as a whole. There isn't really what you would call a "Mexican" part of the city.
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