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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Heroes 5: Magic System and Spells Discussion
Thread: Heroes 5: Magic System and Spells Discussion This thread is 7 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT»
Memep6
Memep6

Tavern Dweller
posted May 30, 2006 10:02 AM

Quote:
Ok i know i have been looking in the wrong places, but how do i get my spells 'empowered'? Usualy my hero can spare the additional mana, and 50% extra damage\effect can make a huge difference.

Come and take a walk with me, where the Angels fear to tread


To have youre spells empowered to need to be a Warlock.

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wulfe
wulfe


Hired Hero
posted May 30, 2006 10:40 AM

'Gets out bottle of black hair dye'
do'h
Thanks for the info
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Everybody belongs to the world and the world belongs to everybody

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Iris
Iris


Responsible
Supreme Hero
of Typos
posted May 30, 2006 07:21 PM

Addressing the points raised about Town Portal...

Yes, Town Portal was too powerful.  But that was back in HOMM3, only because of the luck involved.  Think about it, you have a measly 2/15 chance of getting TP in your Mage Guild, and then you need to get Advanced Wisdom AND Advanced Earth Magic to have it be effective.  So if you're lucky, you'll have met all three conditions while your opponent is still walking back to his town to pick up his army.  If that happens, then you've pretty much won the game.  Your enemy will be forced to choose between staying home and guarding his territory (thus sacrificing exploring other areas for resources), or risking leaving his home turf defenseless while he goes to capture more towns.

But now, they've taken out the luck factor.  Good for them.  Now every town can get TP, and anyone can learn TP.  However, they've also modified it to a point where the spell is pretty much completely useless.  Let's think, is there any time when you need to go to the nearest town possible?  I can't think of any.  There are only 3 reason I can think for why people like TP, and none of them can be solved by going to the nearest town possible:
1.  Pick up more creatures
2.  Go learn the spells in your Mage Guild
3.  Defend your town

Let's look at these.  First of all, pick up your creatures.  Hmm, there's no need for this now, since they've invented the "Summon Creature" spell (which is a great spell, btw).  But considering the spell summons creatures from the nearest town, and TP also takes you to the nearest town, you're presented with these two very difficult choices: Should you physically go home to pick up your army and then spend precious time and move points retracing your steps back to where you were, or do you just stand where you are and summon them to you?  Such hard choices...

So the first reason for TP is gone, we can look at the second one: Going back to learn spells from your Mage Guild.  Considering TP is a level 5 spell, and that you have to be on level 20 to even learn the spell, I think you probably have enough spells or a big enough army to get you this far.  You most likely won't miss a few simple spells.

Now the third reason is a very important one: Defending your town.  Unless the town you need to defend is really the town nearest to you, then, again, this spell is rendered useless.

So in conclusion, the only plausible reason to use TP in this game is if you have some AMAZING spells in the closest town that you absolutely MUST have.  Or, if you're "lucky," the town you need to defend is the town closest to you.  TP has no other uses in this game.

What should be done to fix this spell?  Make it so that you can go to any town.  Duh.    I guarantee that it will not be too powerful as in HOMM3.  Again, the luck factor is take out, so you cannot say one player has an advantage over another.  In addition, you have to be on level 20 to learn this.  If you get that far, you deserve some reward.



Now about Instant Travel.  What is the point?  It takes move points.  I think maybe it takes 50~75% of your normal amount of move points, but that's still pretty lame.  You can't even move past monster stacks, and you don't save that many move points in the end.  I liked Dimension Door much better.  There's a limit to how many times you could cast it, and it consumes a decent portion of magic points but only a small amount of move points.

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Offspring
Offspring

Tavern Dweller
posted May 31, 2006 05:24 AM

Getting all but summoned creatures killed

If I summon elementals or a phoenix, and all my combat units except for the summoned creatures are killed during the fight, is it considered to be a loss? What if I don't put all of my creature stacks on the field? Still a loss?

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Blue_Camel
Blue_Camel


Famous Hero
posted May 31, 2006 06:01 AM
Edited by Blue_Camel at 06:05, 31 May 2006.

Quote:
Dimension door is not the same spell. When cast, it drains movement points. Townportal is much better and should be lvl 5.

Although imo they should remove dimension door - it just makes it harder for mapmakers to create balanced maps.


well if the h5 map editor is anything like the h3 or h4 editors, mapmakers will easily be able to disable instant travel in the map properties.
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Iris
Iris


Responsible
Supreme Hero
of Typos
posted May 31, 2006 02:02 PM

Quote:
If I summon elementals or a phoenix, and all my combat units except for the summoned creatures are killed during the fight, is it considered to be a loss? What if I don't put all of my creature stacks on the field? Still a loss?



Assuming this is like HOMM3, then you'll be okay.  You'll just end up with a hero with no units.    So if you get into another battle, you lose automatically.

In HOMM3, I had Jeddite (guy who specialized in Resurrection).  He killed his enemy with lots of help from Resurrection, but since he didn't have Advanced Earth Magic, the units disappeared after battle.  And he was just an empty hero, walking around with no units.

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Memep6
Memep6

Tavern Dweller
posted May 31, 2006 02:08 PM

Quote:
If I summon elementals or a phoenix, and all my combat units except for the summoned creatures are killed during the fight, is it considered to be a loss? What if I don't put all of my creature stacks on the field? Still a loss?



You will win the fight, but you will lose the hero

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silentbobus
silentbobus


Adventuring Hero
posted May 31, 2006 03:33 PM

Just curious, but does anyone else think that mirror image (phantom forces?) is a little overpowered? Here is what i would do to balance it:

Make it so you can only copy a group at most once.
Make the chance to hitting the group slightly higher than 50%, around 66% or so.
This might have to do with Incorporal in general, but do not give the image the ability to countrstrike in the event the opponent attack misses because of the incoporal ability.
Limit the number of units that can be created based on the hero's spellpower.
Also, any gated units created by an incorporal stack should also be incorporal. Or maybe incorporal units shouldn't be able to gate...

I had one crazy battle when a phantasmal stack of my sprites was tearing everything up, it was attacked four times and each time they missed it and got scattershot.

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Memep6
Memep6

Tavern Dweller
posted May 31, 2006 04:27 PM

Quote:
Just curious, but does anyone else think that mirror image (phantom forces?) is a little overpowered? Here is what i would do to balance it:

Make it so you can only copy a group at most once.
Make the chance to hitting the group slightly higher than 50%, around 66% or so.
This might have to do with Incorporal in general, but do not give the image the ability to countrstrike in the event the opponent attack misses because of the incoporal ability.
Limit the number of units that can be created based on the hero's spellpower.
Also, any gated units created by an incorporal stack should also be incorporal. Or maybe incorporal units shouldn't be able to gate...

I had one crazy battle when a phantasmal stack of my sprites was tearing everything up, it was attacked four times and each time they missed it and got scattershot.


Yes... i bealive that is overpowerd, but you can counter atack a mirror image with any low lvl magic.

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sfidanza
sfidanza


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted May 31, 2006 05:02 PM
Edited by sfidanza at 17:07, 31 May 2006.

Come on, any damage dealt to the stack makes it disappear!! Of course the incorporeal ability can be frustrating if you're the attacker, but balancing is not making everything harmless...

And I often have the impression that's what lots of you want to do: "I don't use that, and it is powerful, let's make it harmless and call that balancing".
There are *many* other powerful spells out there, that can be as deadly as Phantom Forces, and that's why it is balanced already.

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silentbobus
silentbobus


Adventuring Hero
posted May 31, 2006 05:42 PM

Quote:
Come on, any damage dealt to the stack makes it disappear!! Of course the incorporeal ability can be frustrating if you're the attacker, but balancing is not making everything harmless...

And I often have the impression that's what lots of you want to do: "I don't use that, and it is powerful, let's make it harmless and call that balancing".
There are *many* other powerful spells out there, that can be as deadly as Phantom Forces, and that's why it is balanced already.


I don't know, personally I have been abusing this spell and gating during the Inferno campaign to win most battles without any loses. It just seems that allowing only one copy of a unit would be a natural balancer to it. At one point I had copied my stack of 12 Succubuses 4 times in the battle. Since my opponent was a horde of Rock Elementals there was no way to counter it. For some reason the AI seems drawn to killing the phantom forces, leaving your real units intact. There are certainly a lot of excellent spells, but I think that phantom forces gets my vote for best third level spell.

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Gus
Gus


Known Hero
Not-So-Bright Crusader
posted May 31, 2006 08:31 PM

Quote:
If I summon elementals or a phoenix, and all my combat units except for the summoned creatures are killed during the fight, is it considered to be a loss? What if I don't put all of my creature stacks on the field? Still a loss?



the moment your "real" units are all killed, your summoned/gated/whatever units all disappear, and you lose. don't listen to what the others said, they probably never have experienced the situation, otherwise they wouldn't give you wrong information...

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Gom_Jabbar
Gom_Jabbar


Promising
Famous Hero
Revealer of Truth
posted May 31, 2006 10:07 PM

Well, gus is absolutelly right. The only time when both heroes can lose is if you or your enemy casts Armageddon and all "real" creatures die.
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rainalcar
rainalcar


Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
posted June 01, 2006 06:26 PM

There is one other function of TP which you're failing to see - it allows much faster movement. If there are ever going to be really large maps in H5, in which players would easily take 3 or more towns, TP, AS IT IS, is phenomenal - it allows the transverse of the map much faster then normally, and, for the magic heroes mostly, killes the need for logistic, which is usualy a problem to get.

I played H3 a ton, and no matter how much I adore that game, and it is the game that I played the most ever, it's balance SUCKED - TP, DD, even Fly sometimes where game killers - not to mention Spellbinder's, Book of Earth/Air... Magic heroes were practicaly useless; on closed maps, where big artifacts are possible, it's not much fun to find the Black orb yourself, while the opponent finds Helm of Heavenly Enlightment... Or the super-overpowered damage spells (Implosion, my god) that surpassed the value of the non-damage spells at SP +10 (and that SP was usualy easily affordable, even to 20 and more - yes, we're talking MIGHT heroes here). But I am off my track now, sorry - so, TP/DD in H3 - simply game killers - it's really great when you get fireshield and frenzy, and magic mirror in your guild, while the opponent get's any of the big skills, Fly, TP, DD. I think that adventure spells are excellently handled in H5.

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FlawedParadigm
FlawedParadigm

Tavern Dweller
posted June 01, 2006 10:25 PM

BTW, is it just me, or is the Lightning Bolt spell terrible? It always shows far less damage than Eldritch Missile, which takes less mana and does more damage. Now, if I have Master of Lightning, that may be worth it...sort of.

Maybe it was balanced only for people with MoL, and it's fine, I haven't experimented with that yet. Could someone more experienced chime in?
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Gus
Gus


Known Hero
Not-So-Bright Crusader
posted June 02, 2006 01:01 AM

well, Lightning Bolt is better when your SP is better, because it doesn't have a base damage, unlike Eldritch Arrow.

You can check the formulae here:
http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com/heroes5/destructive_magic.shtml

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Shhejtan
Shhejtan


Hired Hero
posted June 02, 2006 12:17 PM

Uhmmm, how bout patching in some ineresting spells for a bit of variety? How come a  lot of people complained about some spells in heroes IV overlapping, and now that there are a lot fewer spells altogether, and most are overlapping (that is make each other redundant), people are complaining?

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted June 03, 2006 04:52 PM

hey, I have a question.
Are offensive spells still useless, as they were in h3? (except small maps) I like the implosion, but as everybody probably know, spells like bless and haste were 10000x better than it in h3 lategame.. :/

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rainalcar
rainalcar


Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
posted June 03, 2006 05:34 PM

I really don't know from where does this come from. Direct damage spells were monstrous in H3, there are many maps (i.e. Hourglass) where you could achieve ridicolous damages - once a friend of mine was able to find the Air orb, and achieve such high SP that his lightning bolt!!! toped over 2000 damage. That is more than 8 archangels. And I had Recanter... He also had CL with cca 2800 damage. Damage spells were far overpowered in H3, and as far as I can see, I like the destruction school a lot in H5, balance considering.

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Guldan
Guldan


Adventuring Hero
Soon to be banned...........
posted June 03, 2006 05:43 PM

Perhaps a stupid question, what is the use of armaggedon, knoqing that you will kill enemy AND friendly creatures? Isn't implosion much better, although only poited at one crature?

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