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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Numerical creature rankings
Thread: Numerical creature rankings This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT»
StormWarning
StormWarning


Promising
Famous Hero
Archmage of Thunder
posted September 13, 2001 12:20 AM bonus applied.
Edited By: Hexa on 26 Jan 2002

Numerical creature rankings

A while back, when I was really bored, I decided to do a statistical ranking of all creatures. (I told you I was bored. ) For those of you interested in how I came up with them, here's how:

Health x2
Average damage x6
Attack and defense each x5
Speed x8
+10 points for flying troops (devils included)
3x number of shots for range troops
varying numbers of points for special abilities (ranging from 2 for Familiars' magic channel to 250 for Faerie Dragons' spellcasting)

Cost-effectiveness is based on power rank vs. cost rank and ranges from +7 to -6. All creatures are 0 unless otherwise given.

The rankings:
1   Azure Dragon - 3137
2   Crystal Dragon - 2558
3   Rust Dragon - 2271
4   Faerie Dragon - 1730
5   Archangel - 1474
6   Black Dragon - 1464, +1 cost-effectiveness
7   Titan - 1425
8   Gold Dragon - 1332
9   Ancient Behemoth - 1162
10  Chaos Hydra - 1123
11  Arch Devil - 1108, -4
12  Phoenix - 1105, +2
13  Ghost Dragon - 1037, -1
14  Red Dragon - 1032
15  Angel - 1026, -1
16  Green Dragon - 1014
17  Hydra - 912
18  Devil - 896, -2
19  Firebird - 892, +1
20  Giant - 846, -1
21  Behemoth - 818, +1
22  Bone Dragon - 777, -1
23  Magic Elemental - 717, +4
24  Dread Knight - 659, -3
25  Naga Queen - 638, -4
26  Efreet Sultan - 634
27  Champion - 628
28  War Unicorn - 607, +1
29  Black Knight - 596, -1
30  Cavalier - 568
31  Cyclops King - 564, -2
32  Efreeti - 562
32  Naga - 562, -2
34  Enchanter - 557, +1
35  Unicorn - 551
36  Scorpicore - 530, -1
37  Psychic Elemental - 512
38  Wyvern Monarch - 503, -3
39  Diamond Golem - 500
40  Cyclops - 494
41  Manticore - 468, -3
42  Mighty Gorgon - 457
43  Master Genie - 455
44  Wyvern - 442, -2
45  Gold Golem - 437, +1
46  Power Lich - 432
47  Thunderbird - 428, -1
48  Minotaur King - 420
49  Pit Lord - 416, -1
50  Sharpshooter - 398, +2
51  Archmage - 393, +1
52  Dendroid Soldier - 389, +1
53  Zealot - 386, +1
54  Minotaur - 384
54  Gorgon - 384
54  Roc - 384, -2
57  Genie - 373, -1
58  Dendroid Guard - 361, +2
59  Lich - 360, -1
60  Pit Fiend - 358, -1
61  Vampire Lord - 353, -1
62  Iron Golem - 345, +5
63  Mage - 341, +1
64  Crusader - 340
65  Troll - 336, -2
66  Ogre Mage - 334
67  Greater Basilisk - 324, -1
68  Silver Pegasus - 323, +2
69  Storm Elemental - 316, +2
70  Medusa Queen - 308
71  Ice Elemental - 305
72  Magma Elemental - 301, -4
73  Dragon Fly - 300, +3
74  Monk - 297, -2
75  Evil Eye - 294, +1
76  Basilisk - 288
77  Pegasus - 281, +1
78  Energy Elemental - 279, -3
79  Grand Elf - 276, +2
79  Horned Demon - 276
81  Stone Golem - 271, +4
82  Royal Griffin - 269, +1
83  Medusa - 268, -1
84  Ogre - 266, -1
85  Swordsman - 265, -1
86  Vampire - 262, -2
87  Demon - 258
88  Earth Elemental - 248, -5
89  Wood Elf - 244, +1
90  Cerberus - 240, -2
91  Fire Elemental - 238, -4
92  Lizard Warrior - 233, +3
92  Orc Chieftain - 233, +1
92  Serpent Fly - 233
95  Beholder - 232, -2
96  Battle Dwarf - 228, +1
97  Nomad - 227
98  Air Elemental - 226, -2
99  Griffin - 225
100 Magog - 223
101 Water Elemental - 220, -4
102 Marksman - 215, +1
103 Hell Hound - 213, -1
104 Wraith - 210, -2
105 Harpy Hag - 200, -1
106 Obsidian Gargoyle - 199
106 Mummy - 199, -6
108 Wolf Raider - 191, +1
109 Wight - 189, -3
110 Orc - 179, -2
111 Dwarf - 177, +1
112 Halfling - 172, +7
113 Rogue - 171, +2
114 Lizardman - 166
114 Harpy - 166
116 Stone Gargoyle - 165
117 Gog - 162
118 Archer - 148
118 Boar - 148, -5
120 Wolf Rider - 146
121 Centaur Captain - 144
122 Zombie - 142, -2
123 Halberdier - 130
124 Skeleton Warrior - 124
125 Sprite - 121, +4
125 Master Gremlin - 121, +2
127 Centaur - 119
127 Walking Dead - 119, -3
129 Gnoll Marauder - 117, -1
130 Hobgoblin - 115
130 Familiar - 115
132 Infernal Troglodyte - 114
133 Pikeman - 109, -1
134 Pixie - 101, +3
134 Skeleton - 101, -3
136 Gnoll - 99, -2
137 Troglodyte - 94, -3
138 Goblin - 89, -2
139 Imp - 82, -5
140 Gremlin - 79, -2
141 Peasant - 42

These are more about the creature's usefulness than one-on-one fighting (no way does a centaur take down a walking dead in one-on-one, for example).

Edit: revived!@
____________
The calm before the storm is about to end.

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Preserver
Preserver


Promising
Famous Hero
Elemental Druid
posted September 16, 2001 12:17 AM

Boring?

Have you not something better to do?!!!!
Okay... I'm really impressed. It's always good to know were your favourites lies... Good work!

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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted September 16, 2001 06:52 AM

Yeah, Very nice work. This is only stats-wise though.Different out come in a battle though!
EG:Mighty Gorgon would absolutely whip a Master Genie!!(so too a Cyclops)
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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Coldfyrius
Coldfyrius


Promising
Famous Hero
Vice-God for Marketing
posted September 16, 2001 08:46 PM
Edited By: Coldfyrius on 16 Sep 2001

Why do you count atack and defense values for so much compared to HP and damage?
A system I think would be more accurate:
(HP*(1+(Defense value-1/20)))(Damage avg.*(1+(attack value-1/20)))(Speed+(3 if shots)+10)+( something for abilities based on how good the abilities are)
Here's level 1, in no order: (I also added Azure Dragon)
Peasant: 13 (Cost-efficiency: 1.3)
Halfling: 182.16 (CE:4.554)
Pikeman: 448.5 (CE: 7.475)
Troglodyte: 187.1 (CE: 3.742)
Gnoll: 277.2 (CE: 5.544)
Imp: 103.95 (CE: 2.079)
Skeleton: 231.85 (CE: 3.8641666...)
Centaur: 492.8 (CE: 7.04)
Goblin: 135.84375 (CE: 3.39069375)
Gremlin: 101.64 (CE: 3.388)
Pixie: 89.3025 (CE: 3.5721)
Azure Dragon: 17557312.5 (CE: 438.9328125)
More soon!
____________
"All the punks are gonna scream, 'yippee!'/ 'Cuz it's the thing that only eats hippies."
-The Dead Milkmen

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StormWarning
StormWarning


Promising
Famous Hero
Archmage of Thunder
posted September 17, 2001 02:46 AM

Before AB (when I first did this), the max values for any creature were:

600 for health
300 for damage
150 for attack, 150 for defense
144 for speed
72 for range ability (I know it's a lot, and it's probably not worth even close to that much when fighting a fast creature, but it's probably too low a value when facing Walking Dead)
So I picked the numbers so that health would be worth about as much as damage, attack, and defense put together, damge as much as attack and defense combined, speed is worth about as much as attack or defense, and range ability worth about half that much. It works out all right, but it doesn't really go based on one-on-one. For a while I was working on that too, but I haven't had much time to do it, and it will take much longer than this one did. If I finish before HoMM4 is out (right now I'd say 50-50 chance), I'll post that too.
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Coldfyrius
Coldfyrius


Promising
Famous Hero
Vice-God for Marketing
posted September 17, 2001 03:24 AM

I just realized that I made a mistake in my equation.  I
will need to take a square root at some point.
Revised Equation:
V=((H(1+(D/20)))(M(1+(A/20))))^0.5(S+10+(O/4))(B)
where
V=Value
H=Health
D=Defense Value
M=Damage
A=Attack Value
S=Speed
O=Shots
B=Ability Modifier (Based on ability strength.  No retal would be a boost of close to 100%, whereas Troglodyte's Blind immunity is pretty low.)
____________
"All the punks are gonna scream, 'yippee!'/ 'Cuz it's the thing that only eats hippies."
-The Dead Milkmen

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Nova
Nova

Tavern Dweller
posted September 17, 2001 10:40 AM

Eagerly looking forward to see these stats!
____________

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Coldfyrius
Coldfyrius


Promising
Famous Hero
Vice-God for Marketing
posted September 22, 2001 04:37 AM

V=((H(1+(D/20)))(M(1+(A/20))))^0.5(S+10+(O/4))(B)
CE = cost-efficiency
Peasant: 13.65 (CE: 1.365)
Halfling: 76.78 (CE: 1.19195)
Pikeman: 85.68 (CE: 1.428)
Halberdier: 95.55 (CE: 1.274)
Troglodyte: 54.54 (CE: 1.09074)
I. Troglodyte: 66.78 (CE: 1.0373846...)
Gnoll: 64.96 (CE: 1.2992)
Gnoll Marauder: 75.45 (CE: 1.0778...)
Imp: 41.25 (CE: 0.825)
Familiar: 52.48 (CE: 0.87465)
Skeleton: 60.62 (CE: 1.01)
Skeleton Warrior: 67.5 (CE: 0.96429...)
Centaur: 85.76 (CE: 1.22514...)
Centaur Captain: 109.98 (CE: 1.222)
Goblin: 47.25 (CE: 1.18125)
Hobgoblin: 55.76 (CE: 1.1152)
Gremlin: 39.48 (CE: 1.316)
Master Gremlin: 49.98 (CE: 1.2495)
Pixie: 41.95 (CE: 1.6776)
Sprite: 72.2 (CE: 2.40666...)
Comments:
1. This took me about 45 minutes to do.
2. Imps are overpriced; even Peasants are better pound for pound.
3. Sprites are almost twice as good for their price as the nearest runner-up, Pikeman, and nearly three times as good for their cost as Imps.
4. My opinion that Master Gremlins are overrated is now statistically justified.
5. Centaurs are better.
6. In order of power, the first level goes:
Centuar Captain
Halberdier
Centaur
Pikeman
Halfling
Gnoll Marauder
Sprite
Skeleton Warrior
Infernal Troglodyte
Gnoll
Skeleton
Hobgoblin
Troglodyte
Familiar
Master Gremlin
Goblin
Pixie
Imp
Gremlin
Peasant
____________
"All the punks are gonna scream, 'yippee!'/ 'Cuz it's the thing that only eats hippies."
-The Dead Milkmen

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted September 22, 2001 05:24 PM

Quote:
V=((H(1+(D/20)))(M(1+(A/20))))^0.5(S+10+(O/4))(B)



I don't see why you divide O (Number of shots) by 4. The only creature that I sometimes experience that they run out of shots is the Medusae. For all others the number of shots is normally irrelevant. Even for Medusa I usaually find themselves involved in hand-to-hand combat before they run out of shots.

Quote:

4. My opinion that Master Gremlins are overrated is now statistically justified.



I'm not convinced. The Master Gremlins is the only shooter in the list. The fact that you think they're overrrated may also depend on that you have applied a too small bonus for a ranged attack in your formula.

It would be interesting to see a comparison for level 3 creatures. How does Grand Elves and Evil Eyes compare to for instance Hellhounds and Serpent Flies?

For the Pixies/Sprites, it would be intersting to know the bonus you applied for Flying.

____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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Coldfyrius
Coldfyrius


Promising
Famous Hero
Vice-God for Marketing
posted September 23, 2001 12:22 AM

Djive:  My system isn't perfect.  I never said it was. It underrates shoters for the simple reason that this is a rating of one creature by itself.  One shooter alone isn't very good; shooters need support from other units that can stave off enemy troops so that they can fir heir arrows or energy spheres in peace. Maybe I'll look at the formula some more, but that would mean losing almost 2 hours of work.  
And without further ado:
Level 2 Ratings
Somewhat more abilities to figure in here.
Rogue: 122.32 (CE: 1.2232)
Boar: 124.96 (CE: 0.8330666...)
Archer: 103.87 (CE: 1.0387)
Marksman: 177.54 (CE: 1.1836)
Harpy: 138.74 (CE: 1.0672...)
Harpy Hag: 160.06 (CE: 1.5257...)
Lizardman: 128.18 (CE: 1.165272727...)
Lizard Warrior: 205.17 (CE: 1.4655)
Gog: 132.6 (CE: 1.0608)
Magog: 182.71 (CE: 1.044325...)
Walking Dead: 99.45 (CE: 0.9945)
Zombie: 129.95 (CE: 1.039584)
Dwarf: 146.72 (CE: 1.222666...)
Battle Dwarf: 180.44 (CE: 1.2029)
Wolf Rider: 113.92 (CE: 1.1392)
Wolf Raider: 186.2 (CE: 1.33)
Stone Gargoyle: 147.96 (CE: 1.138153...)
Obsidian Gargoyle:179.34 (CE: 1.120675)
Air Elemental: 261.79 (CE: 1.04716)
Storm Elemental 389.04 (CE: 1.4146909090...)
Notes:
1. Air Elemental, despite what 3DO says, is a level 3.
2. My system probably underrates shooters by a bit.
3. Gargoyle, Dwarf, and Harpy are the best real level 2s.
4. Gogs are better than Archers, and Lizardmen fall in between.
5. Boars are way too expensive to be worth buying unless you are drowning in gold.
6. Harpy Hags are very cheap.
7. In order:
Storm Elemental
Air Elemental
Lizard Warrior
Wolf Raider
Magog
Battle Dwarf
Obsidian Gargoyle
Marksman
Harpy Hag
Stone Gargoyle
Bwarf
Harpy
Gog
Zombie
Lizardman
Boar
Rogue
Wolf Rider
Archer
Walking Dead
____________
"All the punks are gonna scream, 'yippee!'/ 'Cuz it's the thing that only eats hippies."
-The Dead Milkmen

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted September 23, 2001 12:10 PM

Quote:
Djive:  My system isn't perfect.  I never said it was. It underrates shoters for the simple reason that this is a rating of one creature by itself.  One shooter alone isn't very good; shooters need support from other units that can stave off enemy troops so that they can fir heir arrows or energy spheres in peace. Maybe I'll look at the formula some more, but that would mean losing almost 2 hours of work.



I made my own system a while ago, although I never completed (put in the numbers) for more than three towns.

The formula looked like this:
Power = SQRT (1+0.04*(Attack value)*(Damage value))
Durability = SQRT (1+0.03*(Defence value)*(Health value))
Speed = 1 + 0.03 * Speed
Special: Anything else not modelled by the above.

Then the effectivity of the creature was:
Power * Durability * Speed * Special

I assigned the following values to the specials:
Flying: 1.2
Shooter: 1.5

If the shooter had hand-to-hand penalty:
Damage score is multiplied with 0.8
If the shooter had "shoots twice" then the damage score was multiplied with 1.5.
One extra retaliation was modelled as +10 defence skill.
Unlimited retaliation as +15 defence skill.
No retaliation on attack was modelled as +40% Health.

If and when I complete the rest of the towns I may send in the results. They will probably be similar.

____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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StormWarning
StormWarning


Promising
Famous Hero
Archmage of Thunder
posted September 26, 2001 12:30 AM

Djive, the reason to take into account number of shots is simple - in a massive skirmish between a throng of Medusas and a horde of Zealots (nothing else) where neither will be dead in 8 turns, the Medusa gets opened up to a few rounds of free shots while they slither across the battlefield before they get to wreak their vengeance. So in a very, very large battle the number of shots is important (I've seen a friend get his Titans down to one shot before, and I've also seen tactics where a shooter runs around avoiding a slower creature and fires a shot off when he is a safe distance away - it comes in handy in close battles). Then again it becomes less and less important as you go on (having 32 shots is not that big a difference from 24, but having 8 or 12 is huge compared to 4). Perhaps shots should get a square root to show their decreasing usefulness.
____________
The calm before the storm is about to end.

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Wyvern
Wyvern


Promising
Famous Hero
posted September 26, 2001 10:33 AM

Hmm... Something with Coldfyrius's system is wrong. If we don't count the Air and Storm Elementals, the Lizard Warriors are the best level 2 unit! Not that I'm not happy, I like every single Fortress creature but I never thought of the Lizard Warriors as strong... Maybe you have a calculation mistake?

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted September 26, 2001 06:31 PM

I made the complete list of the town based creatures.

I modified the formulae somewhat so the multipler for the power is 0,05 instead of 0,04, and multiplier for Durability is 0,04 instead of 0,03. This will give the higher level creatures an advantage because they have higher values than the lower level creatures here.

StormWarning: I want the stats to reflect normal combats. Normally, you never run out of shots or you do it so rarely that it's a matter of no concern. The advantage of having many shots is small in practise. (Your own ground troops reach the enemy shooters before you run out of ammunition.)

After the four first rounds of combat the battle is usually decided anyway. The stacks will be reduced to half or even more, so the opponent being able to fire at you while you advance may not make that much of a difference.

In some cases it's very difficult to judge that the value of a special ability. For instance the high rating of the Hydra and Chaos Hydra may be a result of overrating their special.

It should also be said that for some creatures the Power is much more important than the Cost effiency. Especially for the level 7 creatures.

All listed creatures are in the format:
(Name) (Power) (Cost efficiency) (Town)

Level 7+
Phoenix 390,0 17,3 Conflux
Chaos Hydra 525,4 14,0 Fortress
Black Dragon 629,7 14,0 Dungeon
Gold Dragon 567,8 12,6 Rampart
Archangel 692,9 12,1 Castle
Titan 532,7 10,1 Tower
Anc. Behemoth 317,0 9,8 Stronghold
Ghost Dragon 315,0 9,7 Necropolis
Archdevil 435,7 8,7 Inferno

Level 7
Hydra 397,5 18,1 Fortress
Firebird 262,9 17,5 Conflux
Behemoth 187,6 12,5 Stronghold
Red Dragon 334,9 12,2 Dungeon
Green Dragon 319,4 12,1 Rampart
Bone Dragon 216,3 12,0 Necropolis
Angel 340,6 10,5 Castle
Devil 281,1 9,5 Inferno
Giant 196,8 8,7 Tower

Level 6+
Magic Elemental 194,1 24,3 Conflux
Efreet Sultan 178,5 16,2 Inferno
War Unicorn 118,1 12,4 Rampart
Scorpicore 124,1 11,8 Dungeon
Cyclops King 118,1 10,7 Stronghold
Dread Knight 157,5 10,5 Necropolis
Champion 118,0 9,8 Castle
Wyvern Monarch 102,1 9,3 Fortress
Naga Queen 136,0 8,5 Tower

Level 6
Psychic Elem. 110,8 14,8 Conflux
Cyclops 104,5 13,9 Stronghold
Efreet 116,1 12,9 Inferno
Unicorn 101,8 12,0 Rampart
Manticore 87,3 10,3 Dungeon
Cavalier 99,2 9,9 Castle
Black Knight 118,8 9,9 Necropolis
Wyvern 79,1 9,9 Fortress
Naga 105,6 9,6 Tower

Level 5+
Mighty Gorgon 88,3 14,7 Fortress
Power Lich 74,8 12,5 Necropolis
Dendroid Sold. 52,7 12,4 Rampart
Minotaur King 64,6 11,2 Dungeon
Zealot 49,3 11,0 Castle
Master Genie 65,1 10,8 Tower
Thunderbird 73,7 10,5 Stronghold
Pit Lord 64,7 9,2 Inferno
Magma Elemental 31,5 6,3 Conflux

Level 5
Dendroid Guards 47,2 13,5 Rampart
Minotaur 58,2 11,6 Dungeon
Gorgon 55,1 10,5 Fortress
Roc 62,5 10,4 Stronghold
Monk 40,1 10,0 Castle
Genie 53,8 9,8 Tower
Pit Fiend 48,6 9,7 Inferno
Lich 51,7 9,4 Necropolis
Earth Elemental 25,1 6,3 Conflux

Level 4+
Medusa Queen 46,8 14,2 Dungeon
Silver Pegasi 37,1 13,5 Rampart
Horned Demon 30,6 11,3 Inferno
Vampire Lord 54,8 11,0 Necropolis
Ogre Magi 42,7 10,7 Stronghold
G. Basilisk 41,9 10,5 Fortress
Arch Magi 46,5 10,3 Tower
Crusader 37,1 9,3 Castle
Energy Elem. 28,6 7,2 Conflux

Level 4
Medusa 40,3 13,4 Dungeon
Pegasi 32,8 13,1 Rampart
Demon 27,9 11,2 Inferno
Basilisk 36,2 11,1 Fortress
Magi 36,6 10,5 Tower
Ogre 30,9 10,3 Stronghold
Vampire 33,4 9,3 Necropolis
Swordsman 27,8 9,3 Castle
Fire Elemental 22,0 6,3 Conflux

Level 3+
Iron Golem 24,7 12,3 Tower
Royal Griffin 27,3 11,4 Castle
Grand Elf 22,7 10,1 Rampart
Orc Chieftain 16,5 10,0 Stronghold
Dragonfly 23,8 9,9 Fortress
Cerberus 23,3 9,3 Inferno
Evil Eyes 24,0 8,6 Dungeon
Ice Elemental 27,1 7,2 Conflux
Wraith 15,6 6,8 Necropolis

Level 3
Stone Golem 19,2 12,8 Tower
Griffin 23,3 11,7 Castle
Orc 13,9 9,2 Stronghold
Serpent Fly 20,0 9,1 Fortress
Beholder 22,0 8,8 Dungeon
Hellhound 17,5 8,8 Inferno
Wood Elf 16,2 8,1 Rampart
Wight 13,5 6,7 Necropolis
Water Elemental 19,7 6,6 Conflux

Level 2+
Storm Elemental 26,1 9,5 Conflux
Magog 16,4 9,4 Inferno
Battle Dwarf 14,1 9,4 Rampart
Harpy Hags 14,9 8,8 Dungeon
Marksman 13,1 8,7 Castle
Lizard Warrior 10,7 8,2 Fortress
Zombie 10,2 8,1 Necropolis
Wolf Raider 11,3 8,0 Stronghold
Obsidian Garg. 12,7 7,9 Tower

Level 2
Dwarf 12,0 10,0 Rampart
Gog 11,5 9,2 Inferno
Archer 9,1 9,1 Castle
Harpy 11,5 8,9 Dungeon
Stone Gargoyle 11,4 8,7 Tower
Lizardman 9,2 8,3 Fortress
Wolf Rider 8,2 8,2 Stronghold
Walking Dead 8,2 8,2 Necropolis
Air Elemental 19,0 7,6 Conflux

Level 1+
Sprite 4,8 16,0 Conflux
Master Gremlin 4,5 11,1 Tower
Halberdier 7,2 9,6 Castle
Centaur Capt. 7,5 8,3 Rampart
Inf. Troglodyte 5,3 8,1 Dungeon
Hobgoblin 3,9 7,8 Stronghold
Gnoll Marauder 5,4 7,8 Fortress
Skeleton W. 5,1 7,2 Necropolis
Familiar 3,8 6,4 Inferno

Level 1
Pixie 3,4 13,4 Conflux
Gremlin 3,1 10,4 Tower
Gnoll 5,1 10,2 Fortress
Pikeman 6,0 10,0 Castle
Troglodyte 4,5 9,0 Dungeon
Goblin 3,6 9,0 Stronghold
Centaur 6,2 8,9 Rampart
Skeleton 4,7 7,8 Necropolis
Imp 3,1 6,3 Inferno

____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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Coldfyrius
Coldfyrius


Promising
Famous Hero
Vice-God for Marketing
posted September 26, 2001 10:48 PM

I'm still getting 205.17 for the value of a SOD Lizard Warrior.  This is due to the high HP, damage, and number of shots.
An AB or ROE Lizard Warrior is a pathetic 149.31.
I think this distortion is due to the fact that HP don't matter as much for shooters as they  do for hand-to-hand fighters.
P. S.: Maybe shots should be taken as a square root.  But I'd ahve to redo much of my work, and I won't have time until the weekend.
____________
"All the punks are gonna scream, 'yippee!'/ 'Cuz it's the thing that only eats hippies."
-The Dead Milkmen

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Coldfyrius
Coldfyrius


Promising
Famous Hero
Vice-God for Marketing
posted October 04, 2001 10:44 PM

Two for the price of one!

Level 3 Ratings
Mummy: 255.13 (CE: 0.850425)
Nomad: 278.64 (CE: 1.3932)
Griffin: 294.03 (CE: 1.47015)
Royal Griffin: 371.47 (CE: 1.547791666...)
Beholder: 283.39 (CE: 1.13356)
Evil Eye: 375.08 (CE: 1.3395817...)
Serpent Fly: 282.80 (CE: 1.28545454...)
Dragon Fly: 400.72 (CE: 1.669666...)
Hell Hound: 251.77 (CE: 1.25885)
Cerberus: 519.62 (CE: 2.07848)
Wight: 214.30 (CE: 1.0715)
Wraith: 263.47 (CE: 1.145521739...)
Wood Elf: 229.46 (CE: 1.1473)
Grand Elf: 317.40 (CE: 1.410666...)
Orc: 159.63 (CE: 1.0642)
Orc Chieftan: 227.64 (CE: 1.379636363...)
Stone Golem: 236.38 (CE: 1.5758666...)
Iron Golem: 319.30 (CE: 1.5965)
Water Elemental: 266.25 (CE: 0.8875)
Ice Elemental: 410.03 (CE: 1.09341333...)
Comments:
1. As usual, 3DO has vastly overpriced one of the neutral units
2. Orcs suck.  It's that simple.
3. Cost-efficiency seems to be listing upward slightly.
4. With the exception of Wraith, you should definitely upgrade your level 3s statim.
5. Water Elementals cost vaslty too much.  And Air Elementals are better.
6. I checked my work on Cerberus.  It surprised me too.
7.  In order:
Cerberus
Ice Elemental
Dragon Fly
Evil Eye
Royal Griffin
Iron Golem
Grand Elf
Griffin
Behlder
Serpent Fly
Nomad
Water Elemental
Wraith
Mummy
Hell Hound
Stone Golem
Wood Elf
Orc Chieftain
Wight
Orc
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Level 4 Ratings
Sharpshooter: 607.50 (CE: 1.51875)
Gold Golem: 651.50 (CE: 1.303)
Swordsman: 376.50 (CE: 1.255)
Crusader: 574.24 (CE: 1.4356)
Medusa: 352.91 (CE: 1.1763666...)
Medusa Queen: 450.02 (CE: 1.363696969...)
Basilisk: 447.47 (CE: 1.376830769...)
Greater Basilisk: 559.52 (CE: 1.988025)
Demon: 376.50 (CE: 1.506)
Horned Demon: 413.28 (CE: 1.530666...)
Vampire: 497.34 (CE: 1.3815)
Vampire Lord:     1022.18 (CE: 2.04435)
Pegasus: 433.65 (CE: 1.7346)
Silver Pegasus: 538.52 (CE: 1.95826909090...)
Ogre: 396.48 (CE: 1.3216)
Ogre Mage: 572.22 (CE: 1.43055)
Mage: 524.92 (CE: 1.49976)
Archmage: 542.80 (CE: 1.206222...)
Fire Elemental: 306.72 (CE: 0.876342857...)
Energy Elemental: 415.80 (CE: 1.0395)
Comments: 1.
1. Vampire Lords officially kick arse.
2. Fire Elementals are weak and cost a lot.
3. Demons and Swordsmen are exactly equal in power.
4. Pegasus is, in old M:tG slang, broken.  Stronger than average, cheap, and you get five a week.
5. The neutrals don't suck for once.
6. Ogre Magi are a match for vitually everything their own level.  Grade your Ogres.
7. In order:
Vampire Lord
Gold Golem
Sharpshooter
Crusader
Ogre Mage
Greater Basilisk
Silver Pegasus
Archmagre
Mage
Vampire
Medusa Queen
Basilisk
Pegasus
Energy Elemental
Honed Demon
Ogre
Swordsman = Demon
Medusa
Fire Elemental

P. S.  I'm back.  Look at me not posting something in the Tavern about this.  Wonder how long before somebody notices.
____________
"All the punks are gonna scream, 'yippee!'/ 'Cuz it's the thing that only eats hippies."
-The Dead Milkmen

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StormWarning
StormWarning


Promising
Famous Hero
Archmage of Thunder
posted October 05, 2001 12:34 AM

I knew it was only a matter of time, Coldfyrius. Welcome back.

I'm still working on the one-on-one ratings. Considering that there are over 7,000 matchups without even allowing neutrals (which I'm not doing because I'm really not interested in seeing how many Peasants it takes to beat an Azure ), it may be a while. I've finished Castle's level 1 through 4 and upgrades. The criteria:
If a creature wins one on one, it gets 1 point for each creature it is able to beat.
If a creature loses, it loses half a point for each creature beyond the second it needs to win. (Example - if an archer can beat 5 imps, the archer gets 5 points and the imps (needing 6 to beat 1) lose 2.) Why I did it this way I'm still not sure, but I'm not redoing the first 1000 or so matchups to adjust the system.
Later I will add a bonus to this so that all creatures are at 0 or above. Then I'll combine this and my previous rankings in some way.

Here are the first 8 one-on-one ratings (again, these will get a bonus later so all creatures are positive or zero):
Pikeman = -782
Halberdier = -652
Archer = -810 (note that doing half damage in melee drops these guys below Pikemen against the big, fast creatures)
Marksman = -642
Griffin = -122.5
Royal Griffin = -97.5
Swordsman = +97
Crusader = +242.5
____________
The calm before the storm is about to end.

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Coldfyrius
Coldfyrius


Promising
Famous Hero
Vice-God for Marketing
posted October 05, 2001 11:41 PM

Level 5 Ratings:

Troll: 748.53 (CE: 1.49706)
Diamond Golem: 784.80 (CE: 1.0464)
Monk: 416.16 (CE: 1.0404)
Zealot: 723.58 (CE: 1.6079555...)
Minotaur: 783.72 (CE: 1.56744)
Minotaur King: 935.55 (CE: 1.6723404...)
Gorgon: 750.00 (CE: 1.428571428751428571...)
Mighty Gorgon: 1129.46 (CE: 1.8824333...)
Pit Fiend: 685.92 (CE: 1.37184)
Pit Lord: 838.11 (CE: 1.1573)
Lich: 680.58 (CE: 1.2374181818...)
Power Lich: 990.01 (CE: 1.6500333...)
Dendroid Guard: 610.59 (CE: 1.7445428571...)
Dendroid Soldier: 714.67 (CE: 1.6815764705...)
Roc: 848.54 (CE: 1.4142333...)
Thunderbird:       1032.01 (CE: 1.4743)
Djinni: 732.07 (CE: 1.3310363636...)
Master Djinni:     1063.43 (CE: 1.77238333...)
Earth Elemental: 325.36 (CE: 0.8134)
Magma Elemental: 465.87(CE: 0.93174)
Comments:
1. MG wins.  Best CE too.  Nobody's surprised about that, right?
2. Not only is EE not good enough to be a level 5, it's not really good enough to be a level 4.
3. Roc is the undisputed king of base level 5.  Stronghold is doing pretty nicely in these ratings.
4. Despite the demon-resurrection thing, Pit Lord is weak and overproced.
5. The neutrals are pretty strong, but Diamond Golem is a little too expensive.
6. Don't bother to upgrade your Dendroids.  The base has a better CE.
7. In order:
Mighty Gorgon
Master Djinni
Thunderbird
Power Lich
Minotaur King
Roc
Pit Lord
Diamond Golem
Minotaur
Gorgon
Troll
Djinni
Zealot
Dendroid Soldier
PIt Fiend
Lich
Dendroid Guard
Magma Elemental
Monk
Earth Elemental
____________
"All the punks are gonna scream, 'yippee!'/ 'Cuz it's the thing that only eats hippies."
-The Dead Milkmen

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Dajek
Dajek


Known Hero
Psychedelic Knight
posted October 06, 2001 07:04 PM

So many errors in these posts... Masster gremlins worse than sprites?  LOL
____________


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Coldfyrius
Coldfyrius


Promising
Famous Hero
Vice-God for Marketing
posted October 06, 2001 09:04 PM

Dajek:  Master Gremlins are nice and all, but Sprites have the "no enemy retaliation" ability.  That means that once they close ranks with the Master Gremlins, tey get 2 strikes to the MGs' 1.  They will win.  Here, I'll even drag out my trusty-rusty handy-dandy battle testing map.  In eight 9999 vs. 9999 battles, the MGs never won and an average of 5661.625 Sprites survived.  Plus Sprites are cheaper and more numerous.
------------------------------------------------------------
Level 6 Ratings
Enchanter: 1190.03 (CE: 1.58670666...)
Cavalier: 1457.41 (CE: 1.45741)
Champion: 1777.07 (CE: 1.480891666...)
Manticore: 1190.73 (CE: 1.40085862352...)
Scorpicore: 1706.29 (CE: 1.62503829523...)
Wyvern: 1080.91 (CE: 1.3511375)
Wyvern Monarch: 1682.48 (CE: 1.52975272727...)
Efriti: 1663.20 (CE: 1.848)
Efriti Sultan: 2245.16 (CE: 2.0410545454...)
Black Knight: 1749.01 (CE: 1.457508333...)
Dread Knight: 2260.34 (CE: 1.50689333...)
Unicorn: 1430.67 (CE: 1.6831411764...)
War Unicorn: 1767.67 (CE: 1.8607052631...)
Cyclops: 1247.40 (CE: 1.6632)
Cyclops King: 1637.33 (CE: 1.4884818181...)
Naga: 1626.75 (CE: 1.4788636363...)
Naga Queen: 2257.94 (CE: 1.4112125)
Psychic Elemental: 1719.72(CE: 2.29296)
Magic Elemental: 2521.38 (CE: 3.151725)
Comments:
1  The Elemental data are not typos.  I checked.
2. Dread Knights are better than Naga Queens, but it's extremely close.
3. Manticores aren't as bad as people say.  That said, they suck.
4. Wyverns are the weakest, and the most expensive pound-for-pound.  MGs arew actually better.
5. Enchanters are pretty weak; Cyclopes are better by about 60 points.
6. Naga Queen and Cyclops King are the only upgrades that reduce CE.
7. In order:
Magic Elemental
Dread Knight
Naga Queen
Efriti Sultan
Champion
War Unicorn
Black Knight
Psychic Elemental
Scorpicore
Wyvern Monarch
Efriti
Cyclops King
Naga
Cavalier
Unicorn
Cyclops
Manticore
Enchanter
Wyvern
____________
"All the punks are gonna scream, 'yippee!'/ 'Cuz it's the thing that only eats hippies."
-The Dead Milkmen

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