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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: What is the most dissapointing feature of Heroes V?
Thread: What is the most dissapointing feature of Heroes V? This thread is 18 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 · «PREV / NEXT»
chpr
chpr


Adventuring Hero
posted July 25, 2006 11:30 PM

ahaha, don't mess making chess and homm, we are talking about PLAYING these games! Don't ever say these snowz to adults, cuz they will laugh to death

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Rune_B
Rune_B

Tavern Dweller
posted July 26, 2006 11:44 AM

Making AI for HV is much, MUCH more difficult than making an AI for chess.

Correct me if I’m wrong.  You have one move rule for every chess piece (no spell, no special ability, no striking back ability etc. ) and you have to move on an 8x8 square. Only one opponent. That means you can make an AI who can calculate lot, ton’s of moves and make lot’s of strategies without dying waiting for next move. Chess players know that if you play on an high difficulty level you have to WAIT A LOT for your opponent move

Now do the math’s for HV.
6 faction, with 7(14) creatures with different types of might & magic attacks, with morale and luck rolls with special abilities and artifacts with magic resistance, etc. And not to mention the development of towns (which is also different, somehow, for each town) based on an undiscovered yet map (at chess you always see opponents pieces and you just have to calculate what are next possible moves) and an unknown opponent.

The idea is that a chess like AI will let you play this game (if you don’t want to get old waiting for next move...) only on NASA like supercomputer.

So chess AI is based on lots of calculation on few moves possibilities - HV AI is based on lots of calculation on ton’s of moves/actions possibilities. So that’s why you have specific AI for each map (who also cheats...for calculation reasons) and you will have to wait a lot for a good randomly map generator (with computer AI)

Almost everybody here complains about HV AI. If that has not involve a lot of costs I’m sure NIVAL could insert an nightmare level with human thinking AI (chess like) and I’m also sure that after a lot of work nobody will use this level because of huge waiting time for your next move. Probably the next complain will be about huge waiting times and how much money you have to give for a new computer to play Heroes

IMO the balance in superb graphics, good AI and reasonable waiting times for opponents next move is very good.






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hellwitch
hellwitch


Known Hero
Skeleton Ruler
posted July 26, 2006 12:48 PM
Edited by hellwitch at 12:54, 26 Jul 2006.

Quote:

Ok, the reason why chess is so much more difficult is because one fatal move is SO deadly.  In fact, EVERY move is "fatal" in the sense that it will completely determine who the winner is.  In HOMM, that's not the case.  There is so much "room for error".  THAT'S what makes making AI difficult or not.  It's not ONLY the combination of factors, is the CRITICALNESS of those factors as well.


In this path of thinking the "X" and "0" game is most dificult because a good player can't be ever beat

The true way is: After each turn in Homm it is hard to find which counter turn is best.Even in most times there is no one best counter turn or there is a lot of very good counter turns. While in chess mast o the GM know their first 20 turn and even know oponent first 20 turn. That is beacuse chess is more predictable that Homm there is possible 2-3 or even only 1 best turn.I don see where is the difucult to implement such logic.

For the guys top of me. I'm developer and i had made a simple chess game for 2 weeks with quite good AI when the game is Spanish. To make a complete AI for chess is ofcourse   more dificult task. But in chess most of the calculations are well known and it is not so dificult to make the full AI on medium level. While it is not so easy to make full calculation for Homm.Thats why AI tactics are simple and the AI is stupid. Ofcourse this can be fixed and Nival could make AI better but it will never be good as living player(without huge handicap).

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hellwitch
hellwitch


Known Hero
Skeleton Ruler
posted July 26, 2006 12:51 PM

And please check this:
-The implementation of very good Homm AI is more dificult against chess. NOT the palying.

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hellwitch
hellwitch


Known Hero
Skeleton Ruler
posted July 26, 2006 12:53 PM
Edited by hellwitch at 12:54, 26 Jul 2006.

Quote:
why is ubi so disorganized. i could have created a less bugged, better artificial intelligent game in my basement.


Strog words . Make it and the whole community will support you and even donate for better Homm.

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dfortae
dfortae


Known Hero
posted July 26, 2006 02:58 PM
Edited by dfortae at 15:06, 26 Jul 2006.

Quote:
And please check this:
-The implementation of very good Homm AI is more dificult against chess. NOT the palying.


You just indirectly proved my point.  The fact that PLAYING chess is so much more difficult than HOMM 5 (against another player) should TELL you something.

Why is it harder to PLAY but not to PROGRAM?  As someone mentioned, it's easy to do half-ass AI and get an AVERAGE chess game.  It's likewise just as easy to make average AI for HOMM 5.  Try making HOMM 5 so it will beat every player vs making a chess game that will beat every player.  Remember, the person doing the programming and coming up with the algorithms must OPERATE at the same level that frequently beats others.  If you make a chess game that beats most other people, YOU could beat those other people.  Since it's HARD to beat most people, that means it's hard to find a developer CAPABLE.

MUCH MUCH easier to make a HOMM game to beat most people than a chess game to beat most people.

Anyway, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

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Rune_B
Rune_B

Tavern Dweller
posted July 28, 2006 08:07 AM

Quote:
Quote:
And please check this:
-The implementation of very good Homm AI is more dificult against chess. NOT the palying.


You just indirectly proved my point.  The fact that PLAYING chess is so much more difficult than HOMM 5 (against another player) should TELL you something.

Why is it harder to PLAY but not to PROGRAM?  As someone mentioned, it's easy to do half-ass AI and get an AVERAGE chess game.  It's likewise just as easy to make average AI for HOMM 5.  Try making HOMM 5 so it will beat every player vs making a chess game that will beat every player.  Remember, the person doing the programming and coming up with the algorithms must OPERATE at the same level that frequently beats others.  If you make a chess game that beats most other people, YOU could beat those other people.  Since it's HARD to beat most people, that means it's hard to find a developer CAPABLE.

MUCH MUCH easier to make a HOMM game to beat most people than a chess game to beat most people.


Anyway, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.



Chess AI is based also on comparing your possible future moves with tons of chess grandmasters moves from their wining matches which are easy to store in one game database

And do not forget that chess is thousand years old!

I guarantee that if UBI&Nival are sure their game will be played for, let’s say, 50 years and there will be professional players to play in HoMM V tournaments (like in chess), with lot of promotions, big money involved, I’m sure you will get your human like AI ....

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antipaladin
antipaladin


Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
posted November 11, 2006 09:43 PM

acilidbies u didnt said about the annoying stupid story..
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yasmiel
yasmiel


Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
posted November 14, 2006 02:55 AM

With time, this game gets better and better... new content and features are added, adn atm it is a very enjoyable game...

Now.. practicaly the only major flaw i have against H5(andH3) is still the bad old... CHAINING!

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B0rsuk
B0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted November 14, 2006 08:56 AM

With time, yes. And with money, of course, because you have to pay for functionality lost between Heroes3,4 and 5. They call it 'expansion packs' for some reason.
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hellwitch
hellwitch


Known Hero
Skeleton Ruler
posted November 15, 2006 09:41 AM
Edited by hellwitch at 09:41, 15 Nov 2006.

for me the most dissapointing is the lack of time to play

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ZeroXcuses
ZeroXcuses


Known Hero
posted November 20, 2006 05:02 PM

dfortae should not have to defend himself

The guy is a programmer/developer. Why are you guys trying to tell him about something you know nothing about?

My brother is a computer programmer, and he says that it's extremely difficult to develop AI for chess. Most of the games made are the programs recycled from previous chess games.

You remember those professional chess players playing against that super-computer? Why was it such a big event? Because it's hard to make a decent AI to match those of the best human minds. Computers have not been around as long as chess (50 years or so), yet it was a "big deal" about that one computer.


Sixteen movable pieces in chess compared to seven in Heroes V during a battle. No comparison. You have 7! combinations of moves versue 16! (factorial (!) means (X)(X-1)(X-2)....until X approaches 0.) Not even close.


The AI for HV, unless already in place as dfortae pointed out, should not be that difficult to tune up, unless it's a buch of code that has a bunch of conditional statements, where removing one could mean disaster for the entire program.

Oh, and the fact that the AI "cheats" counters any argument against the map AI. You know Nival was cutting corners, there.

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fishjie
fishjie


Adventuring Hero
posted November 21, 2006 10:13 PM
Edited by fishjie at 22:50, 21 Nov 2006.

Quote:
Quote:
The AI can't be very good in all kind of heroes games(turn based strategy) because they are not so simple like chess and calculation are not very usefull for the AI. That why the AI have basic strateries witch a player can learn and can make counteractions.

The very best of Homm games is the multiplayer mode when you have real thinking enemy. The single player mode is only for learning  and take fun with the campaigns.



While it is very difficult to implement good AI (I'm a game designer/developer myself), it can be improved.  

Also, chess is about the most complicated type of game you can have.  It's MUCH more complicated than Heroes of Might and Magic 5 or any other version.  The restricted angles of movement, the length of certain pieces being able to move, predicting 10 steps into the future what someone will do, etc.  Heroes is 'Attack, Move (any direction), Wait, Cast, or Defend'.  You pretty much KNOW what a person is going to do with each unit.  Usually attack/move.  Casters will ususally cast until out of mana.  VERY EASY TO PREDICT.  Also, chess has MANY MANY more pieces on the 'board'.  This is what increases the complexity MUCH more than Heroes.

Basically, the bottom line is the AI is pretty poor and can be drastically improved.  But, I have my doubts this will be done.  Once a complicated algorithm is in place for things such as AI, it's VERY VERY difficult to "enhance" it in useful ways.  This doesn't mean it CAN'T be done, it's just unlikely the company will spend alot of time doing this when they could spend their time on other things.  Remember, any time type spend "maintaining" their game, they're LOOSING money.  They COULD be making MORE money by making new games or working on "expansions".  People won't avoid buying Heroes 5 just because a few people on an internet forum complain about AI.  Therefore, it's a low priority for the company to enhance most likely.


im a software developer with computer science major too.  ps i play chess too.   not well, but i played in high school tournaments and had a weak n00b 1100 USCF rating (1200 scholastic) after competing in some real tournaments.   but its enough to know the basics of the game.  ill gladly play some of you in  yahoo to show i know what im talking about

chess is NOT more complicated.   in chess, the game has already been "figured out" for the first 20 moves or so.   it is theoretically set in STONE what the "best" move is for any given opening.  so much for complexity.   its only interesting for humans because it would be very hard to memorize all the variations (its a far better idea to master the strategy and understand the game instead), plus there are psychological and mental factors at play.   not so for a computer, which can easily calculate all the variations, and has access to a database of CENTURIES of games.

there are only 64 tiles in chess with relatively FEW legal moves per position. this means a database of all the possible games can be constructed.   the computer is not "thinking" when it makes a move, its just doing a search on all the possible moves, looking ahead 10 or even 20 moves to the resulting possible positions, and then pruning out the worthless ones while assigning a weight to all the good ones, before finally picking one.  i'd tell you more, but alas i did NOT take an ai course while i was in computer science.   but thats the general gist of it from what i understand.

this is why a computer can beat chess GRANDMASTERS!  i follow chess ocassionally, and basically in the past few matches, the worlds GMs have gotten owned.   the best they can hope for is a draw.   occasionally they can win by making random moves in the endgame (assuming they can even last that long) to hope to freak out the comp, but even then, the developers do some tweaking and its over for the human. a computer on the other hand, can NOT beat experts in computer turn based games without a huge unfair advantage.

Quote:


Sixteen movable pieces in chess compared to seven in Heroes V during a battle. No comparison. You have 7! combinations of moves versue 16! (factorial (!) means (X)(X-1)(X-2)....until X approaches 0.) Not even close.




you simplify too much here.   there are sixteen pieces in chess, but NOT ALL OF THEM CAN MOVE at any point in time.  this is especially true for pawns (they can only move forward and capture diagonally.   in closed positions, pawns dont see any action). there are FAR more units in heroes than in chess.

in chess, black and white have the SAME pieces which always start in the same FIXED locations.   in heroes, the two opposing armies will have DIFFERENT units with DIFFERENT possible starting positions (already this makes calculating all the moves complex because there are far more possible STARTING positions/units), ALL of whom can move, each with their own special abilities, each able to move to FAR more tiles.   not to mention the myriad of spell choices a hero has. and thats just the battle ai, not the overall world ai, in which a computer would have to have a far more complex long term strategy.  there's just SO MANY MORE CHOICES to make here.  defend which castle?  attack which castle?   chase enemy hero, run from enemy hero, flag which mine?  buy what units?  build what buildings?  when you factor in the multitude of heroes, castles, mines, and terrain in the game, thats a whole lot of possibilities with lasting repurcussions.  

basically, to develop a good ai for heroes, the computer would have to "understand" the game.   ai is currently not able to do that.

so what i'm saying is, heroes 5 ai is sloppy and sucks, and can definitely be improved to be at heroes 3 level ai, but even then, its not gonna be as good as a human.

and who said being good at heroes is easier than being good at chess?   thats silly.   chess is a more widely played game, but that doesnt mean its more complicated.   read some good chess books if you want to get better at chess.  

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted November 22, 2006 12:45 AM

Very good post fishjie.

Actually, what bugs me about the AI is not the way it handles battles. I think it does that fairly well.

What bugs me is sloppy AI not collecting ressources and not flagging mines. That simply screams to heaven of a AI programming that is miles away from how you would actually expect anybody remotely familiar with the game to play, and that's a huge problem imo.

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PhoenixReborn
PhoenixReborn


Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
posted November 22, 2006 03:32 AM

Quote:
Very good post fishjie.

Actually, what bugs me about the AI is not the way it handles battles. I think it does that fairly well.

What bugs me is sloppy AI not collecting ressources and not flagging mines. That simply screams to heaven of a AI programming that is miles away from how you would actually expect anybody remotely familiar with the game to play, and that's a huge problem imo.


I do agree with you guys, the a.i. needs improvement both on the adventure map and in tactical battle.

One person on these boards once made the point that the a.i. doesn't pick up the resources because it doesn't need them.  This makes a certain amount of sense, it's conserving movement points etc.  However this idea falls flat when the a.i. leaves out powerful artifacts for me to pick up.

Heroes III A.I. had it's problems too.  But I agree the adventure map a.i. was better.
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted November 22, 2006 11:36 AM

heroes III A.I. was WAY better. It could even do tricks like dimenshiondooring to a tiny island to run away from your stronger hero.  It wasn't brilliant, yes, but it was decent enough not to whine about it.

The h5 one sucks, but nival seems to listen to community's requests. Just look: they say new spells will appear, training will get balanced, the caravans made a comeback.. etc. So, perhaps in a second expansion, the A.I. will get reworked. Maybe.

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Darkeye
Darkeye


Promising
Famous Hero
of the Deep
posted November 22, 2006 09:50 PM

What I find most dissapointing, is actually somethings which has never been a part of HOMM, but now as it is 3D and all should have as most other games - I am talking about CUSTOMIZED CONTROLS!
Why on earth shouldn't you have the freedom of choosing your own controls?
It buggers me that i have to move my hand down to the right end of the keyboard in order to scroll with the arrows. When playing on 1400x1050 there is a way to move the mouse to the end of the screen.

Another irritating trait is that the tooltips are xtremly sensitive to movement so each time you move your mouse the tooltip dissapears.

More customizing=more fun!

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Muril
Muril

Tavern Dweller
posted November 22, 2006 10:45 PM

Allied type maps (similar to those in h3 expansions) - or rather lack of it... This really sux especially when e.g. with one friend or so we want to play vs some comps (4?) - yes, of course we can play being in alliance anyway, but i think it should be here... and that pesky thing that an earlier of our duo doesn't see if computer is at his terrain or sth.

Story/3D engine - i like it and dislike it from the same reason - too big similarity to warcraft 3. At a moment i thought it was kinda trade between heroes and warcraft - w3 will introduce heroes into play and h5 will make the look of the game + story having w3 as basis...
Story maybe isn't the same but the beginning - Arthas and Nicolai even look similar.

the skill/abilities (i rather compare all to h3 as h4 for me was kind of mistake or failed experiment) - which were quite new for me - are quite nice and after all it is an interesting advancement in the RPG part of the game.

I heard sth about returning caravans or making combat similar to h4 (simultenous attack and retaliation of the attacked) - jesus pleas no... reduce h4 influence to minimum

i haven't played or read threads about HoF yet but i hope i will not find any of these changes there.

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Darkeye
Darkeye


Promising
Famous Hero
of the Deep
posted November 23, 2006 11:24 AM

And I forgot to mention: Why are enemy heroes still available at the different castles? Why should Sylvans be able to recruit their enemies the darke elves at a sylvan tavern? It has always been so, but that is no reason not to change it.

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PhoenixReborn
PhoenixReborn


Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
posted November 23, 2006 03:36 PM

The caravans are in, they work well, and you don't have to use them.  But you can attack them.

As for the hero thing: I would imagine because there are only 8 heroes for each faction!  Besides it's fun to lead wizard troops into battle with a knight hero.
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