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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted May 24, 2006 08:37 AM |
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Quote:
All I'm saying is that this is an EASY FIX. Make skill choices up to the player, improve and/or expand the skill list, and dump the garbage.
See?
Hear hear!
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Cabranth
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 24, 2006 01:54 PM |
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To alcibiades:
Thanks for the second. I wasn't disapointed with the new skill/ability system as such, just the old system of forced choice.
As far as your other suggestions...
Graphics: Resource HOG.
Number of Towns/Classes: 6 is too few (hmm...expansion?)
Missing Creatures: Some new ones are good, some missing ones were good. 50-50.
Innovation: What do you want? How do you improve on H3 other than tweaking? Remember what happened with H4. Do you want improvement, or do you want a different game?
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Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted May 24, 2006 09:22 PM |
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Edited by Vlaad at 21:59, 24 May 2006.
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Emperor’s new clothes...
1) In my opinion the most disappointing feature is the lack of innovation. However, I am not going to whine again about heroes in combat, commanders, creature experience, creatures without heroes, interactive landscape, neutral heroes, mixed neutrals, caravans, new objects, potions, simultaneous retaliation, ranged retaliation etc... Rest in peace, NWC.
2) The interface can still be changed, though.
I think wait is a must in Heroes. In addition, I would like to:
- skip the intro every time
- turn off adventure map animations (especially the annoying trees, which not only cause the lag but also make me sea sick)
- skip the one unnecessary screen when entering a town
- buy all creatures
- see the kingdom overview
- look at the high scores
The hero screen is a mess, with one needless screen for skills and the paper doll that looks like a backpack (I can never remember if I have a shield or not). The text often requires pointless scrolling (in creature screen as well), the font is too small, some words abbreviated, English is broken here and there...
In towns the selected option for the building list should be saved (I have to enable the complete every time I start a new map).
3) I admit I am worried about the AI. So far, I have noticed it:
- wanders aimlessly (it’s still better than H4, though  
- doesn’t attack my defenseless towns
- doesn’t bother to regain its taken towns
- sends its creatures into the moat during sieges
- prefers waiting behind the walls in sieges
- casts destructive spells, killing most of its troops
- casts pointless beneficial spells while it could have dealt at least some damage
- attacks harmless war machines
- attacks the creatures it cannot kill instead of lower tiers
- retreats with huge armies if it’s slightly weaker
I’ve seen all these at Heroic in two custom maps only. *shudder*
The AI is obviously scripted to get large amounts of creatures and resources, but that is simply not enough. We need a competitive strategic AI which functions well on the adventure map.
4) The camera is absurd. I don't mean the 3D, which turned out fine. I'm speaking of hidden resources, tilting lag, transparent stalactites etc.
In the first single scenario on day 1 you have to sprain your wrist rotating the view in order to see what creature is guarding what mine.
5) The lack of the map editor and random map generator is something I can live with for the time being, as those have been promised in the upcoming updates (along with an additional set of custom maps). The editor looks promising enough...
6) Finally, I can’t wait to see the new faction in the expansion. While I would prefer the greenskins, the dwarves are more probable. Oh, well. Some new neutral creatures would be nice – very powerful (tier 6 or higher), although there are already enough dragons in the game.
P.S. Oh, have I told you I think the game is rather nice?  But that would be off topic here, right?
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Anakha
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 24, 2006 09:59 PM |
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Quote:
I think wait is a must in Heroes.
Have you tried using the 'w'-key? Or are you talking about a different kind of wait?
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Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted May 24, 2006 10:00 PM |
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Edited by Vlaad at 22:52, 24 May 2006.
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Quote:
Quote:
I think wait is a must in Heroes.
Have you tried using the 'w'-key? Or are you talking about a different kind of wait?
I'm talking about a big WAIT button on the right that's MISSING.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted May 24, 2006 10:07 PM |
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Quote:
Without question, the most disappointing is:
Lack of random maps.
I am still playing H3 today. Why? Random maps. I have started and completed some campaign scenarios in H3, but compared to random maps, it's no fun at all. Every new random map scenario is a new strategic challenge. I had hoped that Heroes V would bring the same, but in nice 3D-graphics.
Why are people still playing H3 today? For the random maps.
Why are people still playing Diablo 2 today? For the random maps.
I have not bought Heroes V yet, and I will not buy it until a random map gen is released. Period.
:-)
Best Regards
/Christian
I have to contradict you on this. My dad (yes) has been playing Heroes 3 with no stop since he came onto it from me (that would be about one year after the release, that I finally got him to see the brilliance of that game) - anyway, he's still playing, and that is not because of the random maps. The random maps never really worked for me, and I feel no need for the random map generator, because they are gonna be just that - random.
No, the key was the maps that people used hours on making with the map editor, with great and detailed storylines. These people were available online, and that's the key to unlimited playability. Therefore, I have absolutely no need for the random map generator, but the map editor is a key feature needed to ensure playability on long time scale.
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Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted May 24, 2006 10:54 PM |
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Quote:
No, the key was the maps that people used hours on making with the map editor
LOL It's more like weeks...
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okiesolidarity
Known Hero
right brain/left brain wizard
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posted May 25, 2006 03:57 AM |
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Quote:
Many, many, many games allow the PLAYER to choose the development of the character, and this still allows for enormous diversity of characters with absolutely NO degradation of quality. Indeed, it positively enhances the gameplay experience.
All I'm saying is that this is an EASY FIX. Make skill choices up to the player, improve and/or expand the skill list, and dump the garbage.
See?
I am sorry; I don't mean to be rude, but I don't think I see what you are implying.
Yes, I know many games give you full customization of the development a character, without any randomness to the skills/abilities offered. This I find very boring. Without a chaotic factor, this means that a game can be "solved" (ie after doing some simple game theory, you can determine exactly what skills become the best combination for a situation, and, unless you are foolish, you will always choose those same skills). It is true, yes, that this "best set" of skills may change from scenario to scenario, but they will remain a constant for each of these different scenarios, and do not require that much additional thought to figure out which set solves each possible scenario. That is why the heroes franchise and its predecessors have always relied on a number of randomized factors to ensure that the game plays differently each time. I feel as though this type of full customization of a skill branch is only a step away from saying that every creature should always deal constant damage (instead of a damage range, with a random number generator that determines the damage for each instance of attack). If you want to play a more solvable game, count me out, because after the math is solved, it's all just silly pwnership of youngins who don't understand the math as well. I am not suggesting that this game eradicate the need for thoughtful playing; on the contrary, I think the need to revise a strategy because of these unpredictables is a large part of what makes these games fun.
When you say that you want to leave skill choices up to the player, do you mean skills, or abilities, or skills and abilities? Which one of the previous are you suggesting for the improvement/expansion of the skill (ability?) list? What is the garbage? I'm sorry, I just find that to be incredibly vague.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the impression that you are referring predominately to the difficulty in acquiring the ultimate ability. Personally, I think this should be difficult - in most games, impossible. It should be the type of ability that is only possible to achieve in the largest maps (forgetting the campaigns...I don't really care for the heroes games as single player games, as the AI has always been lacking), Even then, I believe it should be only be a slight possibility that is a risky strategy you may choose to undertake in hopes that it pays off, understanding that there is a very good chance that you will get screwed over and not be able to get it. Risk and reward is a fundamental part of this game. If you could always get the "ultimate ability", it kinda takes a little oomph out of the whole idea of having an ultimate ability.
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Cabranth
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 25, 2006 05:47 AM |
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Hello.
To oakiesolidarity:
I don't see how I could have been any more clear. Not allowing the PLAYER to determine the development of the character is IMHO a FLAW, and, per the topic of this thread, MY "biggest dissapointment in HV" is the continuation of this method of forcing skills on a player.
I do not find freedom of choice in character development to be boring, but liberating. Especially in games where the choices are numerous and complex, i.e. skill trees, individual skill level, exclusivity, etc.
ANY game can be "solved" by any player willing to spend the time and effort to become proficient at it. I for instance still play H2 and H3 and have arguably become so proficient that the game shouldn't be interesting any more. Why? Because I like them. One flaw doesn't ruin the games for me, just dissapoints me.
As for carbon copy characters, if you have more skills than you can choose for one character, then even might OR magic types become diverse, individual, and distinct from one another. There could be, given the skill variation, three, four, five, or even more "types" of builds for a character. Balanced skills are, however, a MUST for balanced gameplay.
There is too much randomness built into the game for one change to make it boring. Ever had all your mines guarded by upgrades and missle troops at the beginning of a map? Ever had bad starting heroes in your tavern? Ever had bunk for random resources, treasure chests, and random artifacts? Ever lost more troops in a fight than you thought you would? Ever had an enemy hero show up in your face WAY early? The list is endless.
When I say that the PLAYER should be able to choose, I mean skills,ala H2 and H3, AND skills/abilities, as in HV. Clear?
As far as "ultimate ability", I'm against it personally. I like games that rise in difficulty as characters develop and grow. Leave god powers for the cheat-code users.
I just can't see the benefit of having unbalanced, innapropriate skills forced on the player. Given a numerous, balanced, diverse,well thought out skills list there simply is no NEED to go through being given navigation, or any skill the player doesn't want. The numerous games that have already achieved this proves it can be done. And it's much easier than spending a bazillion man-hours and dollars writing code for graphics which shut out many fans.
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Wiseman
Known Hero
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posted May 25, 2006 07:05 AM |
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Quote:
- turn off adventure map animations (especially the annoying trees, which not only cause the lag but also make me sea sick)
- skip the one unnecessary screen when entering a town
- buy all creatures
- see the kingdom overview
- look at the high scores
- Swaying trees make you sea sick? Maybe you should visit your GP sometimes soon.
-What screen is that?
- There is a buy all creatures button
- I miss kingdom overview too.
- Ditto.
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Truth may be out there, but lies are inside your head.
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SirDunco
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted May 25, 2006 09:57 AM |
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Now for me the most dissapointing thing was the lack of freedom. A mix of the campaingns, the lack of maps and mape generators. I must say playing the game is great, I like the gameplay as it is eventhough it has it's flaws.
The thing that I find the most dissapointing is, not enough freedom. First of all, there are only 6 singleplayer scenarios and all of those are preset. So practicaly I only get to play one for Sylvan, and the rest. That is just plain annoying.
Then the campaigns. The emphasis of the game is on the campaings, but I somehow dissagree with the unlocking system. I realy don't want to play 4 campaings in order to get to the one I realy want to play. I just hope that this will be fixed very soon, since this quite reduces the game lenght...
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Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted May 25, 2006 12:27 PM |
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Edited by Vlaad at 12:41, 25 May 2006.
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Quote:
- What screen is that?
When you double-click the town icon at the bottom of the screen, first the town is centered.
Then you get the rotating camera, which should also be optional (just like cinematic camera etc).
When you don't have enough resources for a new building, you cannot go to the marketplace directly, but have to go one screen back. Strangely, the "build structure" icon is still there (although disabled), while there is also a "buy structure" icon.
The "buy creatures" option has been included in the same screen, though.
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LordoftheIsles
Tavern Dweller
Location: Under the weather
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posted May 25, 2006 02:29 PM |
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I feel the need to show solidarity with Okiesolidarity.
Replayability is enhanced if the heroes end up with different skill sets each time. I've just finished a mission where a hero with Phantom Forces was able to replicate shooters almost every battle and kick ass. The next time, if he doesn't pick up the necessary magic skill, I'll have to think of a different way to win some battles.
Your mileage may vary though, and some of you obviously feel strongly about this. For me this is a minor quibble compared to things like:
-- no map editor
-- mission scripting with bugs that leave you with unwinnable endgames
-- computer player AI that leaves a *huge* amount to be desired
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AmberBlue
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 25, 2006 02:39 PM |
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Quote:
Why are people still playing H3 today? For the random maps.
Why are people still playing Diablo 2 today? For the random maps.
Actually we hate random maps in diablo.
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okiesolidarity
Known Hero
right brain/left brain wizard
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posted May 25, 2006 04:29 PM |
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Quote:
Hello.
To oakiesolidarity:
I don't see how I could have been any more clear. Not allowing the PLAYER to determine the development of the character is IMHO a FLAW, and, per the topic of this thread, MY "biggest dissapointment in HV" is the continuation of this method of forcing skills on a player.
Well you clarified a little right there. I didn't know that the randomness of skill assignment was something that you had seen as a flaw in the previous games, too. I had assumed that there was something specific to the way in which it was implemented in H5 that you saw as flawed. I'll take it as a mistake, and not an insult, that you are now calling me an oak as opposed to an oklahoman
Quote:
I do not find freedom of choice in character development to be boring, but liberating. Especially in games where the choices are numerous and complex, i.e. skill trees, individual skill level, exclusivity, etc.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that point.
Quote:
ANY game can be "solved" by any player willing to spend the time and effort to become proficient at it. I for instance still play H2 and H3 and have arguably become so proficient that the game shouldn't be interesting any more. Why? Because I like them. One flaw doesn't ruin the games for me, just dissapoints me.
Allow me to clarify. When I use the term "solve", I am using the game theory definition. Tic-Tac-Toe can be solved. Checkers can be solved. Chess can be solved (though even super computers can't work out the entire game tree). Any game that involves any element of randomness (eg rolling dice or the computer equivalent) cannot be solved - you can merely choose the best possible gamble, if you are an informed player.
Quote:
As for carbon copy characters, if you have more skills than you can choose for one character, then even might OR magic types become diverse, individual, and distinct from one another. There could be, given the skill variation, three, four, five, or even more "types" of builds for a character. Balanced skills are, however, a MUST for balanced gameplay.
I agree that balanced skills are crucial for balanced gameplay. My hesitation comes from the following: how do you make skills unique for each faction, yet make them ultimately resolve to be completely balanced for many different skill trees? It is tricky, yeah? I think they've done an OK (still kinda irked about being called a tree ) job balancing out the different factions in 5 so far, but when you boil down the math, there are certain disparities that make some factions overpowered. What is the simple solution? Generally in games they tweak this stuff by adding a certain amount of randomness, so that someone who has spent the time and crunched the math to figure out what sequence of skills (and in what order) yields the best results can't always have things resolve out the way they planned. Sure, I think it would be great if there were twice as many skills and abilities for each faction, and each one was very unique but perfectly balanced so that none of them offered any more of an advantage than any other, so that it was very playable to pick a variety of skill trees that all yielded the same payoff. Do you want to figure out the math for that one?
Quote:
There is too much randomness built into the game for one change to make it boring. Ever had all your mines guarded by upgrades and missle troops at the beginning of a map? Ever had bad starting heroes in your tavern? Ever had bunk for random resources, treasure chests, and random artifacts? Ever lost more troops in a fight than you thought you would? Ever had an enemy hero show up in your face WAY early? The list is endless.
all i can say is give me more chaos.
Quote:
When I say that the PLAYER should be able to choose, I mean skills,ala H2 and H3, AND skills/abilities, as in HV. Clear?
yes, now that is clear. thank you.
Quote:
As far as "ultimate ability", I'm against it personally. I like games that rise in difficulty as characters develop and grow. Leave god powers for the cheat-code users.
I would normally agree, but I don't think any of the ultimate abilities are game-winners by themselves. None of them are so spectacular as to ensure victory, especially when you compare them to those ridiculous combination artifacts from the h3 expansions.
Quote:
I just can't see the benefit of having unbalanced, innapropriate skills forced on the player. Given a numerous, balanced, diverse,well thought out skills list there simply is no NEED to go through being given navigation, or any skill the player doesn't want. The numerous games that have already achieved this proves it can be done. And it's much easier than spending a bazillion man-hours and dollars writing code for graphics which shut out many fans.
as I said before, I think we'll have to agree to disagree. Sorry if this has turned into a long, redundant argument. No hard feelings, yeah?
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Cabranth
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 25, 2006 06:17 PM |
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Hello.
To okiesolidarity: Humble apologies for the typo. I'm usually a stickler on spelling. Oaks are awesome trees, though.
1. HV skill/ability system. Still seeing how it has changed, aside from the forcing it looks better.
2. Skill/Ability Design. I've been gaming with paper, pencil, and PC for(I'd rather not think about how long), and I've heard discussions on RPG design from my friends, who are MUCH smarter about it than I am, from members of HC here, and I've got one or two ideas myself. I feel the math has already been done, it just needs to be applied.
3. Chaos. Want more? Start a game, choose RANDOM everything. Not for everyone, though.
4. Ultimate Ability. I didn't know you were talking about actual abilities in HV. I know what they are now, and they seem okay if they prove balanced.
It's obvious we're grinding gears here and I think agreeing to disagree is just fine. Argument is just another word for debate, and I remember many similar ones with my friends long ago and far away.
I have not meant any word I've said on this to be taken as slanging or an insult. As in: " you disagree because you're an idiot". Maybe the subject(s) should be in a new thread, and this one can get back to the topic. Thank you for making me think.
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Silverhawk5504
Hired Hero
The Forsaken One
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posted May 25, 2006 09:00 PM |
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What gives...?
Ok, I don't understand you people making the same point over and over again. The random map issue has long been decided. In fact, Nivel has been saying that they would release a patch later on (June I think), even before the game came out.
Why do people still need to complain...wait less then a month!
Also, I do respect this discussion regarding skills. It is very imporant that a consensus is reached and that most people are happy.
I don't think that the game developers will be changing any game designs at this point.
There is something though that the developers can change...and that is
the AI!!!
It's such an easy and necessary fix that it's rediculous why they didn't put that into the original product. They're not making a game for 5 year olds...experienced gamers find the AI laughable and sad.
This is such an integral part of the game that the campaigns become boring and meaningless if you know that your opponent is going to make stupid mistakes.
Whoever is the official Nivel contact from this forum should take the AI difficiency message to them ... because in my opinion, this stupid focus on graphics, skills, and other factions is moot when you know that no matter what the game format is like, you'll be dealing with a computer player which will win the game for you!
PS: (no offense to all of you fixated on the skill portion of the game)
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~Dima
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Cabranth
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 25, 2006 09:29 PM |
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Hello.
To Silverhawk5504: Too True. An A.I. that can't play makes this a game for multi-player only.
P.S. "Stupid Focus"? Someone has to DESIGN the systems for the games you love. Show a teeny bit of respect for the Game-Heads, maybe?
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Thanatos
Known Hero
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posted May 25, 2006 11:15 PM |
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I don't really get the whole AI point... it's pretty decent IMHO. Sure, it makes some pretty strange decisions sometimes like attacking a small stack of Imps when my Pit Lords are about to cast a meteor shower on them or erratically wandering about the adventurre map sometimes but everything considered it's a LOT better than the H4 AI which was basically about evading you as long as possible to postpone it's inevitable defeat (atleast that's what it seemed to me )
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Maleus
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 26, 2006 01:01 PM |
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Edited by Maleus at 13:01, 26 May 2006.
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My list:
1. No possibility to load from a fight, or even go to the menu.
2. Camera in the undeground passages.
3. Random choice of skills by level-up making so the gaining of the Ultimate skill is sometimes impossible.
4. Highly prescripted custom maps with predefined hero, gameplay,... I miss the "Free for all" maps.
5. No map editor in the game (I know about the later patch)
6. When you loose the mission, there is no direct load into the Load menu, but into Mission menu, which means clicking you out of it.
7. The balance of the scenarios is not challenging, but frustrating. It is not about difficulty, it is about balance and map design.
But don`t get wrong. I like the game. I love the animations of the creatures and heroes (except the ranger shooting from the horse close-up), I love the design of creatures, and the look of the towns and the feeling of the world. I love it realy... I just want to be free, to play as I wish.
I just want to be a Hero of Might and Magic.
(sorry for my English)
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This thread is pages long: 
