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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Enlightenment Overpowered?
Thread: Enlightenment Overpowered? This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT»
Incendax
Incendax

Tavern Dweller
posted July 02, 2006 11:14 PM
Edited by Incendax at 23:17, 02 Jul 2006.

Except for the hero sitting in your castle with Recruitment, Leadership offers very little and gets outclassed by Luck in almost every situation.

Worst case scenario is that Luck offers few decent abilities, but the base skill makes up for it so outstandingly that it's hardly an issue. Best case scenario is that Luck offers a few good abilities, then you're just rolling in the good-times.
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Vicheron
Vicheron


Known Hero
posted July 03, 2006 12:04 AM

Leadership is definitely worth it for Knights because of Divine Guidance, Aura of Swiftness, and Retribution. Divine Guidance basically lets your hero give up his turn to give one of your creatures an extra turn which is great for Royal Griffins and Cavaliers/Paladins. Aura of Swiftness is great for Griffins, Cavaliers, and Angels. Retribution adds 5% bonus damage per level of morale so the +3 morale from Leadership means 15% bonus damage.

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juventas
juventas


Adventuring Hero
posted July 03, 2006 12:52 AM

Quote:
Leadership is definitely worth it for Knights because of Divine Guidance, Aura of Swiftness, and Retribution.


Again, I'd like to clarify that Retribution is an ability of the Attack skill, *not* Leadership.  Regardless, Divine Guidance and especially Aura of Swiftness are pretty sweet abilities that are, IMO, better than the abilities that Luck offers.  However, Luck by itself is much better than Leadership.
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Vicheron
Vicheron


Known Hero
posted July 03, 2006 01:39 AM

Retribution is dependent upon morale and Leadership provides that morale. The +3 morale from Leadership means 15% bonus damage from Retribution. It's called synergy.

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Kingpriest
Kingpriest


Hired Hero
posted July 03, 2006 03:19 AM

I did not know the bonus from Retribution was so significant.  Thanks for the info.

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Zeldor
Zeldor


Known Hero
The Bringer of Pestilence
posted July 03, 2006 03:36 AM

Someone wanted XP needed for level up...


1 - 0
2 - 1,000
3 - 2,000
4 - 3,200
5 - 4,600
6 - 6,200
7 - 8,000
8 - 10,000
9 - 12,200
10 - 14,700
11 - 17,500
12 - 20,600
13 - 24,320
14 - 28,784
15 - 34,140
16 - 40,567
17 - 48,279
18 - 57,533
19 - 68,637
20 - 81,961
21 - 97,949
22 - 117,134
23 - 140,156
24 - 167,782
25 - 200,933
26 - 244,029
27 - 304,363
28 - 394,864
29 - 539,665
30 - 785,826
31 - 1,228,915
32 - 2,070,784
33 - 3,754,522
34 - 7,290,371
35 - 15,069,238
36 - 32,960,630
37 - 75,899,970
38 - 183,248,970
39 - 462,353,978
40 - 1,215,939,194

You can't advance beyong level 40.

h3 chart for comparison:

1 - 0
2 - 1,000
3 - 2,000
4 - 3,200
5 - 4,500
6 - 6,000
7 - 7,700
8 - 9,000
9 - 11,000
10 - 13,200
11 - 15,500
12 - 18,500
13 - 22,100
14 - 26,420
15 - 31,604

Beyond level 13, the number of experience points needed to advance to the next level is 1.2 times that needed for the current level.

20 - 78,640
25 - 195,684
30 - 486,924
35 - 1,211,622
40 - 3,014,902
100 - 169,882,235,455

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juventas
juventas


Adventuring Hero
posted July 03, 2006 04:14 AM

Quote:
Retribution is dependent upon morale and Leadership provides that morale. The +3 morale from Leadership means 15% bonus damage from Retribution. It's called synergy.


Ah yes, I get what you are going for now.  But think about this: a luck of +3 gives you about 30% chance of 100% more damage.  That's an average of 30% more damage.  Unless I'm way off base on that 30% figure (sorry, it's just what I've been hearing around here).

Unfortunately, I can't figure out a way to incorporate the extra attacks given by +3 morale since it depends so heavily on the initiative of the units.  If it was like Heroes II where morale let you act twice in a row, it would be an easier calculation.  But it would still not be easy since the initial retaliation will reduce the attack power of your second attack.
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TowerLord
TowerLord


Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted July 03, 2006 05:43 PM

enlighment is cool ... extra primary skills is really nice to have , and more experience is always nice ... also intelligence is good most of the times if you are building a magic hero ...

there is also a minus to this : if you also get logistics , you will have to few battle secondaries

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hahahaha
hahahaha

Tavern Dweller
posted July 04, 2006 08:11 AM

Enlightenment is a must for long games. If you expect to get lvl 15+, go for it the first chance.
It eats a slot since you will want logistic and luck also.
The other two slots should be magic if it can. Dark is personal favorite.

Consider even at lvl 20, you can fill only half of your skills, it matters little that enlightenment has bad secondary skills.

For short games go for spells, war machine may be more worthwhile than enlightment.
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Rune_B
Rune_B

Tavern Dweller
posted July 05, 2006 01:14 PM

It’s a very useful skill especially early in the game. I always take it the first time I have it offered and max it out quickly!  

Your hero advance faster in levels and you get the extra stats, that are VERY useful for low tier armies (which is what you get in the beginning of the game). So you can strike faster and you get the advantage on the opponent (… and maybe, in campaigns, you will never complain about the k+ of enemy armies ).

IMO is a very strong skill but it depends on your tactic if you need it or is just a ‘lost’ slot.

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ZeroXcuses
ZeroXcuses


Known Hero
posted July 15, 2006 04:20 AM

On second thought

I managed to finish a long map without it and I didn't even miss it. Faction specific skill + Offense + Sorcery + "insert magic specialty here" + another magic specialty OR Luck OR Leadership + Logistics has worked for me. Typically, I find Logistics a MUST over something like enlightenment.

I'm not saying that it is not powerful. I'm just saying that I have played a map and I didn't miss it at all.

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cantaresg
cantaresg


Known Hero
posted September 19, 2006 01:13 PM

Having enlightenment means being able to obtain other skills 1.3 times faster, and getting more stats at the same time. It sure is overpowering, though I agree its secondary skills are quite crappy most of the time.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted September 19, 2006 02:16 PM

Quote:
Having enlightenment means being able to obtain other skills 1.3 times faster, and getting more stats at the same time. It sure is overpowering, though I agree its secondary skills are quite crappy most of the time.


More like 1,15 times faster though the secondary can be more important than you think with careful planning.Especially for spellcasters.
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Map also hosted on Moddb

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted September 19, 2006 02:46 PM

Keep in mind that in order to get the 15% faster skill gain is paid off against not getting them until AFTER getting the three skill levels in Enlightenment. If you ignore the stat benefits, you spend 3 levels to get the rest after that 15% faster/sooner.

I need to check some exp charts to see after how much levels this pays off (again, I am ignoring the stat boost for the moment).

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted September 19, 2006 02:50 PM

Quote:
Keep in mind that in order to get the 15% faster skill gain is paid off against not getting them until AFTER getting the three skill levels in Enlightenment. If you ignore the stat benefits, you spend 3 levels to get the rest after that 15% faster/sooner.

I need to check some exp charts to see after how much levels this pays off (again, I am ignoring the stat boost for the moment).


Which is the reason I will get it only with a spellcaster or at very high level.I doubt you earn more than 2 lvls but the stats are yummy!
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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted September 19, 2006 03:20 PM
Edited by Maurice at 15:25, 19 Sep 2006.

On the assumption that you would get the three levels of Enlightenment at the first three levels of your hero, you would need to bridge a gap of 6200 exp (the total needed to reach level 4 and thereby expert Enlightenment - this is of course provided that the hero doesn't start with Enlightenment as a base skill; don't know right away if there is any, actually). To cover this gap with a 15% increase in experience, you'll have to be just into level 16 to cut even. Get it at higher levels, and this shifts up even more.

Note once more that this totally ignores the benefit to the hero's stats from this skill.

Looking purely from the perspective of experience (and hence skill) progression, you are losing out below level 16 and you get ahead above level 16. Furthermore, at the breakpoint, the hero with Enlightenment has 3 skillpoints in that particular skill, whereas other heroes have those points into other skills. Once again ignoring the stat boost, the breakpoint at which Enlightenment breaks even in skill gain (i.e. Hero with Enlightenment has the same amount of skill points excluding Enlightenment itself, as a hero without Enlightenment altogether) is even higher.

Edit: In short, Enlightenment is only good for its stat boosting effects, as you gain no benefit at all from the experience increase below level 16; it is actually only good when you get it very early and raise to high 20's in level.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted September 19, 2006 05:23 PM

And also, once you reach level 28, experience requirements are so enourmous that you're unlikely to ever reach a new level except through Ancients Of Sylanna or Dark Revelation, rendering the 15 % bonus pretty useless.

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bjorn190
bjorn190


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
posted September 19, 2006 07:23 PM

I think enlightenment might be worth it even if the XP bonus was removed. The XP bonus is just a nice bonus, and the 3 levels of enlightenment are not wasted slots at all, its a good skill, and one of the best ones.

If I were to start with 2 skills of choice, it might be enlightenment and logistics. That would allow really fast levelling.  Of course it depends on the town.

Generally, the best would be archer specialist, haven, attack for frenzy and archery, then luck since marksmen are heavy hitters, but enlightnemnt is best with haven.


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ggnarl
ggnarl


Hired Hero
Taxpayer
posted September 20, 2006 12:32 AM

Of course, if enlightenment artifacts are available, the paltry %15 bonus can become quite substantial (up to %45 or more, in the unlikely event you can get both), making the skill even more desirable.

btw, are these % increases multiplied or just added together? Doesn't make that much of a difference, just wondering.

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zatoichi
zatoichi


Adventuring Hero
posted September 20, 2006 12:42 AM

Quote:
enlightment pays off late.

I was going to say au contraire, because experience-wise, it is best to gain Expert Enlightenment early and ASAP, but then I noticed you wrote:
Quote:
Will you survive to lvl 20 without proper skills? I doubt you will. You need good skills and abilities fast.

Although you will get to lvl 20 faster with enlightenment, this is by far the best anti-enlightenment argument I have ever heard. Particularly so in multiplay, where possibility of early skirmishes against a human player is high. I would avoid early fight if I had to test my Expert Enlightenment against a guy with say Expert Dark Magic.
Because of a Scholar, enlightenment is of course a nice skill for a secondary hero. And what's with that Dark Revelation experience rip-off?

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