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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: I gave up on believing in God.
Thread: I gave up on believing in God. This Popular Thread is 204 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 40 80 120 160 ... 200 201 202 203 204 · NEXT»
TitaniumAlloy
TitaniumAlloy


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posted May 22, 2006 10:40 AM bonus applied.
Edited by TitaniumAlloy at 15:42, 19 May 2007.

I gave up on believing in God.

Warning: this post contains 100% my opinion on some very sensitive topics, I can understand, to some people, and I don't want to be typing IMO with every sentence. This isn't to convince anyone to change their beliefs.

Not because I've been disappointed, or overhopeful, or anything, but because I can see exactly why people believe in God, and exactly why it's not true.

I'm not just your usual athiest, I've grown up all my years having bible scripts hammered into my mind, I know all about it, and I did believe for all of my childhood and for, well, most of my life.

But now I realize that there is no heaven and hell. There is no afterlife. But I don't care, because once I'm dead, it's not like you're going to be sitting there in some eternal blackness going "Well this sucks, there is no afterlife..". You won't be thinking anything at all.
I've realized that God is just an entity created, through basic psychology, to fill up the 'holes', or mysteries in life, even those which have been proved by science.

Occams razor states that, with all sides equal, the simplest explanation tends to be the right one, obviously preferring the nonexistance of God, as evolution via natural selection and metaphysical laws make more sense than an all powerful being who wished everything into existence, and controls everything, with no proof of existence.
There is an explanation and proof for everything that happens in our universe, whether it be apparent yet or beyond our limited reach of technology.



However, I am not against religion. I agree with alot of the modern principles implied by the bible and christianity, and some of other religions, which I believe can make the world a better place.

What I don't believe in, is the abstract ancient stories and literal interpretations of scriptures, like Adam, and Eve created from his rib.



Some people say that technology destroys faith. I think that technology reveals it in it's true form; delusion. Studies of biology obviously brought about the evolution theory.

When Darwin came up with the Theory of Evolution, he was shunned for it's implications of untruth in the Creation story, but now it is widely accepted, especially in terms of microbiology of viruses and bacterium, like the evolution of bacteria to survive Penecillin.



Physics and Astronomy about the existance of the universe, like how the Church taught that the Earth centred the Universe, and Galileo thought that was all a bit egotistical, and that gravity actually caused our solar system to revolve around the Sun, which is now taken for granted. He was, of course, locked up in house arrest for the rest of his life for thinking of this.
Chemistry also explains alot of what happens in our biosphere and outside, the building blocks of our very existence.


Some Christians might say that this isn't what Christianity is about now, those are all just the Old Testament ideas. But it is Christianity, it is the very foundation, and excuses have been made to redeem the religion, but more and more of it's stories are being proved false.




Perhaps there is one thing that cannot be explained, and possibly never will be proved, is not the existence of life, but the existence of matter itself. Why is there a universe? I guess it was thoughts like this which gave way to religion, answerless questions were given answers to make us, and everything around us feel slightly less meaningless.


It would have started when the human race was young, and ignorant, and these mystic thoughts of gods, polytheism and eventually monotheism which makes up most of the believing world, really as scapegoats for wonders that did not have currently proveable meanings.
This still generally applies today. If something cannot be proved, it's a god, because gods need no proof. Until, technology advances and finds proof and meaning, until the gods have less and less power in the minds of those who believe in them.

Gods used to be all-powerful, and completely in control, but if you've ever watched the news, or even looked outside your window, you can tell that if there is a God out there, he must be either really bad at his job, or simply turning the other way.






EDIT:
my essay from later on.
makes alot more sense than ^^^^^


Quote:

WHY DO PEOPLE BELIEVE IN GOD?
Religion is hammered into our every day lives with an iron fist, ingrained into our brains from birth to the point that to question it is to accuse the majority of the world’s population of mass delusion, and is not only an insult, but is almost unfashionable. It is like a cage, which we are born into. Our cages may vary in size and comfort, but we are born into cages nonetheless. Children at the age of four can be said to be Christian or Muslim, to decide on theological and cosmological theories and beliefs that compose our entire lifestyle, when they are not even old enough to decide what to eat and when to sleep. I believe that freedom is to break out of this cage, and to realize the truth. The stubborn attitude of believers is the biggest dilemma faced by atheists, and the cunning invention of the human imagination means that the fallacy of god was not finished millennia ago when Christianity was founded, or when religion was founded, but is continually added to and multiplied to keep it alive in a world which has no place for a life changing lie.
As George Carlin said in irony;
“Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man - living in the sky - who watches everything you do, every minute of the day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time... But He loves you!"
From the perspective of the atheist, however, the question that must be asked is, “Why do people believe in god?”
There is no god. From outside this cage, not only does the idea of god seem detrimental, but also seems foolish and irrational. There is no proof in favour of god, and the proof against his existence is immeasurable.

The proof is immeasurable because everything around us can be used to disprove religion, yet our limited technologies can only record and measure a minuscule amount.
Our belief in an omnipotent and mysterious god can be attributed to its very counter-argument; evolution. It is a survival trait to believe in a common god, to work together for one cause without betrayal. In our evolution history, whenever an unexplainable phenomenon was encountered, however, it could be attributed to this ‘god’. Humans need something to believe in, to fight for, to keep us going, it’s in our nature. And god was the best candidate at the time. Why god is there makes perfect sense, but not why we still cling to him, like a child to Santa Claus.
Now we are in a new age of technology, which allows us to research these phenomena and find reason behind them, hence proof against god.
But the believers stubbornly reject this proof in order to maintain their faith, because it’s a survival trait that is as hard to give up as sex, as eating, to fight faith for some is like fighting appetite or lust. There are any number of reasonable explanations behind religion and its associated behaviors, but none of them include an all-powerful god.

Yet there is still no substantial proof of god, in any form. This is, to the atheist, obviously because you cannot prove the existence of an imagined idea, and to prove the existence of that which does not exist is a contradiction in itself. So lack of proof doesn’t completely disprove god, but it makes his existence a lot less likely.
On top of this, it is also theoretically and scientifically impossible for us to go to heaven. Our bodies run on electric impulses in our nervous system that makes us function. This is what makes up our thoughts, our memories, and our mind; this is what can be construed to be the soul, so this must be what supposedly god sends to heaven when we die. But when we die, these thoughts and memories merely fade away, like pulling the plug on a power source. This is called Information Theoretical Death, or total death; people can be revived from this state, but there is no point because this person will not remember who they are, will have no prior personality, and may die from shock or inability to live in an adult world. This shows that our memories simply dissipate as our bodies die, and there is no evidence in the known world which even hints at the possibility of such energy transcending into a higher place. In fact there is even the law of the conservation of energy which denies this possibility, ergo, heaven cannot exist.
Conversely, religious leaders even change religious stories that have been disproved to fit in with the newest scientific discoveries. This alone should be enough proof that god is just a fallacy, but people rely on the word of these leaders more than they know.
An example of this is in Thomas Aquinas’s list of proof of god. As Carl Sagan said;
“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.”
One of the ‘proofs’ is that; “Nothing moves without a prior mover”. As things are moving today, this proves that there must have been a creator originally to set things into motion. This idea would have been unnecessary centuries ago, when we didn’t have proof against the bible stories of god, but now this is clung to by creationists as their strongest weapon. When the Big Bang theory was coined, it was at first flatly rejected as blasphemy. The story of Darwin’s Theory of Evolution is also similar, but now religious theories such as Thomas Aquinas’s ‘proofs’, claim that god was simply there to set everything into motion, to wind the clockwork. Soon enough, if all scientific discoveries are incorporated into religious texts, then the whole idea of religion will scatter and disprove god altogether.
The scientific proof against god has done this to most of the Bible stories and miracles which are now considered impossible, but now the believer will say that these stories are mere metaphors and are not to be taken literally, as they were for many centuries. We can now explain why our world turned out the way it is, but not yet why exactly it is here. That leaves the atheist with the dilemma of the beginning, as Thomas Aquinas points out, and is the biggest argument of the creationists.

The creationists will argue that world being perfect for supporting life, and that countless species of life are present today, is so inconceivably improbable that it is in fact impossible for there to be any cause other than a divine creator.
A suitable metaphor for this was made by Fred Hoyle, being the image of a Boeing 747 aircraft in a scrap yard. The metaphor is that if a hurricane passed through a scrap metal yard, the chance of it assembling perfectly into a Boeing 747 is so unlikely that it is almost impossible. However, this argument comes as a double edged sword, as was said by Richard Dawkins, a creator god would be, to paraphrase Hoyle’s metaphor, the ‘Ultimate 747’, and even more unlikely to be created than a regular airplane. So while we are unlikely to be here without a creator, a creator is even more unlikely to be here without a creator, which just postpones the problem. The creator is the least probable option, as can be summed up with Occam’s razor.
Occam’s razor is often paraphrased to state that "All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best one." The fact that an intangible, almighty, mysterious being of which there is no substantial evidence creating the world is a lot less simple than the theories which explain it today, and that the very idea of god should be, in economic principle, cut away, and the nonexistence of god preferred.
The reason we are here after all, can be explained through the aforementioned theories of evolution. But evolution could not have taken place without the right conditions on earth. This is referred to as the ‘Goldilocks’ effect, where our situation is ‘just right’ for supporting human life. This has been a damaging blow to the atheist argument. The characteristics of the creation of the universe were finely tuned to perfection for human life. These characteristics are listed in Martin Ree’s ‘Just Six Numbers’, but perhaps the most important number is the magnitude of the ‘strong’ forces in the beginning of the universe. The arbitrary number of this strong force in our universe is 0.007. If, at the beginning of the universe, this has been slightly smaller, around 0.006, all the hydrogen atoms present at the beginning would not have bonded, and no chemistry would result to create anything larger in the universe. If it was larger, around 0.008, all the hydrogen would have fused and life could not evolve. Other things, such as the acceleration of the creation of the universe, were just right. The speed at which the universe expanded was on the brink of going so fast that no matter grouped together and was all spread out across the universe in an atomic ‘soup’, or that it was too slow so that the gravity of the universe was so great that it turned the tide of creation and all the atoms collapsed back in on each other in a ‘big crunch’. How is it possible that these numbers are so ideal?
The believer will claim that again, it was god who chose these settings when he created the universe. However, a god who was capable of this must be at least as unlikely as the settings themselves, and so is perhaps even more unlikely, which doesn’t solve the problem at all.
The answer is the anthropic principle.
There are theories that our universe is one of a multitude, like bubbles in foam; each universe is adjacent to one another, yet completely separate. Our universe has been determined to be finite in it’s lifespan, so these ‘bubbles’ in the multiverse could be said to be created and destroyed in an infinite cycle. If each of these universes have different and random settings, it is likely that one of them will be suitable for human life, and we are in it because it is the only one we can be in. This answers the question of the improbability of our existence, and allows for the dismissal of a false creator. This is like, instead of one hurricane passing through one scrap yard, there are in fact thousands, millions or even infinite hurricanes, and infinite scrap yards, so at least one of them must assemble into a plane.
Despite this, many people are still happy with the idea of this god, and how he created the world, and accept this idea. The claim is that the world is far too beautiful to be created by chance, and that it must have been the product of ‘intelligent design’.
This was even agreed upon by Albert Einstein, in saying;
“God does not play dice.”
This question, however, is much more easily answered. Life is not perfect. In fact, upon close inspection, if it were the product of intelligent design, it was a very bad designer. If the architect is in fact omnipotent, then he could not possibly have made the life on earth, otherwise it would be perfect.  
In fact, an all powerful god could have made the universe however he wanted, so why didn’t he make it ideal? Why are there suffering, pain and evil in the world, if there is a god who loves us, and who could put an end to it?
The god that the theists believe in, who is theory responsible for this world, is therefore not only false but immoral.

If god exists, he is so obviously immoral and malicious, and without proof of his very existence, believers cannot possibly be expected to follow such a ridiculous order. Especially since the teachings of religion aim at good morals, then a god of these religions cannot possibly exist. Many times throughout the bible god had supposedly spoken to chosen prophets throughout the world, often commanding them to perform acts for him. These people are expected to carry out these acts as a show of faith on their behalf. But with no evidence, how can they be sure that it is not satan attempting to trick them? The followers therefore meet a paradox; to not do as god says would be to blaspheme against his command, but to do as he says could be to perform for the devil, which would be blasphemy. It seems either way believers are damned, which is a flaw in the religious dogma.
An example of this is in the book of Genesis, when god commands Joseph to sacrifice his son Isaac in the name of the lord. Is this not infanticide, one of the most heinous crimes of today? Would not someone today who killed their son in the name of the lord be locked up for murder? Although this was in the end a test of faith for Joseph, it could have been a test to see if Joseph would break the 10 commandments so easily, in which case he would have failed.
As Richard Dawkins said,
"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."

This brings the doctrine of religion to another dilemma; are deeds good because god says they are, or does god say things because they are good? If it is good because god says it is, then by definition god is immoral, as god could command someone to commit infanticide, rape or murder, and to say that is right would be preposterous; a god who commands this should be shunned, not worshipped. On the other hand, if god says it because it is good, then god is not necessary to study the good, and therefore god should be removed altogether.
This solidifies further the notion that religion is in fact ludicrous.
Woody Allen sums this up with his wit in saying;
“If it turns out that there is a God, I don't think that he's evil. But the worst that you can say about him is that basically he's an underachiever.”
Another example of this is sin. Sin is attributed to many things which are natural traits that we are ‘programmed’, through evolution, to do. Lust is classed as a sin, rather than the evolutionary train to reproduce. Gluttony is a sin, rather than the evolutionary need to feed. Without sin, we would not have survived as a race, and yet it is the one thing that god is most against. The bible says that by being human, by simply being born, we inherit the sins of our fathers in the crucifixion of Christ. Does this mean that god is opposed to us? If we were made into sinners through the ways of our universe, and if god created the universe, then god made us sinners. If god merely created the universe in the beginning, then he would, being supreme, have made it exactly how he wanted, and would also, being all knowing, know exactly what would happen in result, even with free will. In other words; if god created the universe, he caused us to do every single one of our actions, in one way or another, and so we go to hell by his hand. This, by the bible itself, proves that god is flawed again in his creations, and therefore disproves his existence, and would be ridiculous to believe in such a god.
In fact, if in today’s age, a man stated to the world that he was the son of a celestial creator of the universe and that everyone should listen to him, or else they will all burn for eternity, he would be ridiculed, just as Jesus was in the New Testament. With no substantiation and such a huge claim, he would be dismissed as a madman.
We have, nevertheless evolved to believe in a god, in one form or another, and this leads us to inquire as to whether it is in fact beneficial to believe.

It cannot be denied that religion has helped our society to evolve as fruitfully as it has, only the extent to which it has shaped is questioned, and whether it has been for better or for worse.
Ever since the first polytheistic religions were imagined, religion has helped to bring structure to our society. People go to church, they give to charity, and they do good deeds, however small, in the name of the lord. All of these things help to better society. It gives fellow believers a brotherhood, to which they feel loyal.
The bible also brings morals to society. People may begin to think, ‘if there is no god, why be good?’ One argument against atheism is that if it were more widespread than Christianity or any other religion, the civilized world would descend into anarchy. This is of course an excessive embellishment, but it has some hints of truth.
However it is also noted that religion can be injurious to society.
A million dollar experiment was conducted on this matter, and recorded in the American Heart Journal. This experiment entailed 1,802 patients in need of coronary bypass surgery in six different hospitals in America to be prayed for differently. They were split into three groups randomly; the first group was prayed for, without them knowing. The second group was not prayed for, without them knowing. The third group was prayed for, and they were told so.
The results were unexpected. Predictably, there was little difference between groups one and two. However, there was a significant difference between group 3 and the others; the patients in group 3 were on average worse off.
This could be taken to mean that prayers actually harm society more than help it. If people believe that a false god will save them from their troubles, they may stop trying to solve them themselves, which may lead to the breakdown of society on a small scale. The patients in group 3 obviously were affected mentally by the experiment, and were lead into a false sense of security. Is god smiting these people for blaspheming, or is this proof against god? Common sense would have to say that a loving god would not harm these innocent patients, and so leans towards the other option.
As stated formerly, god is attributed to that which we cannot prove with science. To attempt to prove these phenomena is blasphemy and used to be a crime, and in some places such as Pakistan it still is, as said by Thomas Jefferson;
"The priests of the different religious sects... dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight, and scowl on the fatal harbinger announcing the subdivision of the duperies on which they live."
This has a negative effect on civilization. If Thomas Edison attributed electricity to god, would we have lights and computers now?
Or is it as Victor Hugo stated;
"There is in every village a torch - the teacher: and an extinguisher - the clergyman."

Science is like fire to religion, because it can potentially disprove it is in effect its destruction. That is why the Italian church, the extinguisher, put Galileo under house arrest when he proposed that Earth is not in fact the centre of the solar system and the universe, but in fact revolves around then sun. This hints at the fallacy of god, and is against everything the theist lives for, and so they shun technology and science as proof against god himself.
Religion can also be blamed for many disasters and awful occurrences in human history. Religion is a powerful topic, and a very personal belief. As mentioned earlier, it is impolite to question someone’s beliefs, and can lead to serious arguments and religious fights. It was this which sparked many of the greatest wars of mankind, attributing numerous atrocities to the roots of religion.
Still, in some countries today, you can receive the death penalty on religious grounds. This involves taking a human life in the name of a false deity, which is disastrous to the unbeliever. Depending on the local government, religion is the grounds for countless breaches of human rights, such as sex and race discrimination, as well as homophobia. As taken from Leviticus 18:22, homosexuality is an abomination, and for this reason homosexuality is illegal in some countries today, homosexual marriage is still debated and private homosexuality was illegal in Britain until 1967.
If religion causes so much distress, bloodshed, hatred, violence and fear, all without any proof of worth, no one can righteously say that it is worth it.

Despite the fact that there is no proof of god, and monumental evidence against it, 84% of the world’s population believes in a god in one form or another. Is it really possible that they are all wrong? People believe in god originally because we evolved to believe, just as we evolved to eat and sleep. But god in a religious sense is a foolish and immoral belief from an external perspective, however, and to believe is to harm society as a whole; if only it were possible to gain the benefits of religion without the disadvantages which weigh down the whole notion to an irrational level.
For this reason believing in god is unwise not only in the sense that it is dedicating your life to the cause of mass delusion, but also that you are wasting your life in worship of an unworthy ideal.
Either way, it being possible that there is only one god, it is possible that we only have the one short life. Therefore must decide wisely on how to use it and in doing so we can be said to gamble on god.
No one can completely and entirely prove god to be true or false, so if you don’t believe the best case scenario is one short life, if god doesn’t exist, and the worst case is if god does exist, and you are destined to an eternity of pain and suffering. On the other hand, if you do believe, the worst case scenario is if god doesn’t exist, and you live one short life with the disadvantages that come with religion and worship, and the best case is if god does exist, and you have the gift of eternal life.

Whether or not you believe in god, it’s your choice.




____________
John says to live above hell.

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NavonDuSandau
NavonDuSandau


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of Black Sheep Tavern
posted May 22, 2006 10:44 AM

Nietzsche:

"Where has God gone?"

"I shall tell you. We have killed him - you and I."
____________

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Lord_Pc
Lord_Pc


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posted May 22, 2006 11:01 AM

TA, i can understand your point of view. thankfully i listened in church this weekend (1 time out of 52 aint bad) and father explained this point of view.

he said that when God created man he gave man 2 things. intellect and free will. you watch the news. 50% is "this guy died today" or "a bomb exploded today killing 4 or so people" and the like. god doesnt interfere and just pop down and say "woah hold it. were you going to shoot this guy? yes you were dont deny it. im god. now get outta here before i decide the world doesnt need you". god doesnt do that because then we wont have free will. god doesnt make bad things happen, humans do. you cant blame god for a car crash. he didnt invent the auto mobile

and on adam and eve. (looks like you watched simpsons yesterday ). i personally dont believe that god made eve from a rib. every religion as thier beliefs on how we came about, adam and eve are just how it is explained in one way
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Aculias
Aculias


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posted May 22, 2006 11:05 AM

The people who do believe in god despises Charles Darwin theory of Evolution.
I said it once & I will say it again,It seems the Bible COntradicts alot & after all Humans wrote it.
Who knows tho.
I felt evil presence in my time but never have I felt God or Jesus.
I just dont know whats true or not.
They say you just have to believe or you go to hell.
That sounds a bit harsh to me.

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TitaniumAlloy
TitaniumAlloy


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posted May 22, 2006 11:15 AM
Edited by TitaniumAlloy at 11:22, 22 May 2006.

Quote:

Lord PC:

he said that when God created man he gave man 2 things. intellect and free will. you watch the news. 50% is "this guy died today" or "a bomb exploded today killing 4 or so people" and the like. god doesnt interfere and just pop down and say "woah hold it. were you going to shoot this guy? yes you were dont deny it. im god. now get outta here before i decide the world doesnt need you". god doesnt do that because then we wont have free will. god doesnt make bad things happen, humans do. you cant blame god for a car crash. he didnt invent the auto mobile



Lord PC, I was talking about the older Christianity, before more technology came out, and, well, made him "smaller". Back then, God was said to be able to do these things, when hew as vengeful and could strike you down with lightning for your wrong doings, or bring about great storms to kill the guilty, not the innocent.

What about natural disasters? These are not man-made, and they are said to be the work of god. What did the people of Banda Aceh do to deserve their whole lives destroyed? Surely god did not wish this.
I guess, he does work in mysterious ways.

Myserious? No proof or reason. My point.
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Aculias
Aculias


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Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
posted May 22, 2006 11:20 AM

We need air to breath, We need water to survive.
We need the sun for heat, & we need the moon for gravitational support.
All these we need & mother nature sometimes takes it's course.

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TitaniumAlloy
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posted May 22, 2006 11:22 AM

Quote:

Aculias:

The people who do believe in god despises Charles Darwin theory of Evolution.
I said it once & I will say it again,It seems the Bible COntradicts alot & after all Humans wrote it.
Who knows tho.
I felt evil presence in my time but never have I felt God or Jesus.
I just dont know whats true or not.
They say you just have to believe or you go to hell.
That sounds a bit harsh to me.


You have to believe to go to heaven, yes, but you also have to be righteous, and repent your sins, even those which you did not directly commit, because sins are passed down simply for being human. But that's fine, you can repent and beg for absolution, but then you're sinning as you do so.
Being gay is a sin, not just a psychological mindset, a mutation of the need for reproduction.
Lust is a sin, not just a genetic evolutionary trait which enabled the survival of the human race, and life itself.
Greed is a sin, so you can't just believe so that you have eternal life.

What you said about the evil presence was exactly right. Everyone will blame god for when something bad happens. We need a scapegoat. But only the deeply religious will blame a success, achievement or a benefactor on god.
____________
John says to live above hell.

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Aculias
Aculias


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Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
posted May 22, 2006 11:27 AM

Trust me the thangs I seen & felt was real & it would scare you if you witnessed what I have.
Everyone sins, it's being human.
Theres so many people who like the same sex.
What half the population is going to hell because they like even bisexually the same sex, thats crazy.

I guess we all have problems of fear.
I cant sleep by myself in the dark orless someones with me like my GF's I had .
Too much has happened before.


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Lord_Pc
Lord_Pc


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posted May 22, 2006 11:34 AM

jesus once said "happy are those that dont see but still believe"
____________
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted May 22, 2006 11:43 AM
Edited by TitaniumAlloy at 11:44, 22 May 2006.

@PC, blind faith, I think you refer to. Believing, without seeing proof, or reason... Isn't that the definition of being foolish? Gullibility?



Ezekiel once said: "The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."

Where is god to strike down the guilty?
Where is god to protect the innocent?
There is no justice in religion. Only delusions of science guided by basic human psychology which has been built into our genes by the sinful idea of evolution.






@Aculias:
Half the world would be an understatement, if the rules are followed. Don't most religions state that people who don't follow the said religion will go to hell in one way or another? It doesn't matter if it's not most, if theres at least two, it means that everyone is going to hell.

That wouldn't be exactly god's plan, would it.

The idea of Heaven and Hell are fuedelistic medieval theories of contested territory between Satan and God, fighting over Earth for the souls of it's people. Do you really believe this? These are HOMM monsters, not the omnipotent rulers of the universe!
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Lord_Pc
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posted May 22, 2006 11:51 AM

blind faith??? i think that the definition of faith explains it enough

if you are not part of our religion you are going to hell. there are at least 2 of these religions so everyone is going to hell

have you not seen the thread about some kid where he included the above paragraph (or something similar) in an essay he wrote?
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted May 22, 2006 12:01 PM
Edited by TitaniumAlloy at 12:03, 22 May 2006.

Yeah wasn't it like a joke email or something about an essay?

But it's true, points out the ridiculousness of the idea of hell being real.


People might think, but their religion is wrong mine is the only right one. Who's to say? Do you have proof? If you had grown up in different circumstances, would you be saying the same thing from the opposite side?
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Lord_Pc
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posted May 22, 2006 12:07 PM

there are other Gods. in the bible there is a verse where God says

"do not worship other gods for i am the true god" or something like that. clearly there are Gods not just a God
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted May 22, 2006 12:13 PM

Hmm.. I thought he said "do not worship false idols, for I am the only true God"?
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Lord_Pc
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posted May 22, 2006 12:20 PM

yea he said that. but God also said this a few times

here is the passage
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Xarfax111
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posted May 22, 2006 12:48 PM bonus applied.

@TA, to take away peeps believe is the worst thing to do. They believe, they think they will live again if they go to church and pray. I think their strong believe to give them a good feeling through their live.

So people that do have a strong believe should just stop reading this thread. If you see that there is no God and there is no afterlife will just destroy some of your life quality.

Death.

Your Death.

Thats the biggest threat in life. So what do Mothers or Fathers say when their childrens ask "if they will die". So religions are just "made up stories to keep away the fear of death". Additional to this some people found out that they can CONTROL other people with religion. They can control their sex life or even make people kill each other (even if this religion says: YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO KILL).

The problem the religions do have is that they are very old. Means the fairy tales told in there cant keep up with the newer knowledge. To say it clear: Most of the things are PURE NONSENSE. So what the owner of religions do now is to say: This was meant more like a Metapher. Or "you dont need a proof just believe". So those things are implemented deeply into their brains, so discussing with a "strong believer" would leed to nothing (which is a good thing for them cause it makes their life easier).

Even Pope Johannes Paul went to Isreal and Turkey to search for the roots of his religion. He was aware that his life will end soon, and maybe he thought he will get a proof to his believe. Maybe he even expected that God would speak to him. I hope for him that he didnt lose his faith at the end. Also dying is easier if you belief. (knowing to be reborn or being in Heaven with all the other holy dudes).

What would be the world if all peeps dont believe in afterlife? Means all peeps wouldnt believe in god? Would they really go to a war and risk their one and only life? Would that mean that there wouldnt be any wars? Would they think that having hot sex with a stranger isnt a bad thing that brings you to hell? Would there be more happy free sexual lifes or reverse? Would there be less minorities? Would there be less reasons given for politicians to say that we have to hate and kill each other? Would more people change their lifes if they are unhappy with it? Would less people think that work is their meaning of life? Would less people think that the current system that controles all mankind of this planet is the only one?


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Guitarguy
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posted May 22, 2006 01:09 PM

I am saddened to hear about your personal revelation, TA. I confess that I don't really know how to respond in this case, but I know that it's not my place to argue at length and/or attempt to "win you over" through mere words and persuasive tactics. More importantly, however, I hope you'll continue to pursue a life of righteousness, even though you don't believe God exists. And remember that there is hope for the world, no matter how dark the times may seem.

Peace be with you.

-Guitarguy
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SirDunco
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posted May 22, 2006 01:20 PM bonus applied.

The question of God is an intriguing one. What TA here is talking about is the Teistic concept of God, or a God power.
That means that the God, or Gods, who created this and other worlds are actively present in it, play a role through miracles, event, catastrophes ect. ect.
This concept has for long been percieved as the true one. And still mosty is. From prayers, to beliefs in miracles, to sacrifaces, there still is a huge amount of people who still belive in this theory. It is simple easy to understand and belive, so why not.

The Cathloic church, along with some of the "weirder" protestant churches, still persue this belief. To try to make people belive that God, or Gods, can change their very life, by praying, going to church is an excelent way to control them. The Bible was used like this for a long time. The church authorities made it a simple book of one meaning, wheather it was the Old Testament or the New Testament. The Church created teh figure of the Old bearded man who watches over this earth and punishes the bad, helps the needy and good...

The Teistic theory has been a part of Philopsphy for some time now. You could go way back to the Panteist of Anciet Greece or to George Berkley's solipsism, or Immanuel Kant. You can read through them, or many other philosophers to get an overview on this.  But the desicion is yours.

By rejecting the Teistic belief of God, we all make , in my Humble oppinion, a big step in glimpsing more of the truth.

But just as one can reject Teism for it's blinding belief in God and his or hers allpowerfull self, on can just as easily reject Atheism, for it's belief in random events, without any meaning  
At the start of the Bible, in the book of Genesis we read about the creaton of the world... God created it. A fine prospect if you do not want to go deeper. Who exactly is this God? How did he create Earth? Why for what purpose? These and many more are just from the many questions that popup.
And so will they when you reject this theory, and head to the other extreme of the Big Bang. A universe of inimaginable width,supposedly, created from one small point of absolute density. All the matter, you, me this PC, just everything is a random cluster of Atoms created in the evolution of Billions of years.

Now I could, and probably sometimes will, go on and on. I'd just like to make point.
The truth of this world will never be truly understood by anyone who walks this earth. But that doesn't mean that you shuold stop at a level of absolute acceptance or rejection. But if it gives you peace go ahead.
A simple and stupid human will never know the anser to why? what for? how long? or any of the answers. It is up to everyone to make up their mind and not to rely on what some instituion or organization tells them.

We all could be realy living in world a gods playhouse, or to be just a mix of atoms formed into organs, and living organizms. We just as well could be living in a book, or someones fantasy or even each one of us could be God. But try as hard as we might, we will never know....
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted May 22, 2006 02:46 PM

Quote:

Xarfax:

So people that do have a strong believe should just stop reading this thread. If you see that there is no God and there is no afterlife will just destroy some of your life quality.


That may be true, but what if you can think of it this way... is your life better if you spend it doing things you're told this life, just because you think you can achieve happiness the next life? Happiness, in the next life. Heaven. By happiness, could they mean, freedom? Freedom to do whatever you want? Why not have that in this life, if I don't believe it to be true for the next? It's a choice, this life or the next, but I believe that if you choose the next you're getting robbed.

Quote:

Xarfax:

What would be the world if all peeps dont believe in afterlife? Means all peeps wouldnt believe in god? Would they really go to a war and risk their one and only life? Would that mean that there wouldnt be any wars? Would they think that having hot sex with a stranger isnt a bad thing that brings you to hell? Would there be more happy free sexual lifes or reverse? Would there be less minorities? Would there be less reasons given for politicians to say that we have to hate and kill each other? Would more people change their lifes if they are unhappy with it? Would less people think that work is their meaning of life? Would less people think that the current system that controles all mankind of this planet is the only one?


Sounds like the world would be a better place without religion, no? Maybe. Or maybe the goodness that religion teaches would be snatched away, and only missed when it's gone. Who knows... we'll never know what it's like to live in a world without it.

Quote:

Xarfax:

Even Pope Johannes Paul went to Isreal and Turkey to search for the roots of his religion. He was aware that his life will end soon, and maybe he thought he will get a proof to his believe. Maybe he even expected that God would speak to him. I hope for him that he didnt lose his faith at the end. Also dying is easier if you belief. (knowing to be reborn or being in Heaven with all the other holy dudes).


Really? I didn't know this. I thought that the belief was that "proof denies faith"... So finding proof to his belief would negate his teachings. Faith is an interesting word, though, as PC said. I think it's synonymous to gullibility or foolishness, taking things as are said to be true without seeing any proof or reason.




Quote:

Guitar Guy:

I am saddened to hear about your personal revelation, TA. I confess that I don't really know how to respond in this case, but I know that it's not my place to argue at length and/or attempt to "win you over" through mere words and persuasive tactics. More importantly, however, I hope you'll continue to pursue a life of righteousness, even though you don't believe God exists. And remember that there is hope for the world, no matter how dark the times may seem.

Peace be with you.


Thanks Guitar Guy, but as I was saying I don't dislike religion, for some of it anyway. I do believe in the righteousness aspect of religion, and I think that may be a way in which religion betters the world.




Quote:

Sir Dunco:

At the start of the Bible, in the book of Genesis we read about the creaton of the world... God created it. A fine prospect if you do not want to go deeper. Who exactly is this God? How did he create Earth? Why for what purpose? These and many more are just from the many questions that popup.


An interesting idea. So people say God created the universe to avoid discovering the real answer, of why the universe is here. But then that poses 1000 more questions, like you said. Instead of "Why are we here?" it becomes "Why is God here?", and "If God created us, who created God?", "If God was there since the beginning of time, why did he wait so long to create us? Nearly forever?"

Quote:

Sir Dunco:

Now I could, and probably sometimes will, go on and on. I'd just like to make point.
The truth of this world will never be truly understood by anyone who walks this earth. But that doesn't mean that you shuold stop at a level of absolute acceptance or rejection. But if it gives you peace go ahead.
A simple and stupid human will never know the anser to why? what for? how long? or any of the answers. It is up to everyone to make up their mind and not to rely on what some instituion or organization tells them.


Too true. Quest for knowledge is another trait built into us, and it will never be quenched as long as we live, so maybe it is easier to live accepting that it was God who created and did everything unexplainable, maybe then we can rest. But I can't do that.
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Dragon_Slayer
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posted May 22, 2006 02:54 PM

I am religious and i do believe in God, but not as strongly as i should.

I never go to church, unless its some occasion like a baptism or something, i don't pray, i don't read the bible. To be perfectly honest with you religion doesn't affect my day to day life much, if not at all. If someone pisses me off and i want to punch them, i don't sit there and think if its the right thing to do, i just do it. The only reason i wouldn't is if i get in trouble by someone else such as a teacher, not because God will get mad.

It would seem as though the young generation of these days don't really have time for religion in such a fast paced world. Once you hit the early teens and your parents stop making decisions for you most would begin steering away from a religious path. Its inevitable, you cant avoid it. Going to school or work you have a lot of influences around you, good and bad, but not many of them religious.

I was raised a christian, and it annoys me when my parents think it has to rule my life. One day i got suspended at school for hitting some annoying fool square in the face. My mum said to me "I didnt raise you to do that, didnt you learn anything when you used to go to mass?" Quiet frankly i dont care, i thought i made the right choice at the time.

Although i dont care much for religion, im not about to go athiest and probably never will, but trust me if i had a choice of sleeping in with a hangover sunday morning or going to church, i know what i would choose...
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