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TitaniumAlloy
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posted June 10, 2006 09:41 AM |
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That's fair enough GG, and I respect your beliefs, but I think that the phrase you referred to as 'cliche' "The Lord works in mysterious ways" is a good way to point out my beliefs on Christianity.
I just think that when something related to God is inexplicable, because it doesn't make sense, and we can't think of a reason why a beneficient God would do this or that, then it's all fair enough to say that he 'works in mysterious ways' that we can't understand. It's not that we can't understand, it's that we don't understand right now, and anything that we don't understand is in our nature to be attributed to God, even if it doesn't make sense that he would do that. When it doesn't make sense, someone will say something, be it anyone in the Bible or any priest in a church, say something to excuse it.
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John says to live above hell.
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dread_knight
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Converting Vegetarians
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posted June 10, 2006 06:57 PM |
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Quote:
I just think that when something related to God is inexplicable, because it doesn't make sense, and we can't think of a reason why a beneficient God would do this or that, then it's all fair enough to say that he 'works in mysterious ways' that we can't understand. It's not that we can't understand, it's that we don't understand right now, and anything that we don't understand is in our nature to be attributed to God, even if it doesn't make sense that he would do that. When it doesn't make sense, someone will say something, be it anyone in the Bible or any priest in a church, say something to excuse it.
I don't want to say my opinion on religions as a whole, since it might be offensive to some, although I already stated the main points by virtue of which I see religion.
I just wanted to relate to the bolded statement, I tend to agree with it but I have to elaborate on it.
It's not that we don't understand it right now, it's that the human mind is not capable of comprehending god and his greatness, the own god the humans created can't comprehend what have they created. They made a religion but they themsleves don't understand it, but religion aside, they even attribute to god questions about god himself and the answer is simple "god wanted it that way" how da hell do you know? are you god? are you a messenger of some sort? Are the ministers int he churches really closer to god than any other beliver? Is the pope the messenger of god? Does god reveal himself to him? No. That's all just a game of power. I don't see, at least in that point, the god in judaism and christianity and islam which is the same god, I just don't see how come he's all different in all thos religions, the only explanations that the religious officials use god for their own agenda to achieve their own interests. This is why I don't believe in a concept of god within a religion, god is not supposed to be that way if there is a god.
One more interesting thing, how can the father, the son and the holy spirit be one god altogether? Is christianity a polytheist religion?
I understand how the holy spirit and god can be one, but how on earth can a son and a father be the same person?
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frostwolf
Famous Hero
livin' in a bottle of vodka
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posted June 11, 2006 10:50 PM |
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I don't belive god exists. In fact, I know god doesn't exist. But I'm too damn lazy to write about it here. But it would be better to tell you how to document yourselves than explain my point of view. It's actually quite simple: study history! Ancient history. After years and years and years of studying roman history, greek history, assiryan history, christian history, muslim history and so on, I am 100% sure God does not exist. The more you will begin to understand on basic mythology, europen cosmogony, ancient beliefs and so on, you will realise that God doesn't exist;he can't possibly exist. What shocks me is christians who only read the Bible and take it for granted. People, wake up: Jesus wasn't the only mesiah, crucifixion was nothing special, heaven, hell and purgatory didn't first appear with Christianity.
I think you'll find it very interesting to know that the Chrisitian religuion is nothing original. It's a combination of greek, persian and egyptian mythology, as well as other elements from various ancient beliefs.
Hell, I'd be more elaborate if I weren't so lazy as to write.
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What can you expect from a world where everybody lives because they're too afraid to commit suicide?
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dread_knight
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Converting Vegetarians
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posted June 12, 2006 02:45 AM |
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I don't belive god exists. In fact, I know god doesn't exist. But I'm too damn lazy to write about it here. But it would be better to tell you how to document yourselves than explain my point of view. It's actually quite simple: study history! Ancient history. After years and years and years of studying roman history, greek history, assiryan history, christian history, muslim history and so on, I am 100% sure God does not exist. The more you will begin to understand on basic mythology, europen cosmogony, ancient beliefs and so on, you will realise that God doesn't exist;he can't possibly exist. What shocks me is christians who only read the Bible and take it for granted. People, wake up: Jesus wasn't the only mesiah, crucifixion was nothing special, heaven, hell and purgatory didn't first appear with Christianity.
I think you'll find it very interesting to know that the Chrisitian religuion is nothing original. It's a combination of greek, persian and egyptian mythology, as well as other elements from various ancient beliefs.
Hell, I'd be more elaborate if I weren't so lazy as to write.
I know that. That civilizations falled and raised long before the bible. But I was talking about god as a concept and not as part of a religion.
God as a concept of life, as an entity that got it all started. Not as a divine personality that punishes people.
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ChEsHiReKaT
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posted June 12, 2006 03:05 AM |
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@ChEsHiReKaT: Does it seem logical to you that god would lead 5Billion people down the road of sinning? And then burn them in hell?
Doesn't sound like a loving god to me.
God does these things to see where you stand. I for one am NOT christian at all, I was at one time but not now, and reading the bible you see alot of things. God throws you many options but you see the ones you wish to see. He never points you on the straight path, it's like your a a 4 way fork in the road, 2 paths are good 2 are bad, only he knows the good ones and the bad ones but lets you make your own mind on wich way you go.
Trust me I am not preaching, cause god only knows I haven't taken the best path in life. I have learned from mistakes and have grown from them. In all my coming with preachers and curches they always say the same thing......"god does everything for a reason".
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frostwolf
Famous Hero
livin' in a bottle of vodka
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posted June 13, 2006 01:04 AM |
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I know that. That civilizations falled and raised long before the bible. But I was talking about god as a concept and not as part of a religion.
God as a concept of life, as an entity that got it all started. Not as a divine personality that punishes people.
Well, if you are looking for the mathematical god, the God that fundamentalists belive in, then yes, he does exist. But in that case, God is merely a name for what is usually called "the prime cause"(considering that the universe today is an effect of a cause, and that in turn is an effct of yet another cause, and so on).
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What can you expect from a world where everybody lives because they're too afraid to commit suicide?
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dread_knight
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Converting Vegetarians
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posted June 13, 2006 03:18 AM |
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Quote:
I know that. That civilizations falled and raised long before the bible. But I was talking about god as a concept and not as part of a religion.
God as a concept of life, as an entity that got it all started. Not as a divine personality that punishes people.
Well, if you are looking for the mathematical god, the God that fundamentalists belive in, then yes, he does exist. But in that case, God is merely a name for what is usually called "the prime cause"(considering that the universe today is an effect of a cause, and that in turn is an effct of yet another cause, and so on).
No, not the prime cause, not the big bang, it's something that is supernatural that started the natural, life can't start from nothing!
A cell can't just appear, right?
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Aculias
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posted June 13, 2006 07:05 AM |
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Believing in god or not.
You have to learn from your mistakes or it just keeps repeating.
No good thinking that your saved because you pray & then you repeat your mistakes then pray for forgiveness again lol.
You can tell everyone how much you learned from the past, but you cant lie to yourself.
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Dreaming of a Better World
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Lith-Maethor
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posted June 13, 2006 09:08 AM |
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to believe... or not to believe...
first of all, I will start with a disclaimer... its now 09:20 and I haven't slept for the last 20+ hours... (and this, following two 30+ allnighters) ...therefore, I cannot be held responsible for any mental disorders manifesting after people read my post (assuming my tired self does not hit "Clear Fields" in the end) ...anyway, off to the juicy bits...
...I was raised an Orthodox Christian (as the majority of Greeks) and as a kid, I was an altar boy, went to sunday school... and all the time questioned fundamental parts of christian dogma (from creation to certain inaccuracies in the new testament) ...I've been considered a smart kid (or demented by some), but if an 8 year old boy can find flaws in christian dogma, no matter how smart he is (or sounds) then clearly something is wrong with the equation...
...I would get the answer to that, about a decade later, but lets see the equation first, shall we? ...yeah, I am a geek above all... and proud of it... in any case, this is the equation and if you think otherwise, feel free to correct me:
religion = church + philosophy + dogma + institution
...from the above we have that religion equals the church (in the original meaning of the word, mind you... the people themselves, low clergy and both believers and lay members) plus the philosophy behind it (thou shalt not kill, love thy neighbour, etc...) plus the dogma (Holy Triad, Heaven, Hell, miracles, etc...) plus the institution (also known as organized religion and high clergy) ...any questions so far? any factors I left behind? I hope not...
church is pretty obvious in how it is important... without a church, you have no religion to speak of ...these are the people that usually live by the teachings, or ignore them, these are the ones taking arms at the beckon of those who know better and have a higher calling... and in the end, these are the people that spawned the religion to begin with (unless of course you believe the religion was truly inspired by God, or Gods, or whathaveyou)
philosophy is, to me, the most important part of any religion, the spiritual core... when it all comes down to it, this is why someone should choose one religion over the other, not for any rewards in afterlife or whatnot (because that usually counters the whole point of following that religion) but because of the belief system itself... does it make me a better person? how is better defined to begin with? how does it affect my daily life?
dogma on the other hand, is what I call the fluff of the matter (and I am talking about the supernatural aspect of things, not the Kevin Smith movie) ...depending on the religion, there is one god (by whatever name), many gods (three, twelve, twenty three and a half, a few thousands) or whether or not gods exist, is simply not important to the grand scheme of things... unfortunately, most people tend to cling on these parts and forget what is really important.. the philosophy underneath ...but hey, that's just me...
institution is the really juicy stuff though... what most people believe religion really is ...all those high clergy types, with lifestyles directly opposing the very things they teach (not always of course, but gimme some room for drama here) and the whole network that supports them, that at times looks more like a government or business than a structure built around the previous elements of religion...
"I have nothing against God, it is the fanclub I cannot stand"
...ever heard the above? I have... and it was the answer to my questions... more importantly, this one: "what is really wrong about religion?" ...and I dare you to prove me wrong... show me that most of the suffering attributed to religion (mostly christianity and islam, but I say any and all) was not because of this factor... the "fanclub" ...aka, clergy... or rather, organized religion
...so sick and tired by them, because lets face it, the world would be a far better place without organized religion, while all major religions teach something good under all the fluff in their respective philosophies, as well as because of the insufferable plotholes in the dogma (not to mention a constant and rather religious -excuse the pun- efford by the ones in charge to ignore some parts of said dogma that would give people more freedom) I finally turned my back to my religion so far...
...in its place, I embraced a philosophy that is more to my liking... not sure if it is closer to liberal Buddhism, or a combination of buddhism philosophy and core christian beliefs, but whatever it is, it is not a religion... God is simply not a factor in my life ..if God exists. well...he/she/it is not doing a very good job and does not deserve any worship from me ...if God does not exist, more power to me
...closing, I would like to note two things... first of all, I am not trying to shove my personal views down anybody's throat ...tolerance is the key here... and something most forget ...and second, I bet my right arm there are dozens of things I wanted to include but my limited mental capacity right now does not allow me to...
and in the words of a celebrity... "th-th-th-th-th-that's all folks!"
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You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted June 16, 2006 12:41 PM |
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I used to think like that too.
At first I thought, hey, well all this philosophy (as you put it) sounds good and all, but I don't believe in the dogma (again), then I can just follow the teachings without being part of the religion.
Sounds logical enough, but I've found that it doesn't work that way.
The world would be a great place if it could.
Philosophy basically comes down to rules, no matter how softly theyre disguised, rules, and guidelines, but I've found that no rules can account for every situation, so it is impossible to live your life by any one creed, rather just judging the situation and making the best as you can at the time. That is being the best person you can be, and if everyone did this the world would be as good as it's going to get.
Humans are so pathetic in reality. Were just the product of evolution, but we don't want to believe that. That's another factor that influenced religion. We didn't evolve from filthy monkeys, no, we were created in the image of a divine being. So religion started. But even without religion, people think that they can act 'righteous' and do what's 'good', and say what's important. But it's all talk. We're humans. We think how our genes tell us to think from birth, influenced by society. To be honest, an true original thought is impossible for humans. What we call original thoughts, using our 'imagination', is not creating new ideas, but rather restructuring a puzzle that's already been made, to make it different. This is why we are pathetic. You hear people make the most pointless thing sound so pure, and regardless of whether or not they're being hypocritical, and practice the ideas themselves (struggling to put into words what I'm trying to get across here) they are just products of an imagination, and are made to sound noble, which is the basis of religion. There we go  . This even applies to people trying to sound original, which is quite ironic.
There are a few members at HC who are like this. It's like creating a religion, on a small scale. They say all these beautiful words, these ideal concepts. But the only time they will be practiced is when we would have done it anyway, regardless of whther this person or that said we should, because it's in our very being.
Does that deny free will? No. We still can control what we do, but only to a certain extent. We can't do what the bible says. We can't love someone we truly hate, and although someone might step out and say "The true wise man can peer through the faults in his enemy and see only what is good in him" or some bull**** like that, which is a prime example of the philosophy of religion, and the trying to sound noble to excuse our pathetic existence I mentioned. We can decide what we want to eat, work how want to do, write inspiring stories, (speeches, on the other hand, usually have a good idea but are so much slavered in bull**** that it just seems more pathetic), but we can't control our emotions, and we can't control how we think. That's all it comes down to, and I think that undermines not only the church and all the other concepts, most importantly philosophy, certainly the dogma and in all, religion.
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John says to live above hell.
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william
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posted June 16, 2006 01:45 PM |
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you shouldnt stop believing in god because he can help you when you are hurt, and when you pray it is like a time when you talk with your inner thoughts and stuff.
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~Ticking away the moments that
make up a dull day, Fritter and
waste the hours in an off-hand
way~
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Lith-Maethor
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posted June 16, 2006 03:47 PM |
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mmm...
william: only if you believe, and even then it is not certain... religion may be good or bad, but it sure is not panacea...
titaniumalloy: allow me to disagree... the philosophy of any given religion, is more or less a collection of behaviour guidelines, not rules, merely guidelines ["it would be nice to act like this and that, for that reason"] and in most cases, it is a combination of common sense and courtesy ...certainly not applicable in every situation but adaptable to most, since they are not hard set rules
now, the dogma on the other hand, provides exactly those hard set rules, sometimes harsh and direct ["if you sin you have to confess and repend immediately"] other times less so ["if you don't improve yourself, you will never break free of the circle of life and death"] ...sometimes rewardingly ["if you die for god, you will go to heaven with a bunch of virgins"] and sometimes preemptively ["if you do not follow the rules, you will burn in hell"]
what both philosophy and dogma have in common is that nobody has any way to know whether you are following them or not ...unless of course you do something obviously against them (say ...murder, etc) ...granted however, people tend to regard the dogma more important and peer pressure can lead to some embarassing moments ...this however, does not mean you cannot follow either the philosophy or the dogma, it just prevents you from being a member of the organized religion... in my opinion, that can only be a good thing
in any case, your last post gave me the impression it is not god (or rather, religion) you have given up on, but humanity... and to a point, I do not blame you... but I hope your faith in us is restored soon
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You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
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Rhodan
Adventuring Hero
from Holland
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posted June 19, 2006 12:13 PM |
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Nick wrote briefly. Ralph studied the note, rubbed the side of his nose, and wished he didn't have to read it. Old ladies like this didn' cotton to stuff like what Nick had written. She'd likely call it blasphemy, and shout it loud enough to wake everybody in the place, too.
"What's he say?" Abagail asked.
"He says..." Ralph cleared his throat. "He says that he don't believe in God." The message relayed, he looked unhappily down at his shoes and waited for the explosion.
But she only chuckled, got up and walked across the room to Nick. She took one of his hands. "Bless you, Nick, but that don't matter. He believes in you."
The Stand, by Stephen King.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted June 20, 2006 03:34 PM |
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It's not humanity I've given up on, Lith. It's humanity that I see for what it is, and that is how it relates to religion.
But God is the prime example of the ignorance of mankind, no ignorance isn't the right word, the rejection of the truth that is so blatantly built in to us.
Another example is honour, which is almost as big a fallacy as God. There's humility, dignity, integrity, respect, but honour is, to put it bluntly, bull****. But we won't go into that.
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John says to live above hell.
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Rhodan
Adventuring Hero
from Holland
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posted June 22, 2006 01:31 PM |
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It's the eudemonists who keep humanity in balance... Eudemonists are part of the humanists. I myself don't see it as a religion, but if you think the meaning of life is 'to do what is good and to do that as much as possible' then being a good person is your God.
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dread_knight
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Converting Vegetarians
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posted June 22, 2006 01:47 PM |
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Quote:
It's the eudemonists who keep humanity in balance... Eudemonists are part of the humanists. I myself don't see it as a religion, but if you think the meaning of life is 'to do what is good and to do that as much as possible' then being a good person is your God.
So basically only mormons can get into heaven?
What is the definition of good. Good is relative, I can't see how does it relate. However loving yourself and respecting yourself that's the key. Yourself.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted June 22, 2006 02:03 PM |
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I'd rather dismiss the fallacy of God altogether, rather than create one out of an idea, just as the first Christian, or Muslim, or Jew, or Shinto did.
I'd rather live not only for today, and for myself, but for the future, and other people, and do THAT as best as I could.
Because living for today entitles that you can use as much oil, burn as much fossil fuels, and pollute the environment as much as you like with no concern for the people in a hundred, thousand, however many years who will have to face the world blowing up in their face.
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John says to live above hell.
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Cabranth
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 22, 2006 03:00 PM |
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Hello.
Quote:"I'd rather live not only for today, and for myself, but for the future, and other people, and do THAT as best as I could."
I have to agree.
I've heard so many people argue that without "Religion" there is nothing to keep people from stealing, murdering, etc.
I was raised a secular humanist (though I never heard the phrase till I was in my late teens), and I had no problem grasping the concept of Social and anti-Social behavior. Some "Religious" people however, seem to have a peculiar(selective?) interpretation of "morality".
I've heard people ask why anyone would want to live if they didn't believe in an "afterlife".
Well, DUH. The fact that we only get one shot at this makes life MORE important, not less. Kind of lends a sense of imperative when you know there aren't any do-overs.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted June 22, 2006 03:03 PM |
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Interesting thought. If there's an afterlife, it's worth it to spend your whole life in jail for murder (not that that would get you there, but persay), but if there is none, you're not going to go out and murder and get your only life thrown away!
But also, if the only reason you're being 'righteous' is to get into heaven, isn't that abit, well, self-centred? I'd prefer to do the right thing to make the world a better place, not to reward myself.
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John says to live above hell.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted December 05, 2006 01:25 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 09:33, 05 May 2008.
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My posts in this thread are all jumbled and dodgy, but I had to write an opinion essay for school and I figured that I would write it on this.
Here's a rather long essay on the nonexistence of god, I figure I might as well post it here might spur some more discussion, and there's only a small chance that someone might steal it
anyway here it is if anyone's interested:
WHY DO PEOPLE BELIEVE IN GOD?
By T.A.
Religion is hammered into our every day lives with an iron fist, ingrained into our brains from birth to the point that to question it is to accuse the majority of the world’s population of mass delusion, and is not only an insult, but is almost unfashionable. It is like a cage, which we are born into. Our cages may vary in size and comfort, but we are born into cages nonetheless. Children at the age of four can be said to be Christian or Muslim, to decide on theological and cosmological theories and beliefs that compose our entire lifestyle, when they are not even old enough to decide what to eat and when to sleep. I believe that freedom is to break out of this cage, and to realize the truth. The stubborn attitude of believers is the biggest dilemma faced by atheists, and the cunning invention of the human imagination means that the fallacy of god was not finished millennia ago when Christianity was founded, or when religion was founded, but is continually added to and multiplied to keep it alive in a world which has no place for a life changing lie.
As George Carlin said in irony;
“Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man - living in the sky - who watches everything you do, every minute of the day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time... But He loves you!"
From the perspective of the atheist, however, the question that must be asked is, “Why do people believe in god?”
There is no god. From outside this cage, not only does the idea of god seem detrimental, but also seems foolish and irrational. There is no proof in favour of god, and the proof against his existence is immeasurable.
The proof is immeasurable because everything around us can be used to disprove religion, yet our limited technologies can only record and measure a miniscule amount.
Our belief in an omnipotent and mysterious god can be attributed to its very counter-argument; evolution. It is a survival trait to believe in a common god, to work together for one cause without betrayal. In our evolutional history, whenever an unexplainable phenomenon was encountered, however, it could be attributed to this ‘god’. Humans need something to believe in, to fight for, to keep us going, it’s in our nature. And god was the best candidate at the time. Why god is there makes perfect sense, but not why we still cling to him, like a child to Santa Claus.
Now we are in a new age of technology, which allows us to research these phenomena and find reason behind them, hence proof against god.
But the believers stubbornly reject this proof in order to maintain their faith, because it’s a survival trait that is as hard to give up as sex, as eating, to fight faith for some is like fighting appetite or lust. There are any number of reasonable explanations behind religion and its associated behaviors, but none of them include an all-powerful god.
Yet there is still no substantial proof of god, in any form. This is, to the atheist, obviously because you cannot prove the existence of an imagined idea, and to prove the existence of that which does not exist is a contradiction in itself. So lack of proof doesn’t completely disprove god, but it makes his existence a lot less likely.
On top of this, it is also theoretically and scientifically impossible for us to go to heaven. Our bodies run on electric impulses in our nervous system that makes us function. This is what makes up our thoughts, our memories, and our mind; this is what can be construed to be the soul, so this must be what supposedly god sends to heaven when we die. But when we die, these thoughts and memories merely fade away, like pulling the plug on a power source. This is called Information Theoretical Death, or total death; people can be revived from this state, but there is no point because this person will not remember who they are, will have no prior personality, and may die from shock or inability to live in an adult world. This shows that our memories simply dissipate as our bodies die, and there is no evidence in the known world which even hints at the possibility of such energy transcending into a higher place. In fact there is even the law of the conservation of energy which denies this possibility, ergo, heaven cannot exist.
Conversely, religious leaders even change religious stories that have been disproved to fit in with the newest scientific discoveries. This alone should be enough proof that god is just a fallacy, but people rely on the word of these leaders more than they know.
An example of this is in Thomas Aquinas’s list of proof of god. As Carl Sagan said;
“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.”
One of the ‘proofs’ is that; “Nothing moves without a prior mover”. As things are moving today, this proves that there must have been a creator originally to set things into motion. This idea would have been unnecessary centuries ago, when we didn’t have proof against the bible stories of god, but now this is clung to by creationists as their strongest weapon. When the Big Bang theory was coined, it was at first flatly rejected as blasphemy. The story of Darwin’s Theory of Evolution is also similar, but now religious theories such as Thomas Aquinas’s ‘proofs’, claim that god was simply there to set everything into motion, to wind the clockwork. Soon enough, if all scientific discoveries are incorporated into religious texts, then the whole idea of religion will scatter and disprove god altogether.
The scientific proof against god has done this to most of the Bible stories and miracles which are now considered impossible, but now the believer will say that these stories are mere metaphors and are not to be taken literally, as they were for many centuries. We can now explain why our world turned out the way it is, but not yet why exactly it is here. That leaves the atheist with the dilemma of the beginning, as Thomas Aquinas points out, and is the biggest argument of the creationists.
The creationists will argue that world being perfect for supporting life, and that countless species of life are present today, is so inconceivably improbable that it is in fact impossible for there to be any cause other than a divine creator.
A suitable metaphor for this was made by Fred Hoyle, being the image of a Boeing 747 aircraft in a scrap yard. The metaphor is that if a hurricane passed through a scrap metal yard, the chance of it assembling perfectly into a Boeing 747 is so unlikely that it is almost impossible. However, this argument comes as a double edged sword, as was said by Richard Dawkins, a creator god would be, to paraphrase Hoyle’s metaphor, the ‘Ultimate 747’, and even more unlikely to be created than a regular airplane. So while we are unlikely to be here without a creator, a creator is even more unlikely to be here without a creator, which just postpones the problem. The creator is the least probable option, as can be summed up with Occam’s razor.
Occam’s razor is often paraphrased to state that "All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best one." The fact that an intangible, almighty, mysterious being of which there is no substantial evidence creating the world is a lot less simple than the theories which explain it today, and that the very idea of god should be, in economic principle, cut away, and the nonexistence of god preferred.
The reason we are here after all, can be explained through the aforementioned theories of evolution. But evolution could not have taken place without the right conditions on earth. This is referred to as the ‘Goldilocks’ effect, where our situation is ‘just right’ for supporting human life. This has been a damaging blow to the atheist argument. The characteristics of the creation of the universe were finely tuned to perfection for human life. These characteristics are listed in Martin Ree’s ‘Just Six Numbers’, but perhaps the most important number is the magnitude of the ‘strong’ forces in the beginning of the universe. The arbitrary number of this strong force in our universe is 0.007. If, at the beginning of the universe, this has been slightly smaller, around 0.006, all the hydrogen atoms present at the beginning would not have bonded, and no chemistry would result to create anything larger in the universe. If it was larger, around 0.008, all the hydrogen would have fused and life could not evolve. Other things, such as the acceleration of the creation of the universe, were just right. The speed at which the universe expanded was on the brink of going so fast that no matter grouped together and was all spread out across the universe in an atomic ‘soup’, or that it was too slow so that the gravity of the universe was so great that it turned the tide of creation and all the atoms collapsed back in on each other in a ‘big crunch’. How is it possible that these numbers are so ideal?
The believer will claim that again, it was god who chose these settings when he created the universe. However, a god who was capable of this must be at least as unlikely as the settings themselves, and so is perhaps even more unlikely, which doesn’t solve the problem at all.
The answer is the anthropic principle. There are theories that our universe is one of a multitude, like bubbles in foam; each universe is adjacent to one another, yet completely separate. Our universe has been determined to be finite in it’s lifespan, so these ‘bubbles’ in the multiverse could be said to be created and destroyed in an infinite cycle. If each of these universes have different and random settings, it is likely that one of them will be suitable for human life, and we are in it because it is the only one we can be in. This answers the question of the improbability of our existence, and allows for the dismissal of a false creator. This is like, instead of one hurricane passing through one scrap yard, there are in fact thousands, millions or even infinite hurricanes, and infinite scrap yards, so at least one of them must assemble into a plane.
Despite this, many people are still happy with the idea of this god, and how he created the world, and accept this idea. The claim is that the world is far too beautiful to be created by chance, and that it must have been the product of ‘intelligent design’.
This was even agreed upon by Albert Einstein, in saying;
“God does not play dice.”
This question, however, is much more easily answered. Life is not perfect. In fact, upon close inspection, if it were the product of intelligent design, it was a very bad designer. If the architect is in fact omnipotent, then he could not possibly have made the life on earth, otherwise it would be perfect.
In fact, an all powerful god could have made the universe however he wanted, so why didn’t he make it ideal? Why are there suffering, pain and evil in the world, if there is a god who loves us, and who could put an end to it?
The god that the theists believe in, who is theory responsible for this world, is therefore not only false but immoral.
If god exists, he is so obviously immoral and malicious, and without proof of his very existence, believers cannot possibly be expected to follow such a ridiculous order. Especially since the teachings of religion aim at good morals, then a god of these religions cannot possibly exist. Many times throughout the bible god had supposedly spoken to chosen prophets throughout the world, often commanding them to perform acts for him. These people are expected to carry out these acts as a show of faith on their behalf. But with no evidence, how can they be sure that it is not satan attempting to trick them? The followers therefore meet a paradox; to not do as god says would be to blaspheme against his command, but to do as he says could be to perform for the devil, which would be blasphemy. It seems either way believers are damned, which is a flaw in the religious dogma.
An example of this is in the book of Genesis, when god commands Joseph to sacrifice his son Isaac in the name of the lord. Is this not infanticide, one of the most heinous crimes of today? Would not someone today who killed their son in the name of the lord be locked up for murder? Although this was in the end a test of faith for Joseph, it could have been a test to see if Joseph would break the 10 commandments so easily, in which case he would have failed.
As Richard Dawkins said,
"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."
This brings the doctrine of religion to another dilemma; are deeds good because god says they are, or does god say things because they are good? If it is good because god says it is, then by definition god is immoral, as god could command someone to commit infanticide, rape or murder, and to say that is right would be preposterous; a god who commands this should be shunned, not worshipped. On the other hand, if god says it because it is good, then god is not necessary to study the good, and therefore god should be removed altogether.
This solidifies further the notion that religion is in fact ludicrous.
Woody Allen sums this up with his wit in saying;
“If it turns out that there is a God, I don't think that he's evil. But the worst that you can say about him is that basically he's an underachiever.”
Another example of this is sin. Sin is attributed to many things which are natural traits that we are ‘programmed’, through evolution, to do. Lust is classed as a sin, rather than the evolutionary train to reproduce. Gluttony is a sin, rather than the evolutionary need to feed. Without sin, we would not have survived as a race, and yet it is the one thing that god is most against. The bible says that by being human, by simply being born, we inherit the sins of our fathers in the crucifixion of Christ. Does this mean that god is opposed to us? If we were made into sinners through the ways of our universe, and if god created the universe, then god made us sinners. If god merely created the universe in the beginning, then he would, being supreme, have made it exactly how he wanted, and would also, being all knowing, know exactly what would happen in result, even with free will. In other words; if god created the universe, he caused us to do every single one of our actions, in one way or another, and so we go to hell by his hand. This, by the bible itself, proves that god is flawed again in his creations, and therefore disproves his existence, and would be ridiculous to believe in such a god.
In fact, if in today’s age, a man stated to the world that he was the son of a celestial creator of the universe and that everyone should listen to him, or else they will all burn for eternity, he would be ridiculed, just as Jesus was in the New Testament. With no substantiation and such a huge claim, he would be dismissed as a madman.
We have, nevertheless evolved to believe in a god, in one form or another, and this leads us to inquire as to whether it is in fact beneficial to believe.
It cannot be denied that religion has helped our society to evolve as fruitfully as it has, only the extent to which it has shaped is questioned, and whether it has been for better or for worse.
Ever since the first polytheistic religions were imagined, religion has helped to bring structure to our society. People go to church, they give to charity, and they do good deeds, however small, in the name of the lord. All of these things help to better society. It gives fellow believers a brotherhood, to which they feel loyal.
The bible also brings morals to society. People may begin to think, ‘if there is no god, why be good?’ One argument against atheism is that if it were more widespread than Christianity or any other religion, the civilized world would descend into anarchy. This is of course an excessive embellishment, but it has some hints of truth.
However it is also noted that religion can be injurious to society.
A million dollar experiment was conducted on this matter, and recorded in the American Heart Journal. This experiment entailed 1,802 patients in need of coronary bypass surgery in six different hospitals in America to be prayed for differently. They were split into three groups randomly; the first group was prayed for, without them knowing. The second group was not prayed for, without them knowing. The third group was prayed for, and they were told so.
The results were unexpected. Predictably, there was little difference between groups one and two. However, there was a significant difference between group 3 and the others; the patients in group 3 were on average worse off.
This could be taken to mean that prayers actually harm society more than help it. If people believe that a false god will save them from their troubles, they may stop trying to solve them themselves, which may lead to the breakdown of society on a small scale. The patients in group 3 obviously were affected mentally by the experiment, and were lead into a false sense of security. Is god smiting these people for blaspheming, or is this proof against god? Common sense would have to say that a loving god would not harm these innocent patients, and so leans towards the other option.
As stated formerly, god is attributed to that which we cannot prove with science. To attempt to prove these phenomena is blasphemy and used to be a crime, and in some places such as Pakistan it still is, as said by Thomas Jefferson;
"The priests of the different religious sects... dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight, and scowl on the fatal harbinger announcing the subdivision of the duperies on which they live."
This has a negative effect on civilization. If Thomas Edison attributed electricity to god, would we have lights and computers now?
Or is it as Victor Hugo stated;
"There is in every village a torch - the teacher: and an extinguisher - the clergyman."
Science is like fire to religion, because it can potentially disprove it is in effect its destruction. That is why the Italian church, the extinguisher, put Galileo under house arrest when he proposed that Earth is not in fact the centre of the solar system and the universe, but in fact revolves around then sun. This hints at the fallacy of god, and is against everything the theist lives for, and so they shun technology and science as proof against god himself.
Religion can also be blamed for many disasters and awful occurrences in human history. Religion is a powerful topic, and a very personal belief. As mentioned earlier, it is impolite to question someone’s beliefs, and can lead to serious arguments and religious fights. It was this which sparked many of the greatest wars of mankind, attributing numerous atrocities to the roots of religion.
Still, in some countries today, you can receive the death penalty on religious grounds. This involves taking a human life in the name of a false deity, which is disastrous to the unbeliever. Depending on the local government, religion is the grounds for countless breaches of human rights, such as sex and race discrimination, as well as homophobia. As taken from Leviticus 18:22, homosexuality is an abomination, and for this reason homosexuality is illegal in some countries today, homosexual marriage is still debated and private homosexuality was illegal in Britain until 1967.
If religion causes so much distress, bloodshed, hatred, violence and fear, all without any proof of worth, no one can righteously say that it is worth it.
Despite the fact that there is no proof of god, and monumental evidence against it, 84% of the world’s population believes in a god in one form or another. Is it really possible that they are all wrong? People believe in god originally because we evolved to believe, just as we evolved to eat and sleep. But god in a religious sense is a foolish and immoral belief from an external perspective, however, and to believe is to harm society as a whole; if only it were possible to gain the benefits of religion without the disadvantages which weigh down the whole notion to an irrational level.
For this reason believing in god is unwise not only in the sense that it is dedicating your life to the cause of mass delusion, but also that you are wasting your life in worship of an unworthy ideal.
Either way, it being possible that there is only one god, it is possible that we only have the one short life. Therefore must decide wisely on how to use it and in doing so we can be said to gamble on god.
No one can completely and entirely prove god to be true or false, so if you don’t believe the best case scenario is one short life, if god doesn’t exist, and the worst case is if god does exist, and you are destined to an eternity of pain and suffering. On the other hand, if you do believe, the worst case scenario is if god doesn’t exist, and you live one short life with the disadvantages that come with religion and worship, and the best case is if god does exist, and you have the gift of eternal life.
Whether or not you believe in god, it’s your choice.
Bibliography:
‘The God Delusion’
Richard Dawkins
Publisher: Bantam Press (2 October 2006)
‘The Pig That Wants to be Eaten’
Author: Julian Baggini
Publisher: Granta Books (7 July 2005)
www.wikipedia.com
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John says to live above hell.
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