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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: I gave up on believing in God.
Thread: I gave up on believing in God. This Popular Thread is 204 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 40 80 120 160 ... 200 201 202 203 204 · «PREV / NEXT»
baklava
baklava


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Mostly harmless
posted August 29, 2009 05:47 PM
Edited by baklava at 17:48, 29 Aug 2009.

@JJ
I am qualified to judge as much as anyone is. As I have seen atheists use the argument about repent helping murderers get in heaven, I have full qualification to say that some atheists think that way - and to explain why I see that view as wrong.

Whether I participate in a discussion or not is my choice, and it has nothing to do with where it leads. I participate because I want to.

In fact, here's my little secret. I participate in online discussions in a desperate attempt to reduce my severely overgrown penis. Doesn't work as of yet, but I need to keep trying. There is always hope.
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TheDeath
TheDeath


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with serious business
posted August 29, 2009 06:08 PM

Quote:
What the hell are you talking about? Are you saying that there are situations when a soldier should ask himself whether an order is evil and not to be followed or not?
What's wrong with that? I suppose that the fact Christians have been executed for things like this and refusing "bad things" because of it doesn't count, but crusades do right?

You're a human, not a robot. You question. Or does that only apply to other discussions, like eh... questioning religion?

Quote:
Well, I think a person in the mafia who was forced to be so through gunpoint could honestly repent. But that's because his or her actions are not necessarily their own entirely.
Well if you are forced, sometimes you just can't refuse it, not all have the same strength. And yes you can be sorry for that, and I mean honestly. I didn't say that a soldier can't repent or anything, if he means it.
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Elodin
Elodin


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posted August 29, 2009 06:29 PM
Edited by Elodin at 18:30, 29 Aug 2009.

Here is an account of the apostles being ordered by authorities to stop preaching in the name of Jesus.

Quote:
Act 5:28  Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.
Act 5:29  Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.



As a Christian taking up your cross and following Christ sometimes does literally mean you will lose your earthly life. All of the apostles except for John were evidently murdered for their faith.

Quote:
Luk 9:23  And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

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bixie
bixie


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my common sense is tingling!
posted August 29, 2009 10:18 PM

Elodin, for all your bible qoutes, there is a very simple way, very very very simple way, to define a Christian.

ask them "Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the son of god or a variation thereof?"

if they answer no, then they are not Christian.

if they answer yes, then they are Christian, and if they commit Rape, Pillage and slaughter, they are just to behaving to they're commandments.

they are not evil impish atheists holding crosses and dancing about on the bible, and not sinister sacrilegious satanists besmerching the name of christ for their own glory, and not putrid puck-like pagans waving various bits of genitaila at god with a shout of "READ MY SCRIPTURE!!!!!"

they are christian.

the truth hurts, but it doesn't make it any less real.
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TheDeath
TheDeath


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posted August 29, 2009 10:21 PM

I think they're satanists. Satanists believe in God but go against Him.
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bixie
bixie


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my common sense is tingling!
posted August 29, 2009 10:36 PM

Quote:
I think they're satanists. Satanists believe in God but go against Him.


true, but i doubt they would have come into existence much before the 18th century. Similarly, they were not... let me just repeat that for the hard of hearing... THEY WERE NOT!... and again, for luck THEY WERE NOT!!!!! some secretive Cabal of illumanti trying to pervert the church on some heretical course.
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alcibiades
alcibiades


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posted August 29, 2009 10:59 PM

Quote:
Elodin, for all your bible qoutes, there is a very simple way, very very very simple way, to define a Christian.

ask them "Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the son of god or a variation thereof?"

if they answer no, then they are not Christian.

if they answer yes, then they are Christian, and if they commit Rape, Pillage and slaughter, they are just to behaving to they're commandments.

they are not evil impish atheists holding crosses and dancing about on the bible, and not sinister sacrilegious satanists besmerching the name of christ for their own glory, and not putrid puck-like pagans waving various bits of genitaila at god with a shout of "READ MY SCRIPTURE!!!!!"

they are christian.


Agreed, that is exactly what I think also.
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Elodin
Elodin


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posted August 29, 2009 11:39 PM

Quote:
Elodin, for all your bible qoutes, there is a very simple way, very very very simple way, to define a Christian.

ask them "Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the son of god or a variation thereof?"

if they answer no, then they are not Christian.

if they answer yes, then they are Christian, and if they commit Rape, Pillage and slaughter, they are just to behaving to they're commandments.



Sorry, but the Bible says you are wrong.

Quote:
Joh 10:27  My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Joh 8:31  Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

Joh 14:24  He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Php 3:17  Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
Php 3:18  (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Php 3:19  Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

1Jn 1:6  If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

1Jn 2:9  He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.

1Jn 2:11  But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

1Jn 2:4  He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1Jn 4:20  If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?



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del_diablo
del_diablo


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posted August 30, 2009 01:15 AM

Quote:
Sorry, but the Bible says you are wrong.


My book that I follow blindly with some minor questionings and pickings tells me that your wrong
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Shyranis
Shyranis


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posted August 30, 2009 03:36 AM
Edited by Shyranis at 03:52, 30 Aug 2009.

Quote:
Quote:
Sorry, but the Bible says you are wrong.


My book that I follow blindly with some minor questionings and pickings tells me that your wrong


It is right to him. And that is the only right that matters to him. What's it matter to you that it matters so much to him? =D

We have disagreements, but as civilized people we all respect each other enough. ^_^
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Kraken
Kraken


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posted August 30, 2009 03:50 AM

Elodin, the Sole Purpose of Christianity is to Love EVERYONE! That's what the New Testament is all about.
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Mytical
Mytical


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posted August 30, 2009 06:53 AM

The problem here is that it seems that everything somebody doesn't agree with is an insult.  Christians are not perfect.  Insult!  If you say that Christians are perfect you are a fool.  Insult!  Even though that is true.  NOBODY is perfect.  Regardless if somebody said such or not is beside the point.  If you didn't say something, then the statement doesn't apply to you.   Unless I am missing something.

Now about the first part of his statement.  I agree it is borderline, but there is a difference between what he said and saying "X is a snake." I have done everything I can to keep things civil, but some people have a hard time distinguishing insults from opinions.  Believe me when I say, I have penalized for insults and I will again.  However, the Mods get to define what is and is not an insult.  Sorry to say, but if anybody has a problem with that, then take it up with Val or feel free to depart.  It may not be 'fair', it may not be to your liking, but it is what it is.
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Elodin
Elodin


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posted August 30, 2009 07:16 AM
Edited by Elodin at 07:17, 30 Aug 2009.

No offense, but what I see appears to me to be moderation that favors particular viewpoints and allows people of differing viewpoints to be insulted.

I recognize moderation can be a difficult position to be in to try to keep eveyone happy. But if one group is allowed to insult the other just because the moderator favors on particular view point that is just wrong.

If I had used the "IF" statement and similar language I suspect I would have been "in trouble."

He said"Elodin, you can twist and turn and slither about as much as you like - if you contest the fact, that humans and Christian humans can err in their judgement you are a fool. And probably dishonest at that. Because without error is only god, by your own religion, and you should know that, so you should simply stop writing so much unconnected bla-bla."

Even though "IF" was used, he clearly he was implying that that was my position (even though it is not.) If IF gets around the Code of Conduct I guess people can just use IF statements to insult peopple from now on and appeal back to your verdict on this incident.

I don't have a problem with you determining what is an insult as long as you do so equitably. So if I use a similar IF statement to apply to someone in the future I assume it will be ok.

Like I have always said, all I want is an equal playing field.

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Mytical
Mytical


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posted August 30, 2009 07:16 AM

The above being said, I do want to take a moment to say this.  While I do not agree with everything you say Elodin, I respect your right to believe the way you do.  Overall, you do have some very good posts (The bible quoting not so much, because I believe a lot of it is out of context).  You may be a bit oversensitive, and take things directed to your religion as personal insults (when they are not), but I will give you credit for facing incredible odds.  Just take a minute and read the statements made once or twice more.

People disagreeing with you is not an insult, people not believing you is not an insult.  People arguing with you is not an insult.  I know you don't think so, but I am watching and keeping the tone down as well as I can.  Please don't start the "If they do something I should be allowed to also." because here is the thing.  Something comes up, and it is magnified and returned.  Then somebody else magnifys it and returns it, and it gets out of hand.

A lot of people need to clean up their act, but it takes one person to say.  Enough.  I won't sink to their level.  Do you honestly care what people on a forum think of you?  Is your ego that fragile?  Take the higher path, and they will respond.  If they don't we will ding them.  Just remember, everything is NOT an insult.  Feel free to contact us if you think there is an insult, but we might disagree.  If one doesn't agree, try another.  If all three of us don't agree, then maybe (just maybe) it isn't one?
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Mytical
Mytical


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posted August 30, 2009 07:20 AM

Simple question Elodin.  Do you believe that humans and/or christians can not err in judgement?  If you don't, and if you never said this, then the statement does not apply to you.  A simple, never said that, so it doesn't apply to me, would suffice.  How can something be an insult to you, if it does not apply to you?
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Elodin
Elodin


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posted August 30, 2009 07:30 AM

I have studied the Bible diligently since age 10 or so. While I don't have perfect knowledge of everything I do my best to not take anything out of context. I present multiple scriptures that testify a certain thing is true in order to avoid taking anything out of context.

Quote:

People disagreeing with you is not an insult, people not believing you is not an insult.  People arguing with you is not an insult.  



I have never said that any of those things is an insult. What I have complaing about is comments about my person. You can't show me a single incident where I have claimed any of those things to be an insult.

No, I don't mind what a random person on the internet has to say about me. But they should not be able to insult me with impunity when there is a code of conduct that is supposed to apply to everyone. What I do mind is others are allowed to use "strong language" but then I get called down if I "hold up a mirror."

The reason I began to "hold up a mirro" in the first place was moderators were allowing some peole to constantly get away with insults. If you go back and review my early posts of when I first started posting in the OSM all I would do to respond to insults was request a more civil discussion but that did not work and moderators did not intervene.

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DagothGares
DagothGares


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posted August 30, 2009 07:35 AM

there's a difference between 'stupid' and calling a german a nazi stalinist
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Mytical
Mytical


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posted August 30, 2009 07:45 AM

The thing is Elodin, that when you 'held up your mirror' things were amplified.  A small issue was made into a larger issue.  As one discussion recently said "A papercut was made into a knife wound" (Paraphrasing).  So matters were made worse.  Also, you tended to make a personal attack out of somebody's opinion of Christianity. We should take this to the feedback thread, this is WAYYY off topic ((sorry all)).
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Elodin
Elodin


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posted August 30, 2009 10:09 AM
Edited by Elodin at 10:10, 30 Aug 2009.

I don't expect furthur discussion on the matter to be fruitful so I'll leave it with what I've said here and in the feedback thread.

Quote:
there's a difference between 'stupid' and calling a german a nazi stalinist


I never called anyone a Nazi Stalinist.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted August 30, 2009 10:36 AM

Coming back to the thread issue,

we all know the saying that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. One property of human imperfection is, that good intentions sometimes turn out badly. Human judgement is faulty, still things have to be done or not done, no matter how sparse informations are, how doubtful a logic, how threadbare an assumption.

Just because a person is a Christian, he/she isn't immune against that. Moreover, it is pretty easy to sit comfily on your living room sofa and contemlate about how Christian-like would be this or that, but it's a completely different thing, when you are in some narrows and have to make a decision - god won't help: he mustn't, because that would inhibt free will. Moreover, pretty often strongs emotions will cloud reason. Fervent belief - the desire to do the right thing, to be a real Christian, not to fail the Lord and so o, may have exactly the opposite effect.

There are lots of "pitfalls" along the way, because many a thing is open to interpretation. I've given a lot of examples here, but haen't got a real answer on any of them. Another one:
Looking at Elodin's "definition" of murder, which was something like "deliberately killing a known innocent person".

For a Christian, then, is an abortion doctor an innocent person? Hardly; for all intents and purposes he is a mass-murderer of little babies, so killing one wouldn't fall under the definition of murder. At this point, it suffices to say, that quite obviously that definition of murder simply isn't enough to exclude those docs from being fair game for killing, not murdering.

The problem is not the definition. The problem is, that the moment a human takes responsibility for the lifes of other people, errors will happen, mistakes will be made, WRONG will happen. People whose responsibilities will include power over life and death are prone to make errors that leads to people dying. This includes not only leaders, docs, policemen, and so on, it includes everyone who deliberately judges something and acts on it.

You might for example be sick and tired of a certain something: criminal activities in your neighborhood, people around the world starving to death, irresponsible politicians filling their own pockets, whatever, and you might decide to do something against it. As soon as you act, chances are that you will err in your judgement at one time and do something "wrong".

Or look at those docs who work hard - 24 hour shifts in emergencies. There may caome a time where they simply can't cope - and take something to be able to. If someone dies on the op slab because of the something taken, the doc is guilty and to blame - but is he less Christian because of that?

The bottom line is, that in reality "good Christians" will sin all the time, and unavoidable, and naturally grave and gravest sins will be among them as well. Like murder.

Taking responsibility combined with (human) error of judgement. Noone is immune againt that - no matter what the bible says.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't think there really is much to discuss about that - it's as obvious as the Earth isn't flat, you should think.
But in fact, if you look at things, there is a disturbing tendency of "knowing wrong and right" with the hardcore believers, no matter the religion the follow. You might think a hardcore Christian would leave the judging to god - but strangely enough they tend to be loudest about demanding death penalties, condemning "sinners" and crying for tougher handling of them. However, that means that they willingly accept the "error victims". If you look at any thousand condemned murderers, chances are that one or more amongst them have wrongly been convicted. Applying the death penalty to them means that a couple of them will in fact be innocent. So the "good Christian" doesn't seem to have a problem with "collateral justice damage, which would be an example for what was described above:

Taking responsibility (apply the death penalty to all capital crimnals) combined with error of judgement (innocent victims of errors of justice).

As a last comment - what will make people "take responsibiliy"? Certainty. If people are CERTAIN, that a decision will be right, they will take the responsibility of making it. Who is most certain that their opinions are right? Who is therefore prone to errors, errors with consequences?

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