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| Thread: Phantom Forces a leeeeetle overpower? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Andmcmuffin2
Hired Hero
In need of Undead Avatar
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posted July 01, 2006 12:57 AM |
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It's timing. The phantoms have the same initiative as the original. But, If they're tied with other units, they go first.
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The wraith is reserved?!?! NOOOO I'M NOT GOING TO BE PINK AND UNDEAD!
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Klaital
Known Hero
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posted July 01, 2006 07:49 AM |
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it's not very common that your phantoms can move right after they've been cloned...there are several differences and similarities in accordance to the casting and usage of the Phantom Forces/Clone spell between H5 and H3:
in H3, you can cast clone at any time you want , as your hero can cast a spell at any of your creature's turns, as long as you haven't casted a spell that round, which makes it much more likely that your cloned stack will get to move, but in H5, there is a minimal chance that your cloned stack can move before one of your enemy's creatures tries to attack it... your clone relies on it's incorporeal ability to survive.
In H3, your cloned creatures have been able to cast spells (eg. resurrect), this is the same in H5. However, the H3 cloned units can only cast if the original creature has not yet cast...(unless it's master genies or ogre magi who can cast multiple times, but you'll have less casts left to use depending on how many your original has already used)
In H3, phantom forces/clone requires more and more advanced magic to cast it on higher tier creatures, which is the same in H5.
In H5, you can phantom your phantoms, while in H3 you cannot clone your clones...(big difference, makes phantom forces more useful...)
IMO, phantom forces is fine as is...maybe a slight tweak to take it to a lv 4 spell might be better 
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it's not very common that your phantoms can move right after they've been cloned...there are several differences and similarities in accordance to the casting and usage of the Phantom Forces/Clone spell between H5 and H3:
in H3, you can cast clone at any time you want, as your hero can cast a spell at any of your creature's turns, as long as you haven't casted a spell that round, which makes it much more likely that your cloned stack will get to move, but in H5, there is a minimal chance that your cloned stack can move before one of your enemy's creatures tries to attack it... your clone relies on it's incorporeal ability to survive.
In H3, your cloned creatures have been able to cast spells (eg. resurrect), this is the same in H5. However, the H3 cloned units can only cast if the original creature has not yet cast...(unless it's master genies or ogre magi who can cast multiple times, but you'll have less casts left to use depending on how many your original has already used)
In H3, phantom forces/clone requires more and more advanced magic to cast it on higher tier creatures, which is the same in H5.
In H5, you can phantom your phantoms, while in H3 you cannot clone your clones...(big difference, makes phantom forces more useful...)
IMO, phantom forces is fine as is...maybe a slight tweak to take it to a lv 4 spell might be better
I like the H3 version. Cloning say, Archangels after they have cast resurrection and being able to cast it again is cheese. 30 Archangels can cast resurrection better than a hero with 40+ spellpower!
We now see why they removed incorporeal from Spec Dragons and Wraiths  the imbaness that could have been...
I don't have a problem with phantom forces. A spell fling is all it takes.
Most importantly, the summoning tree is not impressive besides this spell and conjure phoenix. They had to give a broken spell to make it look attractive. 
I rather like Summon Elemental and Earthquake also from summoning spells.
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Tarflin
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 16, 2006 09:30 PM |
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A 'Little' overpowered?
Phantom Forces is too powerful to be a level 5 spell, if they changed it so you couldn't cast it on clones and removed the incorporeal ability it would make a good level 5 spell, as it is now.... Well let's just say that by itself it is enough reason to get the Summoning skill.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted July 16, 2006 11:18 PM |
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I'd say, remove the ability to clone existing Clones, as well as take away any special ability of their "parent" stack (so Cloned Archmages cannot cast spells, since they don't have mana - but they're still useful as ranged attackers). Alternately, they could share their mana pool with the "parent" stack instead, as well as any limited-use special abilites.
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Darksequence
Hired Hero
For great justice!
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posted July 21, 2006 12:26 AM |
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I might b the only one but i dont think cloning is so overpowered.
I rather like summoning magic and have played with it a lot in duel mode and standard games and sure its useful but not overpowered compared to things like (empowered) meteor storm or frenzy and master of puppets.
Btw its nice that clones retain abillities because it now is sometimes more useful to clone a stack of weaker creatures instead of always the strongest stack. Also cloning ur angels is not really a strategy u can build on in a normal game:
1st, u almost never get summoning magic offered as a knight.
2nd, even if you do, getting expert summoning magic for just the use of 1 spell sounds kinda strange sinds knights cannot get other summ spells in own mage guild.and you will have to up guild in advance because u might not even get phantom forces( same is true for inferno.)
Although i agree that it should not work with gating, its actually quite easy to dispatch clones unless that hero has expert sorcery and you didn't even get stone spikes....
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hobowu
Known Hero
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posted July 22, 2006 05:48 AM |
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Neither do I think that phamtom forces is overpowered...too often you phantom your unit, and your phantom doesn't get to move and it's gone... compared to the clone spell from H3, in which your clone moves right after
Phantom forces has it's uses if you cast them on blood maidens, where they actually have a chance of moving... this spell really lies on the luck factor of the incorporeal ability...if they miss, then lucky you. If they hit, then you've wasted one of their turns, but you have also cast your phantom forces for nothing. Of course, it's usually the enemy hero who AoE spells you, or your phantom dies from an area attack(eg sprites).
Phantom forces WOULD be overpowered if your phantom got to move right after... but mostly it doesn't...so I wouldn't consider it overpowered.
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Top-Rob
Hired Hero
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posted July 22, 2006 02:40 PM |
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Vs the AI Phantom Forces is overpowered. But that often says more about the AI than PF anyway 
Against a human player it strongly depends one the faction you're playing against. If the enemy hasn't got destructive magic and no units have the ability to area-attack, this spell can mess them up good.
Duplicating your strongest stack with incorporeal ability for little mana IS incredibly strong... I prefer PF above summon Phoenix anytime!
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Klaital
Known Hero
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posted July 22, 2006 04:33 PM |
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Only good thing in PF against AI is that it takes some fire off the rest of your army, as the AI attacks the phantom with everything it has until it goes poof. Also when attacking a castle, which is when most major battles seem to happen, PF is about useless as the castle turrets always take it out, and it is VERY unlikely that all three turrets miss it.
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juventas
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 22, 2006 06:37 PM |
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If it's really all about timing, then a player will be able to clone a unit and have it act almost instantly, given that he knows how initiative works. So basically, the argument that your clone will be taken out before it has a chance to act only applies partially (mainly to people who just choose a unit and clone without thinking of initiative, and even then, by chance, that unit may get to act instantly).
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Top-Rob
Hired Hero
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posted July 22, 2006 06:49 PM |
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Indeed. I am definately not the only one here that has PF moreoften than not attack before they go <poof>. Since towers in a siege don't have that much initiative they are rarely a threat.
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scooter_me
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 23, 2006 04:42 PM |
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does frenzy work on phantom forces? that would be a great way to use the spell against the opponent. imagine, 20 6th teir units phantom forced. you cant frenzy, they attack closest unit (which will be their copy) and the retaliation will get rid of fantom forces. he wont be able to cast dispell to quick because he JUST used his hero to cast the phantom forces spell... so give that a try fellas
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DragonLord3000
Known Hero
Romanian flamethrower
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posted September 07, 2006 10:42 PM |
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Ussualy mages cast mirror image and on genies and maybe rakshashas!But genies are not so impossing and though!
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hot peppers are an ilusion.they do not exist.
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lowrez
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 28, 2007 12:51 PM |
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Well, its effectively nerfed now with 1.4/2.0. No more abilities, only 1 copy per stack. too bad cause it was a ton of fun to play with... hehe, can u say clone, gate, clone , gate = 20 stack army...lol. Probably better for balance, but i miss it.
LowReZ
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Fates
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 11, 2007 08:47 PM |
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I dont know what it was, but when Nicolai used it against me in the campaign, his clones got to act instantly, and that was not nice when he had 10k skeleton archers.
Totally overpowered, absolutely no cloning of level 7 creatures, even 6 is a bit iffy for me. 50% incorporeal? bah even worse. Massive nerfs are necessary, like 10-30% of stack created, takes 25/50% more damage, inflicts 25/50% less damage, no unique skills, max tier 5-6.
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TemjinGold
Known Hero
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posted April 11, 2007 09:10 PM |
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Takes 25/50% more damage? Clones already pop with 1 hit point of damage. How can they take any MORE damage?
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted April 13, 2007 05:35 PM |
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I think he doesn't even played with Phantom Forces and starts whinning in here about it being overpowered
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erccmmo
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 29, 2007 05:21 AM |
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I like phantom forces... and no I dont think they are over powered because they are easily countered with a mass effect damage spell.
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Sanyu
Known Hero
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posted April 29, 2007 08:31 AM |
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I know this is so unrelated but if you phantom force wolf, you can get so many stacks of wolves. Imagine attacking with 7 stacks of wolves, then become 14 due to special, then phantom force so on...
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pomo
Famous Hero
The lone peasant
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posted April 29, 2007 09:08 AM |
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I know this is so unrelated but if you phantom force wolf, you can get so many stacks of wolves. Imagine attacking with 7 stacks of wolves, then become 14 due to special, then phantom force so on...
So if you phantom wolves, do you get real wolves from the special? (As in ones that have more than 1 hp I mean, not ones that will stick around after combat)
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Sanyu
Known Hero
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posted April 29, 2007 09:20 AM |
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I know this is so unrelated but if you phantom force wolf, you can get so many stacks of wolves. Imagine attacking with 7 stacks of wolves, then become 14 due to special, then phantom force so on...
So if you phantom wolves, do you get real wolves from the special? (As in ones that have more than 1 hp I mean, not ones that will stick around after combat)
Have never tried it before...
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