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| Thread: Black Dragons immune to all magic? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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eddie1309
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 21, 2006 10:10 PM |
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I'm just playing Dungeon campaign so I thought I'd share :
First of all: WHAT DO YOU WANT??!!?? Guys, there got to be some balance in the game! The Blackies are THE BEST creatures in the game. Other Dungeon units are superb as well, and IN GENERAL (that is, taking all tiers 1-6 all together) far better than Haven, Inferno, Necro and (even) Sylvan units. Plus, with appropriate hero development, they deal even more damage with elemental chains + you get luck to get the ultimate skill so you have much bigger chance for that nice rainbow that brings smile to every players face. Taking all of that into consideration, Warlock is overpowered already. That's why, IMO, it's very good that Irresistible Magic works the way it works on Blackies. I know it doesn't make much sense from the logical point of view, but it's good it is so.
Second of all: If you go through the Skill Wheel ( http://www.celestialheavens.com/viewpage.php?id=520 ) you'll see that to get the ultimate skill it's virtually impossible to get the Basic Destructive Magic skill since you have to take 4 skills and you already start with 2, so there are no slots for DesMag or for any other Basic Magic school for that matter. This leads us to the statement: the creators of the game were NOT thinking of Warlock as a magic wielder. Sorry, guys - I loved the Armageddon as well in HOMM3, but many things have changed and so did this.
On the other hand, if the creators did not want Warlock to be a sorcerer, WHY THE HELL when he levels up more often than not does he receive +1 spellpower??? That is the REAL bug with Warlock, IMO.
Of course, you can expoit that, and MAKE your Warlock a sorcerer, as probably lot of players did (and, frankly, so did I). The empowered spells are made just for that - an alternative to developing your hero. HOWEVER, when you do that, Warlock is STILL overpowered, guys!!! Not only does he have the empowered spells, a skill to regain all mana in 1 day, constant +1 spellpower when leveling up, but the elemental chains work on spells too! And, don't forget Warlock's luck!!!!!!!!!!!
So, IMO, when playing multiplayer? Everybody would take Warlock if the armageddon/Black Dragons combo still worked. Now, you can leave the Irresistible Magic on Basic and go for that old HOMM3 tactic, but it would take much more sense to expoit the powers of the new Warlock to the fullest, i.e. go for the ultimate. Now, I don't have it with my hero, but I'm seeing how much damage do elemental chains inflict ALREADY, and let me tell you, guys, the Armageddon spell, even with 25 spellpower, is nowhere near that gargantuan damage.
So, all in all, the Warlock is kind of a contradiction. The class skill name suggest that he is the magic wielder, but to get the ultimate you cannot get any magic schools skill. That's the way they did it. And we must all deal with it if we want to play Dungeon.
/Quite a poetic and philosophical ending - sorry, I'm in the mood  /
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Gus
Known Hero
Not-So-Bright Crusader
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posted June 21, 2006 11:47 PM |
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well, the Ultimate does not dictate what you should take. Warlocks have Warlock's Luck, Empower Spells, and very high spellpower. That screams "Destructive Magic".
As for Black Dragons, who cares if they're the best? Tone them down if you want, i don't care. BUT, making them so strong with the Magic Immune special, AND THEN forcing you to take a skill that negates that advantage, is a joke, period.
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If Pacman had affected us as kids we'd be running around in dark rooms, munching pills and listening to repetitive music.
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TGeorge
Tavern Dweller
Warlock
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posted June 22, 2006 12:31 AM |
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Edited by TGeorge at 00:32, 22 Jun 2006.
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Quote:
I'm just playing Dungeon campaign so I thought I'd share :
First of all: WHAT DO YOU WANT??!!?? Guys, there got to be some balance in the game! The Blackies are THE BEST creatures in the game. Other Dungeon units are superb as well, and IN GENERAL (that is, taking all tiers 1-6 all together) far better than Haven, Inferno, Necro and (even) Sylvan units. Plus, with appropriate hero development, they deal even more damage with elemental chains + you get luck to get the ultimate skill so you have much bigger chance for that nice rainbow that brings smile to every players face. Taking all of that into consideration, Warlock is overpowered already. That's why, IMO, it's very good that Irresistible Magic works the way it works on Blackies. I know it doesn't make much sense from the logical point of view, but it's good it is so.
Second of all: If you go through the Skill Wheel ( http://www.celestialheavens.com/viewpage.php?id=520 ) you'll see that to get the ultimate skill it's virtually impossible to get the Basic Destructive Magic skill since you have to take 4 skills and you already start with 2, so there are no slots for DesMag or for any other Basic Magic school for that matter. This leads us to the statement: the creators of the game were NOT thinking of Warlock as a magic wielder. Sorry, guys - I loved the Armageddon as well in HOMM3, but many things have changed and so did this.
On the other hand, if the creators did not want Warlock to be a sorcerer, WHY THE HELL when he levels up more often than not does he receive +1 spellpower??? That is the REAL bug with Warlock, IMO.
Of course, you can expoit that, and MAKE your Warlock a sorcerer, as probably lot of players did (and, frankly, so did I). The empowered spells are made just for that - an alternative to developing your hero. HOWEVER, when you do that, Warlock is STILL overpowered, guys!!! Not only does he have the empowered spells, a skill to regain all mana in 1 day, constant +1 spellpower when leveling up, but the elemental chains work on spells too! And, don't forget Warlock's luck!!!!!!!!!!!
So, IMO, when playing multiplayer? Everybody would take Warlock if the armageddon/Black Dragons combo still worked. Now, you can leave the Irresistible Magic on Basic and go for that old HOMM3 tactic, but it would take much more sense to expoit the powers of the new Warlock to the fullest, i.e. go for the ultimate. Now, I don't have it with my hero, but I'm seeing how much damage do elemental chains inflict ALREADY, and let me tell you, guys, the Armageddon spell, even with 25 spellpower, is nowhere near that gargantuan damage.
So, all in all, the Warlock is kind of a contradiction. The class skill name suggest that he is the magic wielder, but to get the ultimate you cannot get any magic schools skill. That's the way they did it. And we must all deal with it if we want to play Dungeon.
/Quite a poetic and philosophical ending - sorry, I'm in the mood /
Even if they are better than other units, dungeon units have lower growth rate (maybe even the lowest). Hmmm...makeing my warlock a sorcerer is an exploit?  . Anyways from what I know u CAN forget Warlocks Luck because it doesn't work on epowered spells, so it's kind of useless because with the proper skills and hero the cost of empowerd spells can be reduced to the cost of normal spells. Also the ultimate skill is very hard to get unless you're very lucky and if you don't manage to get it you will be stuck with some useless skills (Ex: plague tent). I liked Elemental chains better in the beta, now u just attack an element with the opposite element and the elements randomly change after the attack...less strategy more randomness.
In any ways Dungeon is not overpowerd...also I think all castles are quite balanced in H5 .
P.S. U can get a magic school and also get the ultimate skill...for the ultimate skill u use up 5 skill slots and remain with 1 free slot. And if Warlocks shouldn't use magic why do most of the heroes start with a magic school?
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dantares
Hired Hero
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posted June 22, 2006 08:04 AM |
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well, the Ultimate does not dictate what you should take. Warlocks have Warlock's Luck, Empower Spells, and very high spellpower. That screams "Destructive Magic".
As for Black Dragons, who cares if they're the best? Tone them down if you want, i don't care. BUT, making them so strong with the Magic Immune special, AND THEN forcing you to take a skill that negates that advantage, is a joke, period.
That is what I'm saying, it's ok for BD to have lower def, att, hp but to have a special that is totally useless because of a skill you defintely have to take, just seem so STUPID...
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted June 22, 2006 01:06 PM |
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Quote:
I'm just playing Dungeon campaign so I thought I'd share :
First of all: WHAT DO YOU WANT??!!?? Guys, there got to be some balance in the game! The Blackies are THE BEST creatures in the game. Other Dungeon units are superb as well, and IN GENERAL (that is, taking all tiers 1-6 all together) far better than Haven, Inferno, Necro and (even) Sylvan units.
Who cares if they are statisticaly good if their growth completely cripples it? besides, No matter how good blood furies are, they still deal less damage than a weekly population of conscripts. Shadow matriarchs are very crappy, hydras are fun but with 7 initiative and warlock's problems with getting haste they suck - period. The only GREAT creatures are: Lizards and Dragons. And don't forget dungeon's very bard earlygame, which lets you creep slow walkers only (or suffer terrible casualities).
I don't say dungeon is bad, but it annoys me when ppl say dungeon's units are better than others. No, in majority, they are not.
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Gus
Known Hero
Not-So-Bright Crusader
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posted June 22, 2006 01:46 PM |
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No matter how good blood furies are, they still deal less damage than a weekly population of conscripts.
That's wrong, you're not counting the fact the Furies attack 2 to 3 times before the Conscripts move. And the fact thet they don't get retaliated upon. And that they have more Attack. And... 
____________
If Pacman had affected us as kids we'd be running around in dark rooms, munching pills and listening to repetitive music.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted June 22, 2006 01:49 PM |
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yes, forgot the initiative. 
I've taken the attack in consideration.
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Shauku83
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted June 22, 2006 02:19 PM |
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Edited by Shauku83 at 14:20, 22 Jun 2006.
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Why are people like dantares saying that Magic Immunity for Blacks is useless? The opponent cannot cast spells on them. No. They cannot. So Magic Immunity is useless because you cannot cast Armageddon? A really interesting way of thinking things... LOL.
Have you ever thought that there are other players with spells too? Like Frenzy, Puppet Master, Meteor Shower... or even Armageddon Or that every faction has creatues with spells? Just a few packs of Druids can wipe out some Titans and Devils, I'm so happy they don't have any useless abilities like Magic Immunity on them. Or my Frenzied Green Dragons blowing my Master Hunters away, that is fun
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 22, 2006 02:27 PM |
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Quote:
Second of all: If you go through the Skill Wheel ( http://www.celestialheavens.com/viewpage.php?id=520 ) you'll see that to get the ultimate skill it's virtually impossible to get the Basic Destructive Magic skill since you have to take 4 skills and you already start with 2, so there are no slots for DesMag or for any other Basic Magic school for that matter. This leads us to the statement: the creators of the game were NOT thinking of Warlock as a magic wielder. Sorry, guys - I loved the Armageddon as well in HOMM3, but many things have changed and so did this.
On the other hand, if the creators did not want Warlock to be a sorcerer, WHY THE HELL when he levels up more often than not does he receive +1 spellpower??? That is the REAL bug with Warlock, IMO.
Of course, you can expoit that, and MAKE your Warlock a sorcerer, as probably lot of players did (and, frankly, so did I). The empowered spells are made just for that - an alternative to developing your hero. HOWEVER, when you do that, Warlock is STILL overpowered, guys!!! Not only does he have the empowered spells, a skill to regain all mana in 1 day, constant +1 spellpower when leveling up, but the elemental chains work on spells too! And, don't forget Warlock's luck!!!!!!!!!!!
NOT thinking of Warlock as a magic wielder?Ultimate ability does not restrict you nor makes warlocks less magic dependent.WHY THE HELL when he levels up more often than not does he receive +1 spellpower???Why indeed,can't think of ANY SERIOUS reason!NOBODY can!Empowered spells an alternative?Alternative on your BASE skill?Sorry but I can't follow your reasoning.I sincerely hope this was a farce or you were drunk...
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Gus
Known Hero
Not-So-Bright Crusader
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posted June 22, 2006 02:33 PM |
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Why are people like dantares saying that Magic Immunity for Blacks is useless? The opponent cannot cast spells on them. No. They cannot. So Magic Immunity is useless because you cannot cast Armageddon? A really interesting way of thinking things... LOL.
not because of Armageddon. Because you cannot send your Blackies in and follow-up with Meteor Shower or any other AoE spell.
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Just a few packs of Druids can wipe out some Titans and Devils
You'd need to have a lot of Druids and very few Titans/Devils for that to actually happen.
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If Pacman had affected us as kids we'd be running around in dark rooms, munching pills and listening to repetitive music.
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Shauku83
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted June 22, 2006 02:48 PM |
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not because of Armageddon. Because you cannot send your Blackies in and follow-up with Meteor Shower or any other AoE spell.
Well because I can hit my non-infernal troops with Succubus' chain shot, it is useless. It doesn't matter at all that it does vast amount of damage to enemy, but if there is a chance that it can deal damage to my own creatures in some circumstances, I can and will call the Chain Shot useless.
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You'd need to have a lot of Druids and very few Titans/Devils for that to actually happen.
Well pack is 10-19 Druids. The amount of Devils doesn't influence at all the damage done to them by Druids.
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Gus
Known Hero
Not-So-Bright Crusader
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posted June 22, 2006 03:02 PM |
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Edited by Gus at 15:04, 22 Jun 2006.
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Well because I can hit my non-infernal troops with Succubus' chain shot, it is useless.
Ludicrous. But your example is perfect, to shoot down your argumentation: Imagine if Chain-Shot hit Inferno creatures as well. Would it be good? No. Well, that's exactly the problem with your RACIAL skill hurting your EXCLUSIVELY-RACIAL Black Dragon.
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Well pack is 10-19 Druids. The amount of Devils doesn't influence at all the damage done to them by Druids.
No, of course the amount of targets doesn't change the damage, but you mentioned "wiping [them] out".
10 Druids would cast two 154-dmg Lightning Bolts (308 dmg, 1 Titan/Devil)
19 Elder Druids would cast three 255-dmg Lightning Bolts (765 dmg, 4 Titans/Devils)
Not exactly what i call wiping out stacks. Of course it is very good, but you'll find plenty of level 4 creatures able to deal huge damage (Raiders, Griffins...).
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If Pacman had affected us as kids we'd be running around in dark rooms, munching pills and listening to repetitive music.
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Shauku83
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted June 22, 2006 03:26 PM |
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Edited by Shauku83 at 15:38, 22 Jun 2006.
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Ludicrous. But your example is perfect, to shoot down your argumentation: Imagine if Chain-Shot hit Inferno creatures as well. Would it be good? No. Well, that's exactly the problem with your RACIAL skill hurting your EXCLUSIVELY-RACIAL Black Dragon.
I was aiming at the rediculous use of word "useless" with my example, no need to take like they are literally the same thing. Saying something like Magic Immunity is useless because you cannot cast AoE on them, is only one side of the coin. The Blacks are Immune to alot of spells, like all Dark Magick Spells (Frenxy, weakness, decay etc.), opponents Destructive Spells and enemy creature spells. To call Magical Immunity useless on those grounds...that is ludicrous.
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No, of course the amount of targets doesn't change the damage, but you mentioned "wiping [them] out".
10 Druids would cast two 154-dmg Lightning Bolts (308 dmg, 1 Titan/Devil)
19 Elder Druids would cast three 255-dmg Lightning Bolts (765 dmg, 4 Titans/Devils)
Not exactly what i call wiping out stacks. Of course it is very good, but you'll find plenty of level 4 creatures able to deal huge damage (Raiders, Griffins...).
You didn't understand me. I said nothing about wiping them out, as stacks. I said "Just a few packs of Druids can wipe out some Titans and Devils"
A few Packs = 2-3 stacks of 10 - 19 Druids. 2-3 Stacks of 10 Druids already deal 154-damage times 2 or 3, meaning either 308 damage (1 Devil or Titan) or 462-damage (2 Devils ot Titans)
Some being a word inclining some troops, and 1 or 2 Devils is some Devils for sure.
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dantares
Hired Hero
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posted June 22, 2006 03:26 PM |
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Why are people like dantares saying that Magic Immunity for Blacks is useless? The opponent cannot cast spells on them. No. They cannot. So Magic Immunity is useless because you cannot cast Armageddon? A really interesting way of thinking things... LOL.
Have you ever thought that there are other players with spells too? Like Frenzy, Puppet Master, Meteor Shower... or even Armageddon Or that every faction has creatues with spells? Just a few packs of Druids can wipe out some Titans and Devils, I'm so happy they don't have any useless abilities like Magic Immunity on them. Or my Frenzied Green Dragons blowing my Master Hunters away, that is fun
i mean BD have no magic immunity because of the warlocks controlling them, I managed to cast meteor shower (my realag has a spellpower of 38!) and managed to kill the enemies BD and some of mine, so i thought it was stupid...
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Gus
Known Hero
Not-So-Bright Crusader
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posted June 22, 2006 03:45 PM |
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@Shauku
you say things, and when i correct you on them, you say "i did not mean that", or you twist the meaning, like the "some" example.
What's your point? That Druids can kill other creatures? Yeah, they can, fortunately.
As for Magic Immunity, the fact that the only race that gets Magic Immune creatures is also forced to take a skill that partially cancels it, is completely ridiculous. I don't care if the solution is removing the fact that it affects friendlies, or removing Magical Immunity from BDs, but i don't want a skill that i destroy myself.
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If Pacman had affected us as kids we'd be running around in dark rooms, munching pills and listening to repetitive music.
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Shauku83
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted June 22, 2006 04:55 PM |
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Well I apologise, but I certainly ment that it wipes out some creatures. And level 7's are most precious ones, thats why Druids most likely target them. The Druid example was just to show that BD's Magical Immunity is usefull, all other level 7's are subject to the deadly Lightning. Spells are most affective against level 7's, because it doesn't take enemy defence into account.
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What's your point? That Druids can kill other creatures? Yeah, they can, fortunately.
My point was exactly that, there is a creature that they do not kill. Black Dragons. Because it has Magic Immunity. But the Immunity is said to be useless, that is my point. In my vocabulary useless means something altogether different.
I hope that you are aware that your Warlocks Irresistable skill does not aid enemy casters. That affects your Warlocks Destructive spells and them only!
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ZeroXcuses
Known Hero
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posted June 29, 2006 07:14 PM |
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@Shauku
you say things, and when i correct you on them, you say "i did not mean that", or you twist the meaning, like the "some" example.
What's your point? That Druids can kill other creatures? Yeah, they can, fortunately.
As for Magic Immunity, the fact that the only race that gets Magic Immune creatures is also forced to take a skill that partially cancels it, is completely ridiculous. I don't care if the solution is removing the fact that it affects friendlies, or removing Magical Immunity from BDs, but i don't want a skill that i destroy myself.
Then don't cast spells that will hurt you. The magic immunity is used in this game to prevent the enemy from casting on you. A little more vigilance is required now.
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Mlai
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 05, 2007 11:49 PM |
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Edited by Mlai at 23:50, 05 Dec 2007.
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Wow, whining about BDs... I'm loling on the floor now.
OMG I can't cast meteor shower on top of my BD when he's surrounded by enemies WTF it's useless. Am I hearing this right? So now that BD requires a bit more skill to use he's suddenly useless? He can fly across the map in 1 turn and nothing can block him, so the only bad positioning you get would be from your own lack of skillz. How difficult is it to not fly your own dragon into a square where you know you're gonna meteor? Chain shot requires a completely different/higher level of forethought, and even that is easy.
Edit: Oh crap I didn't mean to necro. *Looks at own avvy* Oh maybe I did.
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The_Gootch
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
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posted December 06, 2007 01:26 AM |
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The things we learn over the course of a year...lol @ N00bforge. Furies suck! Conscripts do more damage!
The new king of Armageddon is Fortress. A buddy of mine attacked me with his full Fortress Army; Inga with a 30 spellpower. But the only units he put up to fight were his Flame Lords, Magma Dragons, and Rune Keepers.
I mistakenly thought I would be able to suicide myself in my Castle in a worst case scenario. So I town portalled to the town he was about to attack with my Haven Army. Now I had over 80 Paladins. That sob had Soldier's Luck, tagged me with Marks of Fire, and just freaking nuked me with Armageddons!
My main was a Warlock. How insulting was that? Runes of Elemental Immunity prevented me from being able to use my Implosions and Deep Freezes. Rune of Resurrection was used twice via Greater Rune. Of course my Paladins charged out to meet his Dragons, who had moved right to the middle of the screen to invite me to attack them. Silly me. he measured it perfectly where the Armageddon landed on my Palys' heads! Oh did I get embarrassed.
Oh. Yeah. Btw, I lost this awesome stupendous hero when I decided to Arma suicide, ended up giving him 2 pieces of Sar-Issus. Let me tell you the burn marks I had from those Rune Keepers the 2nd time I met them. He wiped out 2 armies with his one. Unbelieveable.
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mlai
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 06, 2007 05:18 AM |
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Can we see those replays so we can witness the awesome pwnings?
I love the new replay feature. This place should have a replays subforum like many other online multi games.
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