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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Why can't Wraiths Fly?
Thread: Why can't Wraiths Fly? This thread is 4 pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT»
OOPMan
OOPMan


Adventuring Hero
posted June 22, 2006 09:33 AM

Quote:
Wraith's can't fly because they can't think happy thoughts! They lost their magic feather...

Couldn't resist


Hilrious! Truly, that brought a smile to my face :-)

Anyway, as for flying Wraiths...

I think it would be more interesting if they had a completely unique ability, something most other lvl 6's actually seem to have.

Harm Touch is ultimately a little too similar to Vorpal Blade and, furthermore, it's mostly useless except in early battles against very small stacks of high-level toughs.

Maybe some kind of Fear-type ability would be more appropriate?
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law558
law558


Adventuring Hero
posted June 22, 2006 12:18 PM
Edited by law558 at 12:19, 22 Jun 2006.

Quote:
True, but that's also true for (most) 1x1 creatures... perhaps a system in which every tile of obstacle counts double for movement or something (so you use 2 movement points to cross 1 obstacle tile    
Quote:

I like it Thanatos. That would make alot more sense in battles. Small obstacles cost more movement points to cross, large one can only be flew over.

Quote:
 Maybe the Wraith should have a whole new ability: Floating..."Floating gives the Wraith the ability to walk over small obstacles like rocks, but unlike flying creatures they cannot pass over castle walls or other creatures  
Quote:

This would probably make more sense. I think the wraiths should gain this ability, and the ghosts be demoted to it.

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Fuzzier
Fuzzier


Adventuring Hero
posted June 22, 2006 02:22 PM

Why do you want to make Wraiths more powerful? Do you lose the game often playing Necro? And is the reason of losing that Wraiths are not powerful enough?
I can't see the point here.

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OOPMan
OOPMan


Adventuring Hero
posted June 22, 2006 02:38 PM

Well, it would be nice to play Necro in more than one way...

As is both the lvl 6 and lvl 7 are not exactly amazing, the lvl 2 sucks horribly and the lvl 3 is marginal.

Unless I mixed up the Ghost/Spectres as lvl 3 when they're lvl 4, in which case the lvl 4 sucks.

The point is, only Skellies, Vampires and Liches see much play. Everything else is pretty useless or overcosted.

This doesn't give the Necro play many army styles...

At least in H3 you could choose whether or not to play Vampires or Dread Knights. In H5 it just seems like Vampires are the only choice you have when it comes to melee...
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dfortae
dfortae


Known Hero
posted June 23, 2006 04:12 PM

Well, I played several games on the 8 slot map vs the computer on normal (I know, not a big deal) as Necro and had no problems.  In fact, I did the wraith trick of creeping the map of tough neutrals and raising tons of skeletons against the weaker neutrals.  My army comprised of 30+ wraiths, 75+ liches, 4,000 skeletons, and a mix of some Inferno creatures (from another base I captured).

The wraiths acted more often than any of the other units I had and they did a ridiculous amount of damage.  The computer would also target them and I would simply use raise dead to PERMANENTLY get them back (talk about imbalance).  Since they have a high defense compared to lvl 1, 2, 3, etc., you get more bang for your buck with raise dead (since it's JUST based on hit points).

This was ridiculously powerful.  Undead isn't underpowered at all.  One more thing to keep in mind is the dragons are VERY CHEAP for a level 7 creature.  That's part of the balance...
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OOPMan
OOPMan


Adventuring Hero
posted June 23, 2006 04:25 PM

Cheap and crappy ;-)

But then and again, they always have been...
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted June 23, 2006 05:35 PM
Edited by alcibiades at 17:47, 23 Jun 2006.

Well, Spectral Dragons are not THAT crappy I think. They do reasonable damage and have normal attack and defense rating for level 7. They have only 2/3 Hit Points, but you get 3/2 of them, so that levels out, sort of, at least when you get the Animate Dead spell. Of course, in the only Necro game I played so far, I didn't get the Animate Dead spell in any of my four towns (what's the odds of that ...) which of course was a huge disadvantage. I think statistically, the Necros aren't that bad off, but I think OOPMan has a point in saying that in most combats, you will have the Vampires go into melee and have the Liches and Skeletons attack from a distance, and then just hold back all of the other troops in order to save them and let the Vampires self-ressurect. And that's pretty boring game-wise. So from that point of view, it would be nice to have the Necromancer units levelled out a bit.

Some ideas how to make the Necros more varied:

- Let Wraiths float but not fly. Float means it'll pass over obstacles + moat, but not across city walls.
- Give Wraiths Dead Touch ability to kill 10 % of their numbers rather than harm touch.
- Nerf Vampires by making Life Drain an activated ability where they do less damage than regular attack, but may perhaps resurrect 100 %. To balance this, make them do better damage on regular attack, so that they become better melee units.
- Make Ghosts faster and change their abilities, to make them more usefull. The Incorporeal ability might have looked like a good idea on paper, but in real game, it's to random - one succesfull hit, and they are decimated.
- Give Spectral Dragons some sort of more usefull Incorporeal ability (for instance, give them 50 % damage reduction against none-magical attacks instead of 50 % miss chance), increase damage and Hit Points, make them faster, and make them come at only 2/week.
- Do something with the Zombies ... make them not useless!
- Nerf Necromancy skill, so that Skeletons doesn't come by the thousands. When Necros get's insanely many skeletons, all other units have to be more or less crap to keep up the balance, which destroys gameplay.

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law558
law558


Adventuring Hero
posted June 25, 2006 06:47 PM

Quote:
Well, Spectral Dragons are not THAT crappy I think. They do reasonable damage and have normal attack and defense rating for level 7. They have only 2/3 Hit Points, but you get 3/2 of them, so that levels out, sort of, at least when you get the Animate Dead spell. Of course, in the only Necro game I played so far, I didn't get the Animate Dead spell in any of my four towns (what's the odds of that ...) which of course was a huge disadvantage. I think statistically, the Necros aren't that bad off, but I think OOPMan has a point in saying that in most combats, you will have the Vampires go into melee and have the Liches and Skeletons attack from a distance, and then just hold back all of the other troops in order to save them and let the Vampires self-ressurect. And that's pretty boring game-wise. So from that point of view, it would be nice to have the Necromancer units levelled out a bit.

Some ideas how to make the Necros more varied:

- Let Wraiths float but not fly. Float means it'll pass over obstacles + moat, but not across city walls.
- Give Wraiths Dead Touch ability to kill 10 % of their numbers rather than harm touch.
- Nerf Vampires by making Life Drain an activated ability where they do less damage than regular attack, but may perhaps resurrect 100 %. To balance this, make them do better damage on regular attack, so that they become better melee units.
- Make Ghosts faster and change their abilities, to make them more usefull. The Incorporeal ability might have looked like a good idea on paper, but in real game, it's to random - one succesfull hit, and they are decimated.
- Give Spectral Dragons some sort of more usefull Incorporeal ability (for instance, give them 50 % damage reduction against none-magical attacks instead of 50 % miss chance), increase damage and Hit Points, make them faster, and make them come at only 2/week.
- Do something with the Zombies ... make them not useless!
- Nerf Necromancy skill, so that Skeletons doesn't come by the thousands. When Necros get's insanely many skeletons, all other units have to be more or less crap to keep up the balance, which destroys gameplay.


I'd agree with most of your changes, except the zombies and the ghosts should stay the same, as every faction has a couple of useless creatures, and the undead would be too overpowered if every unit was useful.

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Andmcmuffin2
Andmcmuffin2


Hired Hero
In need of Undead Avatar
posted June 26, 2006 07:09 PM

Quote:
Well, it would be nice to play Necro in more than one way...

As is both the lvl 6 and lvl 7 are not exactly amazing, the lvl 2 sucks horribly and the lvl 3 is marginal.

Unless I mixed up the Ghost/Spectres as lvl 3 when they're lvl 4, in which case the lvl 4 sucks.

The point is, only Skellies, Vampires and Liches see much play. Everything else is pretty useless or overcosted.

This doesn't give the Necro play many army styles...

At least in H3 you could choose whether or not to play Vampires or Dread Knights. In H5 it just seems like Vampires are the only choice you have when it comes to melee...


Necro rocks, you just need to use them in combos e.g. Endurance/ghost
teleport or haste/plague zombie or my favorite: use plague zombies to block enemy ranged attacks and hit their lvl 6/7's with wraiths. use vampires to massacre their lvl. 1/2's and the spectre dragons should finish them off. Still- wraiths should fly or have a ability similar to incorporeal that allows them to dodge parts of physical attacks.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted June 26, 2006 07:38 PM

The problem with necro level 7 unit isn't it's performance (which is bad, but not terrible). it's their price - the dwelling price. It's stupid that I can get angels on any map on week3 (some gold on the map + several days of not buying anything with capitol built and bam, there you go) and let them grow in numbers until I'll have the cash to buy them while I can't do it with boners bcuz the dwelling costs many different resources, which are generated at random and you can be quite f*cked up for long when there will be no mercury pile close.. I think bone dragon dwelling should be cheap and the upgrade can be expensive IF spectrals will get improved some way. Although it has to be done carefully, since it can destroy the balance.. ~~

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Andmcmuffin2
Andmcmuffin2


Hired Hero
In need of Undead Avatar
posted June 26, 2006 07:41 PM

Quote:
The problem with necro level 7 unit isn't it's performance (which is bad, but not terrible). it's their price - the dwelling price. It's stupid that I can get angels on any map on week3 (some gold on the map + several days of not buying anything with capitol built and bam, there you go) and let them grow in numbers until I'll have the cash to buy them while I can't do it with boners bcuz the dwelling costs many different resources, which are generated at random and you can be quite f*cked up for long when there will be no mercury pile close.. I think bone dragon dwelling should be cheap and the upgrade can be expensive IF spectrals will get improved some way. Although it has to be done carefully, since it can destroy the balance.. ~~
that's why with any town other than the capitol building I go for the resource silo early on.
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ZeroXcuses
ZeroXcuses


Known Hero
posted June 29, 2006 08:11 PM

Quote:
Well, Spectral Dragons are not THAT crappy I think. They do reasonable damage and have normal attack and defense rating for level 7. They have only 2/3 Hit Points, but you get 3/2 of them, so that levels out, sort of, at least when you get the Animate Dead spell. Of course, in the only Necro game I played so far, I didn't get the Animate Dead spell in any of my four towns (what's the odds of that ...) which of course was a huge disadvantage. I think statistically, the Necros aren't that bad off, but I think OOPMan has a point in saying that in most combats, you will have the Vampires go into melee and have the Liches and Skeletons attack from a distance, and then just hold back all of the other troops in order to save them and let the Vampires self-ressurect. And that's pretty boring game-wise. So from that point of view, it would be nice to have the Necromancer units levelled out a bit.quote]

Negative. You'll use similar defensive tactics with Academy and Sylvan. I guess the whole game is boring, eh?

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SuperDave9x19
SuperDave9x19


Adventuring Hero
posted June 29, 2006 08:40 PM

Quote:
Maybe the Wraith should have a whole new ability: Floating..."Floating gives the Wraith the ability to walk over small obstacles like rocks, but unlike flying creatures they cannot pass over castle walls or other creatures" .


well thought out.

Best solution yet.

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Klaital
Klaital


Known Hero
posted July 05, 2006 12:35 PM

I think main reason why wraiths don't fly is that necro already has 3 fliers and 2 shooters, it would be a bit over the top to give them fourth flier too. Compare to for example inferno that has one flier and one shooter.
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lucybear
lucybear

Tavern Dweller
posted August 06, 2009 01:46 PM

cheats

Ahhhh hi I dont know if anyone still uses this site at all as the last post I think was in 2006 but anyway here goes.  I just wanted to know if one is able to activate the cheats regarding add_army etc on heroes 5 gold edition Ive put everything in the correct positions as far as files are concerned.  When I press the tild hey the thing comes down and when you add_army 4, 1 nothing happens or whatever the army selection is for the castle.  Is there something I should be doing before adding army etc?
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted August 06, 2009 01:55 PM

You had to resurrect a 3+ year old thread for that..? Try the modder's workshop, maybe they know there.
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Cepheus
Cepheus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
posted August 06, 2009 02:33 PM

Assuming you've enabled everything else, try something like add_army 1, 1, 1 and see what happens, then experiment from there.  You need three values to get it working, not two (to determine faction, creature IDs and upgrade level).
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"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII

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lucybear
lucybear

Tavern Dweller
posted August 06, 2009 02:49 PM

cheats

Hi and thanks for your help, I will give it ago however Im not sure by what enable everything else, is there something other than what was in the cheat thingy directions I dont know about?  Another question is the hero meant to be in or out of the castle when adding army?  Perhaps the heroes troups are to be divided before adding army?  Hmmmmmm this is more fun I guess than playing straight.  Just kidding.

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Cepheus
Cepheus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
posted August 06, 2009 03:02 PM

The cheating guide tells you everything you need, I enabled the whole thing myself yesterday.  If you followed those steps you will be absolutely fine.  You said the console shows up as normal so I think you're okay.  Your only mistake, I guess, was using two numbers for add_army instead of three.

One More Thing - make sure you've typed "enable_cheats" into the console, or they probably won't work.
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"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII

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Nirual
Nirual


Famous Hero
Imbued Ballista
posted August 06, 2009 03:39 PM

Aren't those cheats disabled if you got anything higher than patch 1.2?
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