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kookastar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted June 21, 2006 11:02 AM |
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Supermarket or Independent?
Everyday independent stores and businesses are bankrupted through the ever expanding and dominating ‘supermarkets’. In Australia this is controlled by mainly two chains, Coles and Woolworths, who are now expanding rapidly in to as many different services as they can. Petrol, alcohol, and their ‘generic brands’. They now control 62% of milk sales.
I travel to Tasmania, a lowly populated island state, annually. In the last few years I have noticed the take over of the Woolworths chain and the disappearance of independently run stores. Large cement buildings surrounded by carparks are beginning to suck the life out of federation buildings whose stone walls were stacked by hand, and in which generations of families have provided for their customers.
The ‘big’ food chains are also baring their arches and buckets, while ‘takeaways’ lay off their workers. The character of the place is changing. The lives of people are changing. Owner operators unemployed or working for those that stole their livelihoods for minimum wage.
‘Australian made and own’ products are being removed from shelves to provide for the generic brands, the cheaper prices luring and seducing consumers.
Thinking of this I am reminded of 1984 (the book not the year, although it was a good year  ). Perhaps the universal companies of the future will not be government controlled, but eventually will control the governments. A bland blanket of uniformity and familiarity replacing the individual, as we become more antisocial and demand ‘efficiency’ of service.
So, where do you shop? Supermarket or Independent? Do you go to the butcher, the fruit shop, the baker? Do you by local brands? Do you support small businesses? Or what drives you? How do you think your world will look in 20 years?
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Cabranth
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 21, 2006 03:15 PM |
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Hello.
Hey, Kook. I know exactly what you mean. I have watched the same devolution from polyculture to monoculture in mercantile establishments here in the U.S.
Wal-Mart is the biggest culprit here, but not the only one.
While there are not too many options open to me, I do manage to make most of my PC-related purchases at a locally owned computer store. Also I buy most of my music at a local New & Used CD store, and I am a regular customer of several local Used Book stores.
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russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted June 21, 2006 05:29 PM |
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Edited by russ at 20:12, 21 Jun 2006.
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I do a little bit of all. The best meats (and usually the cheapest) are at the butcher shops, the best cakes are at the bakeries, some convenience stores have very good deals on fruits, so I buy there. If I need a food for a week or two, I'll go to a supermarket.
If a convenience store has overpriced milk that's 2-3x more expensive than at the supermarket, or something else that's overpriced, I'll NEVER go to that store again out of general principle. I just don't want to help the greedy store owners. If they don't know how to run their business, they shouldn't be in business in the first place.
Anyways, this is how things are in the 3 cities I've lived in in Canada. There really isn't a problem with small stores. They coexist with the big ones and successfully compete with each other. Each of them has their advantages. If the small stores can't compete because they are too ovepriced or smth like that - too bad.
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Iris
Responsible
Supreme Hero
of Typos
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posted June 21, 2006 07:00 PM |
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We don't really have independent stores where I live. Or maybe we do, and I just don't know about them. Which means they are probably relatively rare. Anyway, we usually just go to the supermarket for convenient's sake so that we get all our shopping done in one place, even if stuff might be a little expensive than buying them separately. A few cents will add up, but I think time is more important.
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Arvon
Hired Hero
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posted June 21, 2006 07:59 PM |
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Usually price and quailty. This means the larger stores. Food produce don't move as fast in a Mom and Pop as they do in the megastore. In dry goods I sometimes shop in the smaller stores 'cause they have a more unusual selection. The majors don't usually carry the off the wall products.
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 If idiots grew on trees, this place would be an orchard.
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TnT_Addict
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Beautiful Liar
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posted June 21, 2006 08:11 PM |
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Listen close people...
Well I myself am very familiar with the food industry and its marketing procedures. I happen to work in a warehouse that supplies food products like flour, sugar and all sorts of canned foods. This place was very successful since 1970 when my boss nowadays and his father had only one truck and did all the routes themselves, but when in the mid 90's 2 of Israels largest food stores chains first appeared he had lost a large part of his clients. They are calling the shots now, setting some outrageously low prices especialy on sugar to attract the independent store owners to buy products from them and not from our warehouse, there is not even one day that I don't see my boss weeping at some point  complaining about the little work that is left for him.
Believe me people when I say that jews like to trade and sell, sitting on your *** and counting the greens that you have earned beats the hell of working for a living, now doesn't it? That thing makes me sick, you should see the faces on some of those owners that I have to deal on a regular daily basis, we have independent shops almost every 200 meters, varying from really small ones that stink from old smell and sweat to normal and friendly sized ones and then the big stores. The 2 big ones in Israel are called "half the price" and "Mega", nothing is half the price in Israel, all is very pricey compared to other countries although we make good money in our jobs.
Of course that I will not drive for 10 minutes every time that I need something to drink or a snack to chew on. Only in the radius of 100 meters from my house I have 3 stores placed at an equal distance but I shop only in one of them with the 2 most nicest owners, but when I need to really fill my fridge (which rarely happens in a 2 persons house) I drive to "half the price" in the idusterial district and buy me a trunk load of junk food and lots of fresh fish, I'm a fish addict also .
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okiesolidarity
Known Hero
right brain/left brain wizard
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posted June 21, 2006 09:35 PM |
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I'll admit I usually hit supermarkets for food, largely because a lot of the smaller places don't offer as good a price, and I am not exactly raking in the dough. In addition, I had a little wake-up call from working on a produce farm and doing farmers' markets for a summmer.
My cost of groceries that summer was next to nill, because we got almost all of our produce from farm, and my roommate was a vegan (he also worked at the farm). It was a small organic farm in upstate new york, and gave us the best vegetables I have ever eaten (maybe it had something to do with the fact that I spent 5 days a week in the fields tending to all of it). Whatever the case, I highly recommend growing your own garden for vegetables if you have the space and time.
My boss, however, was a fool, and an *** to boot (I'm pretty sure he fried his brain on coke in the early 80's). I gained a greater understanding of the BS trendiness that is label of the "small organic farm". Just because the place is small and earth-friendly doesn't mean that the workers get treated any better. We got paid poorly, and were told not to ask the two Guatemalans (Jose and Carmen) who worked there how much they were paid, though I'm sure it was even less. Jose and Carmen didn't know much English (Jose knew a little more, because he had been working for our boss for the past 5 summers). Instead of learning any spanish, our boss just yelled and pointed (I am still wondering how he was able to comminicate to them that he wanted them to work for him). I hadn't known any spanish before working on the farm (and I still know very litte), but over the summer my boss started asking me to translate his orders to Jose and Carmen, because I had already learned more than he had, after a couple of weeks of working with them.
Jose and Carmen, of course, didn't get days off. They were at the farm before I was and left after I left (and I worked 7-5 weekdays). On Saturdays, when I drove the truck hours away to a yuppier county to set up one of our market stands, the two of them were still toiling away in the fields. I, on the other hand, had the role of playing pretty-faced college boy, who sold our produce to the rich folk who had jobs in New York City but didn't want to live near racial minorities so they moved to a suburbia that was still an easy commute. All these people knew was the buzz word: "organic", and we were told to milk up whatever story it took to convince them to buy as much as possible of our ridiculously-priced produce (I know I couldn't have afforded to buy our produce if I didn't get it for free).
For all this effort, a little over 60 hours of work a week, I made around $300 in an average week. I'm pretty sure that Jose and Carmen made about the same, though they worked at least 90 hrs in an average week. Our boss made somewhere between $4000-6000/week off of the markets (there were 3 that we ran each Saturday), which weren't even his primary source of business (most of his money was through orders from fancy yuppy restaurants, who also drooled over the word organic). Did I mention that for all of this, he almost never worked in the field or warehouse, and when he did he usually made a mess of things that he would then blame me for (if Jose and Carmen weren't around).
The salt in the wound was when we'd have to do special things around his house because he was having a dinner party with some of his frou-frou friends and he needed us to go to his special warehouse and bring over some of his expensive imported wines, cheeses, etc. He tried to "keep it real" once in a while by telling us about how he was a punk in the 80's and went to a bunch of ramones, joy division, and mission of burma shows. One time he even met us at the bar and bought my roommate and me TWO rounds of drinks. My first day of work, a market day that he showed me through, he gave me a beer from his 6-pack (that he guzzled the rest of while driving us there, at 5:00am).
Granted, not every small business is like this (I pray that the majority of them aren't). There are plenty of great independent stores that I shop at regularly. But just because a place is small doesn't mean that the owners are any better...do your homework first.
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kookastar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted June 21, 2006 09:49 PM |
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Thank you for sharing your story okie, I too have worked long hours for little. Farmers supply goods to both small and large businesses however, and this kind of work is always hard and underpaid. That is another story I could whine about for hours
I have been on the verge of bankrupcy before, so do understand what it is like to have no money (and big debt), but now that I do not have to watch every penny I make an effort to support small business or at least locally made/owned produce. I now pay more for most groceries (that I get from supermarkets too - tinned goods, household stuff, etc) to buy Australian. I don't really think it will make much difference in the long run, these products are slowly disappearing, but I feel better for it.
I also like talking to the shop assistants (at supermarkets too), I hate the way people today just pretend they are robots, moan and groan because they have to wait 2 min to be served (my husband sometimes does this ), or just gaze through them like they are invisible. They are people, and the more people you can make smile in a day the better you will feel. Promise.
Anyway, what was I going on about?
Need coffee
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted June 22, 2006 01:29 AM |
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This is something that really bothers me. In the US, independent stores have just about disappeared for many types of stores. And the ones that haven't been hit yet are showing signs of disappearing.
It really bothers me, but at the same time I contribute to the problem by my choice of where to buy. We all find out how strong our convictions are when we must choose between ideals and personal finance.....between supporting independent retailers, or cheaper prices. Every time we spend our money, we are casting a vote.
I would guess that 90% of the money I spend goes to large chains. I don't have much choice because that's all there is, at least within a reasonable distance. If I have a choice, I'm willing to pay a little more to buy from, and support, the independent store or restaurant. The only two things I can think of that I buy mostly from local retailers (or Ebay) are books and music CDs. Just about everything else I get from chains. Service type businesses are also mostly still local.
Oh hell, I started to write one of my long essays concerning economics and other dry subjects, but I deleted it. The more I thought about it, the more it became almost an emotional issue. Maybe because I'm older and remember how it used to be and seen all the changes over the last 30-40 years.
The bottom line is that there's something missing, something important. When I grew up, ALL businesses were local "mom and pop" businesses...unless I wanted to drive 10-20 miles to a department store. I moved back to my home town six years ago. The corn fields are replaced by fancy suburban yuppie houses, replaced by parking lots and malls. When I learned to drive I could almost pull out onto the main road without even looking....now I have to wait forever to find an opening. The wetlands have been drained and the streams diverted to underground pipes. 100 year old oak and maple trees have been chopped down to widen roads to carry the traffic for the mall. Everything looks prefab and impersonal...and frankly, it's ugly as hell. And for what? So a bunch of yuppies have the "convenience" of a local mall or a freakin Wall-Mart.
Even in the "new world" of the Americas (and I assume Australia as well), many of the buildings are old enough to have some character. They might not be as old as other parts of the world, but at least they are real buildings made to last...made with real carpentry and masonry.
What's the cost of a little cheaper prices or shorter driving distance? The cost is the loss of good land to be replaced by acres and acres of asphalt and a steal beam structure with an ugly prefabricated shell. The cost is a huge warehouse-like building with hundreds of fluorescent lights and complete strangers working there...whom you will probably never see again. The cost is the loss of the local store, in a building that has some character.
The cost is the loss of that personal feel when you open the door and the little bells jingle to announce a customer has entered...and the clerk is someone you know who greets you with a smile.
As I was writing this I got a call from the store I went to yesterday. I sat at the counter of the plumbing supply store talking to the guy for half an hour trying to find a part. It was late in the day, but he took my phone number and said he'd call his supplier tomorrow, then call me back. And he kept his word. You will NEVER get that kind of service from the big chains. You will NEVER see a lifelong master of his/her trade working at a Wall-Mart. I assume this store is more expensive than the big chains, but service and knowledge have a definite value, even if you can't put a dollar figure to it. If they weren't so far away, a place like this would get ALL my business.
The more I thought about this, the more I realized it's more than just a dry economic discussion. It's about the loss of something fundamental to our societies, something that's been around since the beginning of civilization. It's about the structure of our society, and the structure of our towns and cities. It's about the use of land and the aesthetics of buildings. It's about what's pleasing to look at vs just plain ugly. It's about the value of personal relationships and the knowledge gained through years of experience.
As I said, every time we spend our money we cast a vote. We cast our vote on how we want a major portion of our society to be. The vote of the almighty dollar probably even carries more weight than the vote at the election place.
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Trogdor
Legendary Hero
Words in a custom title
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posted June 22, 2006 12:16 PM |
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Too many people are brand savy these. It's like people who are forking out more dosh for a well known brand. A supermarket is just a supermarket, even though almost all of the time I shop at Woollies.
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"Through the power of the dollar you can communicate with the dead." - Artu
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kookastar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted June 22, 2006 12:50 PM |
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Brand savy? I guess I need to clarify what you mean by this. And I guess the reasons for buying the 'brand' are the point of this thread. Who do the brands support? What do they stand for?
A supermarket is just a supermarket. Yes 
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okiesolidarity
Known Hero
right brain/left brain wizard
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posted June 22, 2006 07:15 PM |
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If I can clarify for my story, I didn't mind the long hours of physical labor for crappy pay. Working on a farm was one of the most gratifying experiences I've been a part of. Going back from day to day and seeing everything grow, knowing that I played a part in the whole process, almost felt like I was raising millions of babies.
What soured it was the fact that our boss was, for lack of a better word, evil. Despite the fact that it was a small farm, it didn't have any of that feeling of working for a man who was at all venerable. He didn't "love the land", or even know that much about farming (he hired a field manager to do that stuff, and paid him poorly, too). So, despite the fact that we were a small, independent farm (6 workers for a little over 30 acres), I didn't get any sense that our boss was any better than one you might find at a 10,000 acre farm.
What he could do - the only thing he could do - was deal with customers in the courteous, "spend the extra money to support small business" sort of way. While other farms around us did poorly, our farm did amazingly well, because he was fantastic at roping customers into believing that they were doing the "right thing" by buying his locally grown, organic produce. He would make up BS stories about how he "popped a couple of the sweet peas while picking them this morning" or how he hand-picked all of the squash blossoms himself. He rarely did anything on the fields, yet had all of these customers convinced that he may has well have done everything on the farm himself (as i said before, he was a dunce, and usually screwed everything up when he got involved in the fields, so we were pretty thankful that he didn't, for the most part).
Forget the fact that, under his orders, we broke the rules on what constitutes organic farming (I quickly lost the argument with him over whether or not we should soak the tomatoes in bleach solution). While we were working in the fields, he was usually hanging out at his huge estate, drinking espresso (from his espresso machine) and watching tv. The farm workers didn't make much money - it was very clear that HE DID.
So yes, i got sour after a while, when I figured out I was working for a devil of a man, who had almost made me do a complete 180 on my opinion of smaller, independent stores. For the first couple of months, I could push it aside because I really loved the work we were doing. It just ate away at me, though, at how much this man was suckering everyone around him that he was just a simple farmer who owned a little farm and worked hard to grow vegetables for the people. I realized that just about any small business could pull this off; all the business owner has to care about is the opinion of the consumer - not the laborer...and when the costumer sings the praises of your boss, telling them that he is actually a tyrant kinda feels like telling a kid there is no santa claus (except you don't get fired for that).
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friendofgunnar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
able to speed up time
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posted June 22, 2006 08:08 PM |
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This is kind of a digression from the Supermarket versus local topic but...
The way I see it, I'm willing to pay an extra 20% for groceries that are pesticide and chemical free. I like eggs that come from happy chickens too. The "Fair Trade" sticker that I see I take into consideration too.
The problem is though that whenever I see these things a lot of the time there's this outrageous mark-up. Sometimes it's like 250% above what a normal supermarket would carry. I mean come on, these people have to be more realistic about how the market is going to look at their products.
As far as the supermarket/local thing goes it seems inevitable.
A lot of people associate this trend with the horrors of suburbanization but I've seen a lot of circumstances where these chain stores can fit in nicely in urban settings, which I do not completely disapprove of.
The way I see it the mom and pops can always find some other economic niche to explore if they can't compete with the chains.(In my setting, which is an urban one, there's a lot of independents who have managed to survive because the family can put in long hours at the cash register which beats the corporate labor pay-out)
It's interesting I've seen this in every foreign country that I've gone to also, it seems like a global phenomenon.
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted June 23, 2006 11:27 AM |
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Here's another aspect of this I never even considered until I read a newspaper article this morning.
Apparently some of the farm animal breeds are actually becoming endangered. Since they are entirely domesticated breeds, they depend entirely on man to keep the breed alive. Some of the very old breeds just aren't suitable for modern high volume farming. They were bred for flavor and were mostly open range animals. They don't have the size and weight as modern breeds, and also can't survive in modern closed-in pens.
It wasn't in the article, but I have to assume the same is true for plant foods as well.
BTW Okie, I also worked on a small organic farm for a summer...sort of. It was 86 acres and about half of that was hay. They also had some pigs and cattle. They only had 8 acres of vegetable crops which was set up as a u-pick-it. I didn't do any actual farming, but worked on the equipment and irrigation system. The only tractor I drove was for the hay rake.
I also worked in the food processing industry for two years. Or maybe I should say I worked for a company who made the equipment used in food processing. Since I did field service, I spent much of my time out at the processing plants.
One aspect that us field service people tried to ignore was that the machines we installed and serviced replaced human labor with a machine. Like every other business, the companies want to become more efficient and cheaper....and labor is expensive. You might be surprised how much technology is used in food processing. The machine I worked on had 15 microprocessors and it was a relatively small machine.
We had a company (Dole) make a big purchase of ten machines. We finished installing the machines on a Friday and brought them on-line on Monday. In the parking lot there were maybe 30 cars on Friday and only 5 on Monday. That kind of freaked me out. The same would have been true for second shift. Some of those people went to other buildings, but many lost their jobs. Most of these plants are out in farm country in small towns. A big processing plant probably has the only decent paying jobs in town for unskilled labor. So the loss of those jobs likely impacted the entire town.
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