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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Heroes 4 features to come back
Thread: Heroes 4 features to come back [ This thread is 10 pages long: (1) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ]
rpgguy
rpgguy


Adventuring Hero
Scholar
posted June 26, 2006 08:27 AM bonus applied.
Edited by alcibiades at 15:40, 21 Apr 2007.

Poll Question:
Heroes 4 features to come back

ok we all know heroes 4 was a big disapointment to most people but now that heroes 5 is out almost all the ideas of heroes 4 has disapeared.
its time for you to decide if this was a good decision or maby they should have kept some of the nice heroes 4 features.

which one of the heroes 4 features do you miss the most?

Responses:
Moving creatures without heroes
Caravans
Daily growth of creatures
The master and grandmaster skill ranks
Heroes fight and can be killed in battles
Flaging weekly generators (like waterwheels) deliver resources
Retaliation happens at the same time as attacking
Creatures can not be upgraded
Making Choices of which creatures to build at your castle (i.e hydra or black dragon)
Nothing! heroes 4 was terrible in all aspects
View Results!

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Lith-Maethor
Lith-Maethor


Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
posted June 26, 2006 09:55 AM
Edited by Lith-Maethor at 11:36, 26 Jun 2006.

great poll!

Moving creatures without heroes - the one that got my vote, but it was a hard call...
Caravans - also a canditate for my vote, I want them back
Daily growth of creatures - indifferent
The master and grandmaster skill ranks - indifferent
Heroes fight and can be killed in battles - I prefer the current system
Flaging weekly generators (like waterwheels) deliver resources - yes please!
Retaliation happens at the same time as attacking - could go either way really...
Creatures can not be upgraded - if only we went the way of HoMM2
Making Choices of which creatures to build at your castle - could go either way
Additional Artifact slots - yes please!
____________
Dreams of Darkness nWoD IRC Chronicle, set in Edinburgh

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alcibiades
alcibiades

Hero of Order
and Light
posted June 26, 2006 10:58 AM
Edited by alcibiades at 10:58, 26 Jun 2006.

Yes, this is a good poll. Heroes 4 was pretty bad, but still, there were a couple of good things to it, so why not at least learn by mistake and include those. I voted Flagging Weekly Generators, because I HATE micromanagement, and I find it incredibly stupid that you have to have secondary heroes and spend time on running back and forth and back and forth for those 1000 Gold. However, I have some comments to several of them:


Moving creatures without heroes: This was another very good thing of Heroes IV. It's not my top priority, but it did come very handy on a lot of occasions - like when creatures joined you.

Caravans: Yes, the caravans was another good thing. Again, it cuts down micromanagement, and it does make sense now they removed town portal. But better yet, bring back town portal ...

Daily growth of creatures: No! I hated this. I much prefer the classical Heroes way with creature growth every seventh day.

The master and grandmaster skill ranks: Hmmm - I liked the Heroes IV skill system a lot, but I'll say no, for two reasons - skills are detailed enough as they are, and you will need too many levels to ever max your skills out. It's bad enough as it is now, really, where you'll need close to 30 levels to reach ultimate abilities (if you even bother to go for them).

Heroes fight and can be killed in battles: Noooooo ... Horrible, absolutely horrible. Possibly the second worst feature of Heroes IV.

Flaging weekly generators (like waterwheels) deliver resources: YES! No more micromanagement, please!

Retaliation happens at the same time as attacking: No thank you. More realistic, perhaps, but makes the planning of tactics in game much less important, which removes a lot of the fun.

Creatures cannot be upgraded: Nooooooooooooooooooooooo ... The single worst feature of Heroes IV!!! Game was just sooo boring without creature upgrades, and it removed a huge and important dimension of gameplay, which was deciding whether to focus on new troops, or upgrade excisting.

Making Choices of which creatures to build at your castle: Hmmm, perhaps. Two weeks ago, I'd have said no, but we talked about this in the other forum, and now I say, yes, for some creatures. More creatures are always fun, and sometimes, it can add another level of tactics when you can decide whether you want to go for the more offensive or more deffensive unit. However, this has to be invoked very carefully: The creatures should be ballanced (that is, do not put up an offensive caster/shooter vs. a deffensive walker) and one should have the possibility to demolish building to make the other choice when cities were captured, for instance.

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rpgguy
rpgguy


Adventuring Hero
Scholar
posted June 26, 2006 11:25 AM
Edited by rpgguy at 11:37, 26 Jun 2006.

thanks for elaborating your thoughts, here are mine:

Moving creatures without heroes: i think this is good but the main problem is its very time consuming becuase the computer and hotseat turns becomes very long - this needs to be fix somehow before implemented back.

Caravans: most important feature that got my vote.

Daily growth of creatures: i actualy like this, waiting besides your castle at the end of each weak so you can start chaining heroes is tiresome and capturing enemy towns at the 7th day for creatures before the enemy buys them strategy is stupid.

The master and grandmaster skill ranks: this can be a good thing only if they realy put some thought into it - i think it could be realy cool if you can get grandmaster with a skill and gain 5 abilities of it (3 standard and 2 racial) through grandmastery.

Heroes fight and can be killed in battles: no i dont want that feature back the way it is now is quite good.

Flaging weekly generators (like waterwheels) deliver resources: of course!!! how could they take it back?!?!?!?

Retaliation happens at the same time as attacking: i think they should make it an option that you can turn this on/off but that will probably not happen so no - leave it the way it is.

Creatures cannot be upgraded: upgrading is fun, keep it the way it is.

Making Choices of which creatures to build at your castle:
i dont like this - let me build all my creatures please.

also i'dd like to add some features that i couldnt get in the poll (10 options max):

Neutral creatures move and guard mines and treasures:
i dont like this feature but it was optional so it was a good thing.

Return the item slots that wear removed:
yes bring them back!!! i want a place for my arrows and my endless bag of gold!!!

The castle battle and the war machines:
heroes 4 castle battle was terrible!!! the way it is now is excellent.

feel free to remind & add features that were taken back (and your opinions of course).
____________
Week Of The Rabbit
Triple Growth For All Creatures

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Forestmaster
Forestmaster


Hired Hero
Also known as poison master...
posted June 26, 2006 01:06 PM

Moving creatures! I also liked caravans and the towers in the castle.

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alcibiades
alcibiades

Hero of Order
and Light
posted June 26, 2006 01:28 PM

Good thoughts RPGGuy!

I would like to give some additional thought to one of your points - the thing with the skill system. I think what would make sense was a more ellaborate skill system, that relates more to each type of Hero and what his strong sides are.

You might be familiar with my ideas on a slightly modified magical system I posted in the Alter Of Wishes forum, where each class was related to three magical schools, and was opposed to the fourth. That was basically very much Heroes IV, but the idea was, that this would relate to the ability choices the hero would have to this class.

To elaborate this, consider this thought:

- Each class has 4 skills that are his "natural skills" - this will be his class-skill (artificer, necromancy etc) plus three other skills. For the knight, these might be Counterstrike, Leadership, Deffense and Logistics, while the Warlock might have Irresistable Magic, Destructive Magic, Sorcery and Luck. The skills each class will have will relate to it's strong sides - thus, spellcasting classes will typically have skills like a school of magic, sorcery or enlightenment whereas might classes will have skills like attack, deffense or leadership. These classes will be the ones to contribute to his Ultimate Ability.

- The Hero will be able to reach a higher level in these skills - Master level perhaps - and will be able to gain 4 abilities in these classes. The Hero will be able to achieve Grandmaster status in his class-ability and might gain 4 + 1 abilities in this class, the last being the ultimate ability.

- The Hero will only be able to obtain Expert level and 3 abilities in skills normally related to his class - that is, neither favored nor opposed. Consider the Knight (favored classes Counterstrike, Leadership, Deffense and Logistics). The Knight might obtain Expert level in Attack, War Machines, Luck, Light Magic, Summoning Magic, Destructive Magic and Enlightenment, which are all classes relevant for the knights cause.

- The Hero will only be able to obtain Advanced level and 2 abilities in skills opposed to his cause. For the Knight, one might say that Sorcery and Dark Magic are skills that are too far from the core philosophy of the Knight and the Haven faction, and therefore, the Knight will only be able to obtain limited mastery of these skills. [I know that in the current model of the Magic system, Haven is related to Light and Dark magic - however, in this idea, I've just worked with the alternative model where Haven relates to Light, Summoning and Destructive magic and is opposed to Dark magic.]


It would probably be hard to implement such a model with the existing skill system, but I think it would make sense to put more focus on the strong sides of each class. Of course, this might also bring back the idea of having two Hero types for each faction, a might and a magic Hero, because Heroes would be less able to cross develop (that is, a Might hero like the Knight would have severe disadvantages if he wanted to develop into a Magic hero).

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silentbobus
silentbobus


Adventuring Hero
posted June 26, 2006 05:33 PM

Here are my responses:

Moving creatures without heroes
- Makes sense, except for those that might have a tendancy to 'wander off' without a caretaker. I think this was a good feature from IV that got left out.

Caravans
- Sorry, I really don't rememebr what this was

Daily growth of creatures
- Indifferent towards this one. It makes sense, but it makes planning a little bit tougher at the beginning.

The master and grandmaster skill ranks
- This is already taken care of with the addional skill perks

Heroes fight and can be killed in battles
- Sorry, this is what ruined Heroes for me. The current setup seems fine.

Flaging weekly generators (like waterwheels) deliver resources
- Yes, I hate having to hire lvl 1 heroes solely to do this and creature delivery

Retaliation happens at the same time as attacking
- I never really liked this.

Creatures can not be upgraded
- I'd say no to this, but I always wished there was some way when creatures joined you that you could get a slightly smaller number of the upgraded unit, instead of the original unit.

Making Choices of which creatures to build at your castle (i.e hydra or black dragon)
- No, although I think requiring you to build the town up more to get all structures might be a good idea, so at various points you'd have to choose.

Nothing! heroes 4 was terrible in all aspects
- Heroes IV was a step backwards, but wasn't a complete waste. Might have been better with more time/money behind it.

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Doomforge
Doomforge

Hero of Order
Mayhem Elemental
posted June 26, 2006 05:44 PM

moving creatures. it's so F*CKING BORING to have to travel to your castle to take reinforcements since it takes so many turns sometimes.. waste of time.. and town portal is pure crap - quite handicapped crap (lvl 20? rotfl).

Heroes on field was so stupid and worthless, they died to anything and it was sooo frustrating (dead every bigger battle...>_> maybe if their hp was tripled or more it wouldn't be that bad..

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marlboroo
marlboroo

Tavern Dweller
posted June 26, 2006 06:31 PM

what about MIXED NEUTRALS battle ???? i mean mixed neutral monster in adv map, not in monster banks

this is my fav feat in h4, more strategy involved

h4 army vs lots of mage and golem neutrals (cool!)
h5 army vs lots of horned overseers neutrals (bleaghh..)


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TDL
TDL


Honorable
Famous Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
posted June 26, 2006 06:55 PM
Edited by TDL at 18:56, 26 Jun 2006.

One adoring H4 fan joins the come back ranks ;)

And yes, I am one of those who adore H4. Some aspects disliked but the game itself lasted longer than H3 for me (I mean, I played it far more often, but mostly because I broke my old h3 CD... )

About the feature come back...

Moving creatures without heroes

A feature that I both liked and disliked. It was far easier to collect all freebies (well, resources only, windmills could not be flagged with critters), yes, but that involved a lot of time to plan. My first turn always consisted of 4 1x critters with good movement searching for resources that lie unguarded.

Also, the ever-growing amount of creatures in town forced me to send daily (or twice-a-week) a small army of minions to my hero. However, my forces were much stronger then...

Still, I say no.

Caravans

And I was the one to think people did not like the Caravan function :S Aye, that feature should reappear in H5, and along with it could carry the creature growth in dwellings accumulation =)

Daily growth of creatures

Already a bit commented above... Did not like it in particular... No comeback.

The master and grandmaster skill ranks

A definite nope! I already remember having to level up in H5 for the ultimate skills... And how much exp is needed for level 39 - 1,2 billion? :S... I like the abilities along with skills... Those are far more interesting, even though there is no resurrection ability anymore nor my fav summoning (which could have been Sylvan's racial skill IMO)

Heroes fight and can be killed in battles

They fight already and have their own initiative ratings But I hated the hero in battle feature. Having a Combat-based hero made you into ultimate slaying machine, capable of slaying several megadragons alone, without an army. Imbalanced and boring. Thus, I'd rather have it the way it is. In fact, it is a lot better here, though I do not understand how hero's damage is calculated =(

Flaging weekly generators (like waterwheels) deliver resources

Yes, a definite comeback. And with it, forget the separate creature movement as they can't flag them anyway.

Retaliation happens at the same time as attacking

Favorite feature of H4. And I mean it. But for a comeback, no. This would then involve a set of new spells. And critters with unlimited retaliation would be a lot better, which could result in some imba stuff.

Though it is almost the same now, you slay several creatures prior to the retaliation. And you can then save a few creatures before getting a devastating blow...

Creatures can not be upgraded
Making Choices of which creatures to build at your castle (i.e hydra or black dragon)


These two might be merged. And yes, and no. When I was a lot into the proposals in 2004 while I was Regnus_Khan, most of my proposals consisted of six levels with two creture choices. That would be the only opportunity to see the game without upgrades.

Without the system proposed, the current upgrades, I am completely satisfied. The thing I do not like is that there are only a few neutral creatures and I am still awaiting for more factions (as we all are). That could reduce my wish to have six levs of two creature choices.

Nothing! heroes 4 was terrible in all aspects

If you had ever caught me saying this, I would cut my tongue off or at least bash my head into the table. The game for me was absolutely adorable. Some creatures should return (especially from Gathering Storm, the Goblin Knights )

Conclusion

Actually, I have yet to choose which to vote for. I am in between the flagging of weekly resource generators and caravans. Both are necessary and are equal in use. But in order to get creatures, you need resources (gold), so weekly gens.
____________
Reality is just a warped placeholder for (our) imagination.

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Doomforge
Doomforge

Hero of Order
Mayhem Elemental
posted June 26, 2006 07:10 PM

Quote:
Having a Combat-based hero made you into ultimate slaying machine, capable of slaying several megadragons alone, without an army.  


did we played two different games? My heroes always died, no matter what skills they had, and their damage was pathetic.

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alcibiades
alcibiades

Hero of Order
and Light
posted June 26, 2006 08:14 PM

Quote:
And yes, I am one of those who adore H4.



So they do excist after all.



No ... just kidding, couldn't resist it. Had some fun time playing Heroes IV myself, but always with that thought in the head ... If this had only been like in Heroes III ...

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TDL
TDL


Honorable
Famous Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
posted June 26, 2006 08:27 PM

Quote:
Quote:
And yes, I am one of those who adore H4.



So they do excist after all.



No ... just kidding, couldn't resist it. Had some fun time playing Heroes IV myself, but always with that thought in the head ... If this had only been like in Heroes III ...


Let's not make it an off-topic discussion, but similar thoughts never crossed my mind

H4 was dedicated for single-player play or hotseat, IMO. As you prefer, they had long, epic scenarios (for download and available in-game) =) I liked XL Zanfa where I could gain ZOUNDS of levels

Oh, and as for doomforge =)

Well, the only times I was a weakling and died was when I picked non-mage heroes with no combat. Otherwise, I could have gone straight into enemy ranks and kill them. First off, to catch some major arties somewhere round and then, off to kill some powerful units.

Sometimes, it was funny to play with Nature. Having over 2k wolves due to summoning... =) And I didn't even need a powerful 40 lvl hero - it was sufficient to have GM nature magic, a summon or a dragon strength...


All to say... Might as well this post be deleted (as off-topic).
____________
Reality is just a warped placeholder for (our) imagination.

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
HC SUPPORTER
posted June 26, 2006 08:30 PM

Moving creatures without heroes - Yes, got my vote.
Caravans - Yes
Daily growth of creatures - Yes
The master and grandmaster skill ranks - No
Heroes fight and can be killed in battles - No
Flaging weekly generators (like waterwheels) deliver resources - Yes
Retaliation happens at the same time as attacking - Yes
Creatures can not be upgraded - NO.
Making Choices of which creatures to build at your castle (i.e hydra or black dragon) - No
Nothing! heroes 4 was terrible in all aspects - H4 was good.
____________
Eccentric Opinion

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Thanatos
Thanatos


Known Hero
posted June 26, 2006 08:35 PM

I'll probably be the only one that says this but I liked the killable heroes the most from H4... immortal and unattackable heroes just boosting the stats of their creatures and tossing spells from the far side of the battlefield just never made sense to me

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rpgguy
rpgguy


Adventuring Hero
Scholar
posted June 26, 2006 09:15 PM
Edited by rpgguy at 21:16, 26 Jun 2006.

Quote:
Good thoughts RPGGuy!

I would like to give some additional thought...


a little off topic but still deserves an answer:

i realy liked your idea of letting only certain skills the ability to raise to grandmaster according to class (just like the might & magic 7,8 games).
restricting classes to advanced doesnt sound like a good idea (expert restriction is enough) becuase then noone will pick those skills.

again the main problem of these system is that if you play a knight and you start with counterstrike and you know you can reach grandmastery with only offene,defense and war machines then youll probably end up choosing those skills...
this is only solvable by increasing the amount of skills you can choose from and giving the grandmastery skills as starting skills (on basic).
also i think giving the player the option to choose each level exactly where to spend its points is the best system (like diablo2).

well thats just my opinion... any way back to the topic:
i noticed some people voted the last option (heroes 4 is terrible!) but i didnt see any comments in text explaining their choice which tells me that they just voted like this with no actual reason (other than pure hatred for heroes 4...) - if you choose that option please explain what is so bad about cravans and the flaging waterwheels issue... (which seems that everyone voted yes so far)
____________
Week Of The Rabbit
Triple Growth For All Creatures

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B0rsuk
B0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted June 27, 2006 03:06 PM
Edited by B0rsuk at 15:10, 27 Jun 2006.

Are multiple option polls impossible ?
Anyway, from those you listed, in no particular order.... Bold features are my favourite.

- moving without heroes was abusive (spamming single peasants etc), but it solved the chaining idiocy. Movement points should stay for creatures. As an aded bonus, it allowed you to sacrifice army size for extra speed when you needed it. More choices = good.

- Caravans
They were great. They removed silly micromanagement which added nothing but tedium to the game.

- daily growth: a nice touch, but nothing special. There's no reason to keep it 'traditional' way.

- The master and grandmaster skill ranks:
It made branching out a little too fixed, because it took longer time to master something. But it wasn't nearly as bad as in H5 where you need a specific sequence of skills to get access to another skill. I predict people will just end up using the same 'most powerful' skills over and over.... IF heroes5 suvives long enough without map editor and working multiplayer.


- Heroes fight and can be killed in battles:
It was a bad idea to implement it. Heroes don't obey  the same laws as creatures, so you either end up having heroes too powerful, or too weak. Potion of invulnerability was a last minute fix and it was a doomsday device in hands of a barbarian.

Flaging weekly generators (like waterwheels) deliver resources
It was great. It removed unnecessary micromanagement and tedium. Why not to automate something all players will always do the same way ? Especially on fixed (non-random) multiplayer maps that people play always the same way.

Simultaneous retaliation
GREAT ! Makes you think twice before attacking, and allows you to actually use 'defend' command outside of blocking damaged city walls. I played Master of Magic and it worked great. I'm playing (right now) Fantasy General and it works great. In Heroes(1-3) u {5} speed=power and no way around it. In Heroes4 it's actually much more complex.
Another undeniably good effect simultaneous retaliation has on gameplay is that it keeps army sizes in check. In other homm games direct damage spells become simply crap in later stages of a game. The same is true for just about any effect that doesn't scale. Later on, the only good spells are those that either don't care about army size (clone, berserk, blind), or scale with army size (stoneskin, bless).

Creatures can not be upgraded
Making Choices of which creatures to build at your castle

I loved both.
Upgrades are fairly pointless, in most cases you simply do it as fast as possible. Extra burden not related to strategy. There's very little reason not to upgrade creature dwellings... other than hill fort, but maps containing it tend to be banned in multiplayer.
Creature choices, on the other hand... are, well, choices. You could always choose between two of three homm basic creature types: for example, between shooter or flyer, walker or flyer, walker or shooter.
In addition, Homm4 creatures worked great when compared to h3, because every single one of them was unique and had at least one special ability. Many of h3 creatures are just piles of numbers.
-----------------------
Of those you didn't mention, I loved:

NOT random magic system
Each town aligned with one magic type, with ability to build suplementary small  libraries. On top of that, unlike H3, each of h4 magic schools was built around a purpose. You could actually depend on it, and factor it into your strategy. For the first time in the serries you were guaranteed to have some real benefit from upgrading mage guild. No longer possible to get View Mines, Visions, level3 Hypnotize which still sucked big time, fireball which is just plain too weak to do something in mid game, protection from fire, etc. Also, H4 spells used to be a lot more balanced, there was much less junk than in H3. Yes, I am aware H4 magic system is Magic: The Gathering ripoff.

Extra tactical features
Like line-of-sight requirement for ranged attacks, spells; turrets you had to man to use them. Walls that don't fall apart when something goes 'Boo!'. Walls had actual tactical importance, and even flyers were hindered by them.
I liked the wall bonus melee city defenders had.
Units affected by battlefield terrain. (movement)

Gold shortage
Yes, I liked it. When you have to choose your purchases, you think more.

Stealth skill
A non-combat way of gaining experience ? Sign me up.

Innovative spells
Fiery aura, Mana Flare, Spell Shackle, Cat Reflexes, Heavenly Shield, Song of Peace, Regeneration, Displacement, Cowardice, Flight, Power Drain, Steal Enchantment, Pain Mirror, Cancelation, Mire (OMG ! hostily adventure map spell !), Aura of Fear, Vampiric Touch. And I mentioned only spells not present in earlier homm games. Makes you realize how poor h5 spell system is.

Fog of war!!!!
This single feature made scouting skill very useful.
----------------
Quote:

noticed some people voted the last option (heroes 4 is terrible!) but i didnt see any comments in text explaining their choice which tells me that they just voted like this with no actual reason (other than pure hatred for heroes 4...)



It can be simpler than that. My guess is that people who voted for it simply can't build coherent sentences.

____________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5um8QWWRvo RSA Animate - Smile or die

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Doomforge
Doomforge

Hero of Order
Mayhem Elemental
posted June 27, 2006 04:06 PM

You say choices are good, but you forgot that H4 brought us pathetic unit balance, which resulted in same choices every game. Who would possible choose Ogres over cyclopes? Unicorns over griffons? etc..

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alcibiades
alcibiades

Hero of Order
and Light
posted June 28, 2006 06:02 AM

I chose Unicorns over Griffins.

But I'm in with you, the Cyclops, Genie and Water Elemental were probably some of the most unbalanced units ever. But just because some features weren't that good, doesn't meen you couldn't include some of it. And just because the game on an overall received bad critics, that's not the same as saying that you shouldn't consider what they did well - and what they did not-so-well - and then learn from mistake, rather than just skip it.

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Doomforge
Doomforge

Hero of Order
Mayhem Elemental
posted June 28, 2006 09:38 AM

Besides, I wanted to have venom spawns AND vampires in my army, it was so unfair that I couldn't

But, the no-upgrade thing really wasn't that bad after all.. maybe after some tweaks it'd be good..


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