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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: The Perfect Stronghold
Thread: The Perfect Stronghold This thread is 27 pages long: 1 ... 5 6 7 8 9 ... 10 20 27 · «PREV / NEXT»
SBlister
SBlister


Famous Hero
Rakshasa Commander
posted August 20, 2006 10:23 PM
Edited by SBlister at 22:26, 20 Aug 2006.

Oh! Sorry. It was all War-Overlord's ideas. Hahaa. Sorry Overlord... My bad. Instead of Dark Contrast how about Burden of the Light or Defilement/Desecration? With Earthlink I don't want it to rely so much upon luck... I thought of renaming spirit shield to spiritual embrace. it heals like the paladins and it doest resurrect. Sorcery is a tough one. I think we should discard Ancestral Call and meditation. anyone have any ideas?
Unit stats... might wanna increase the defense of berserkers and veterans and the HP of veterans. Besides that...very nice gnoll mage. But then again im no expert on the matter. Good job.
Of the topic, I posted a vote between elephant and ape behemoth. Guess who's winning... ELEPHANT!!! woohoo!!

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted August 20, 2006 11:18 PM
Edited by alcibiades at 23:27, 20 Aug 2006.

Quote:
I'll go with the level 5 Wyvern, level 4 Shaman, level 6 Troll.

Oh, by the way, the dragons of water and fire already have names (Shalassa and Arkath I think, not sure of spelling), but that probably isn't important...



---


Edit: right, here's the first draft for the stats. I'll add explanation/comments afterwards.


Unit--------------Attack-Defence-Damage----HP---Mana-Shots-Initiative-Speed-Cost--Growth
Goblin---------------2------1------1--------5-----0----0-------11-------5----?------19
Hobgoblin------------3------2----1 to 2-----5-----0----0-------11-------5----36-----19
Berserker------------4-----"1"---3 to 4----10-----0----0-------11-------6----?------10
Berserker Veteran----5------2----3 to 5----10-----0----0-------11-------6----88-----10
Wolf Marauder--------5------3----4 to 6----15-----0----0-------10-------6----?-------9
Wolf Ravager---------6------3----4 to 8----18-----0----0-------10-------6---130------9
Shaman---------------6------5----4 to 10---30----10----5-------"7"------4----?------"6"
Elder Shaman---------6------6----4 to 11---48----16----5-------"9"------4---340*----"6"
Wyvern--------------12-----12---10 to 15---60-----0----0-------11-------7----?-------3
Quartzhide Wyvern--"14"----17---10 to 18---80-----0----0-------11-------6---769------3
Troll---------------22-----19---15 to 22--130-----0---"5"-------7-------4----?-------2
Battle Troll--------22-----21---15 to 30--140-----0---"5"-------8-------4--1850*-----2
Behemoth------------27-----23---30 to 60--150-----0----0-------10-------6----?-------1
Dire Behemoth-------30-----28---40 to 65--210-----0----0-------11-------6--4583------1


Goblin: an attack based, pathetic level 1; cheap and cheerful, not bad on the initiative, but not that fast as they are quite small.
Hobgoblin: better weapons in the description made me raise attack, defence and damage, leaving the rest.
Berserker: very attack based, above avergae for their level I thought; low on HP and slightly faster than Goblins as are bigger.
Berserker Veteran: again, description said two weapons, and that he couldn't be touched so easily, so I changed the first 3 stats.
Wolf Marauder: attack based again, but more defence as has some armour; they could perhaps do with improving; at the moment they are (although above average?) still high in growth and very cheap, possibly Alci's sheet isn't working properly....
Wolf Ravager: various improvements, perhaps there could be more; whilst I'm on the topic have I improved the right stats in general? - as in, if attack and defence are almost always improved when upgrading in the game, and speed is rarely changed, have I followed this pattern too?.
Shaman: Finally a unit that can be equal in attack and defence; I got the impression that the Orcs aren't very magical so this guy is weak, maybe too weak?.
Elder Shaman: various improvements; note the fact that they are below average makes them the only unit in the game at that level to have a growth of 6.
Wyvern: again, balanced stats seemed to work here, could be faster perhaps?
Quartzhide Wyvern: big on defence now with those scales, slower as described.
Troll: it was hard to make these sensibly powerful without sending their power rating through the roof - I think they need less specials (although come to think of it they need to be powerful to make up for a non-flying, non-ranged level 7).
Battle Troll: armour improves defence, a few other improvements; right at the top of the price range.
Behemoth: perhaps a little poor (?); attack based with low HP; same speed and initiative as a giant.
Dire Behemoth: a goodish-quality but not overexpensive unit; high power rating makes up for lack of range or flying.

Issues:
"" numbers are ones that are unprecedented in the game, i.e. my creatures are worse / better than all other creatures.
Asterisked (*) costs are ones that have been changed from the original recommendation in Excel to fit within the current range of prices in the game.
? shows that the generator can't cope with downgrades. This is a little worrying because it means downgraded stats could be too low / high, but hopefully it won't be a problem. I'll calculate ? costs at some point I expect.
I need descriptions of what the specials do to be really accurate with creature power, but it's not that important.
In the game some growths would be made lower, and a building for increasing it would be added (etc.) - in other words I haven't taken growth buildings into account, and just shoving them on top would overbalance that tier.
Plus what I've mentioned above with the creatures.


Comments please! I'll be seeing how well it balances at some other point. Believe it or not preliminary workings show it sitting perfectly in the middle - exactly half way between the current middle towns, sylvan and academy (well, just outside 0.05% from the middle actually). This almost makes me not want to bother with the full anlysis.


Good work, GM, a few objections as usual: The combo of level 4 Caster/Shooter + level 5 Flyer + level 6 shooter seems a bit problematic for me. Would probably be better ballanced with a level 2 (or 1 or perhaps 3) Shooter and a level 4 Caster/Walker. It'd also make early game a bit easier (3 walkers is never an easy combo in early game).

Also, some other issues - several of the units seem pretty crappy, even though I'm not quite sure of which specials each unit will have. For instance Hobgoblin + Beserker = both crappy infantry units, and Wyvern has pretty bad stats all the way through. And no unit with speed above 7 is also a problem for me - and even worse, no unit with just a decent initiative - no value above 11!?

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Miru
Miru


Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
posted August 21, 2006 05:35 AM

A small idea - I didnt read this so I dont know if anyone thought of this yet, but instead of a magic guild, you can have a might guild. I dont know what this could do - maby give you more combat abilities, or let you have a little control over what abilities you are offered when you level.
____________
I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.

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baklava
baklava


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
posted August 21, 2006 11:43 AM

That's a great but radically new idea, Miru. I think we'd better stay out of that one.
Ok, berserkers should definitely have higher initiative, and goblins should be faster. About not having any ranged troops in early levels, we could give the shooting ability to the Marauders, but only to upgraded ones or something like that. I don't know. I thought they're good enough already because of the abilities.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted August 21, 2006 12:19 PM

That's one possibility. I'd rather see the Bezerkers out of the game. The idea of a unit I cannot control is simply very unappealing to me, and they never worked for me in Heroes IV. Better to have back the traditional Axe Thrower then is my oppinion.

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vigant
vigant


Adventuring Hero
posted August 21, 2006 12:30 PM

I agree with alcibiades, the Berserkers must go and Axe Throwers must replace them. And really? The Trolls stronger than Wyverns? Ok, fine, not my decision.
____________

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SBlister
SBlister


Famous Hero
Rakshasa Commander
posted August 21, 2006 03:52 PM
Edited by SBlister at 15:54, 21 Aug 2006.

I'd rather give the shooter ability to the goblins and keep the marauders as melee walkers. No one ever said the berserkers couldn't be controlled. That's HOMM 4. These berserkers are different. Their specials are Enraged and Berserk. Berserk is an active ability. Once you activate it, you lose control of the berserker for one round but it does 50% to 100% more damage. or something to that effect. It will go straight for the closest enemy stack. Unlike frenzy, they wont attack their own allies. Then when they are upgraded they get no enemy retaliation which combined with their berserk is gonna do some pretty nasty damage. They are not weak units at all. the stats need to be tweaked though. they're probably the same as the blood maidens... I was one to suggest the goblins be the shooters while the shamans were melee units. Kind of balances things out...

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War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted August 21, 2006 07:11 PM

Again I'm gone for one day and an entirely new discussion starts. First of all the abilities SBlister made up are very nice, but one special ability per skill seems a bit underpowered. Seeing that most of the heroes have two per skill. I realy like Burden of the Light. I only have a problem with Earthlink. The Orcs are worshippers of the Dragon of Fire, at least in Destructive magic that should be reflected. As for Sorcery, why don't we use my original Shaman's Chosen(Aplying the main Sorcery benefit to Shamans). I don't realy like the name Call to War, for the Warlords ultimate. To me it doesn't realy make sense, I don't see the connection with the ability, while having a furious commander shout at you al the time, it would make more sense to get furious yourself.
Secondly, the Fire Dragon's name being Arkath is merely speculation, it might say so in the Myth of Creation, but that has never been confirmed by either Ubisoft or Nival.
Thirdly, it seems you've made some very nice stats Gnoll_Mage, but I must admit that I have absolutly no idea of what would be ballanced or not. Though, I would like to suggest to make the Wolf Marauders and Ravagers a bit faster(More speed), since they are the cavalry it would make sense that they move further in one turn. We've also balanced having a level 7 walker, by having an extra seige-unit. I still have to disagree of removing the Shaman as a shooter. Inferno also gets its first shooter at level 4 and I believe it is even more expensive. Also, as stated before, if we would rethink the entire creature-lineup and their abilities, it would be quite counterproductive.
____________
Iron from Ice.

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SBlister
SBlister


Famous Hero
Rakshasa Commander
posted August 22, 2006 06:54 AM

Oh no... These 12 are new abilities. They're up for discussion. Once they have been finalized, then i will mix and mash em with the pre-existing abilities. Well yeah orcs are worshippers of the fire but the shamans still have ties to the earth. Hence earthlink. of all the four elements the earth element is the one that has been least utilized.  Shaman's Chosen would be better served as a speciality for a specific hero that specializes in shamans rather than a general ability. How bout  furious battlecry rather than furious overlord? i agree that the line up should stay. Tweaking the stats is a must. Though i have no idea how it works.

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baklava
baklava


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
posted August 22, 2006 11:37 AM

Me neither. I guess we must download all the stats for all creatures and then compare them with these to get something that would be great.
Technically, it wouldn't be too hard if we just replace the berserkers with axe throwers. I think we should vote on this.
My vote goes for berserkers because we tried really hard to make them along with their abilities and blah blah blah.
Please post your votes people, I'd like to hear other opinions.
IMPORTANT NOTE: Berserkers CAN BE controlled, they're not like the ones from Heroes IV. War-Overlord already explained this, I'm just reminding.

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SBlister
SBlister


Famous Hero
Rakshasa Commander
posted August 22, 2006 02:21 PM
Edited by SBlister at 14:34, 22 Aug 2006.

Unit--------------Attack-Defence-Damage----HP---Mana-Shots-Initiative-Speed
Goblin---------------2------1----1 to 2-----5-----0----0--------9-------5
Hobgoblin------------3------2----2 to 3-----6-----0----0-------10-------5
Berserker------------4------2----3 to 4----12-----0----0-------11-------6
Berserker Veteran----5------3----3 to 5----15-----0----0-------11-------6
Wolf Marauder--------5------4----4 to 6----20-----0----0-------13-------7
Wolf Ravager---------6------5----5 to 8----25-----0----0-------15-------7
Shaman---------------7------8----6 to 11---30----10----5--------9-------4
Elder Shaman---------7------8----7 to 13---36----15----5--------9-------4
Wyvern--------------13-----14---10 to 17---55-----0----0-------11-------7
Quartzhide Wyvern---17-----18---10 to 20---72-----0----0-------12-------7
Troll---------------20-----21---16 to 28--133-----0----5--------7-------4
Battle Troll--------22-----24---20 to 32--166-----0----6--------8-------4
Behemoth------------28-----27---30 to 55--180-----0----0-------11-------6
Dire Behemoth-------30-----29---40 to 65--235-----0----0-------11-------7


My own stab at doing the stats...
I'm dead set at changing anything to the lineup except giving the shooter ability from the shamans to the goblins. that's my vote.
The other abilities for the Warlord:
Retribution (attack), Seal of Darkness (Dark Magic), Last Stand (Defense), Fiery Wrath (Destructive Magic), Aura of Swiftness (Leadership), Suppress Light (Light Magic), Silent Stalker (Logistics), Spoils of War (Luck), Elemental Balance (Summoning Magic), Brimstone Catapult (War Machines)

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Crashnburn
Crashnburn


Hired Hero
posted August 22, 2006 02:35 PM


I prefer the Berserkers to the axe throwers.


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Gnoll_Mage
Gnoll_Mage


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted August 22, 2006 04:28 PM
Edited by Gnoll_Mage at 21:01, 16 May 2007.

Thanks all for the feedback - I'll try and respond to what people have said.

1. Where did "Arkath" (?) come from? He's in the myth of creation. Ask Alci about it for a link if you need one (or look in his suggestions thread).

2. Making it 4500 - of course we can. I simply used the figures that the Excel sheet came up with. Probably they should be adjusted more than that anyway, as the sheet will create very 'average' prices throughout the castle, rather than making one level cheap, another expensive, which is more interesting.

3. 0.05% does include specials, weighted using Alci's decisions.

4. Berserker, Veteran defence ^; Veteran HP ^ - the stats are out there to be fiddled with now so you / all of us can choose / vote for what you / we want changed.

5. Alci - I also think there is an uneven spread of flying / caster / ranged, but this wasn't my decision to make, I simply followed what I'd been told. Someone's idea of moving the ranged ability from Shamans to Goblins sounds great, although the Shaman would need a stat boost for this.

6. Again, if the stats are too low in your eyes, change them. Interestingly Berserkers are by your sheet an above average level 2.
The Shaman is probably the one in most need of an increase.

7. More speed and initiative - definitely a good idea. The reason they are generally low is because I went through dolling out points until it felt about right for the creature, then didn't go back to check for balance. But, what should be speed 8? Wyvern could be but it makes them seem too much like dragons; Wolves shouldn't be that fast. Initiative is more open to change, as it can be explained away more easily - e.g. Goblins should have intiative 13 "as they are very aware of their environment" or "they have naturally quick-thinking brains, even if their small legs can't carry them very fast", etc., etc.. But you are right now I look back at them, something needs to have higher initiative at least to make the creatures more different from each other. Increasing it for levels 1 and 2 would help with the above comment under 6. too.

8. Faster wolves - sure, whatever, it would make up a teensy bit for no archers and flyers in the first 3 (if it is to stay this way).

I think that's everything. As for Berserkers and Axe Throwers, I like the former, maybe they could throw axes too (would negate the need for transfering shots to the Goblin). So to finish, thanks for giving me the opportunity to make those stats!!
____________

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Gnoll_Mage
Gnoll_Mage


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted August 22, 2006 04:36 PM
Edited by Gnoll_Mage at 16:57, 22 Aug 2006.

As for SBlister's stats, he's made some big improvements there, which might overbalance the town (although maybe it's needed if they lack magical ability).

He's

1. fiddled with the goblins, which is fine - slower but slightly more powerful.
2. decreased the vulnerability and bias of the Berserkers, which was needed.
3. done the same with the Wolves as level 2
4. also sped the Wolves up - I'm for a speed increase, and an initiative increase somewhere but this does seem a little OTT (even if basically sensible), although it does make up for three low level walkers.
5. seriously bumped the Shamans (I kept them low for interest and because they had quite a few specials I think), but made them less healthy.
6. done the same to the Wyverns - needed for the sole flyer, but not this much perhaps?
7. equated the Wyvern's speeds.
8. made trolls better still (not really needed).
9. made them defence based (fine for interest and variation but the description led me to do the opposite).
10. upped the basic behemoth (I kept him lower since he's not the only level 7 walker).
11. increased the upgrade by a bit too (fine).

There's my thoughts, place your votes now...

YES________________________
YES but not so much________
MEH, I'm good either way___
NO_________________________  

____________

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SBlister
SBlister


Famous Hero
Rakshasa Commander
posted August 22, 2006 11:55 PM

The stats aren't final. It still needs tweaking. Let everybody have their say and then we finally decide. I don't know about the growth and cost part. Someone else would have to do that one. Once the stats and descriptions have been finalized, i'll make like a master list and post it up. Then we can use that one for any further improvement. Cuz ppl seem to be confused bout the berserkers and controlling them no matter how many times we post that they can be controlled.

ps - Was this website taken over by some terrorist earlier today? It had this funny owned by someone writing with a really creepy message from some turkish dude. come on now. why would anyone wanna hijack this website...

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baklava
baklava


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
posted August 23, 2006 11:23 AM

I know, it happened to me too. Everyone just seems to have decided to keep that in secret.
That's not a terrorist, but a hacker. He was crapping about how my system is "0wn3d". I hope you ran a virus check through your computer, SBlister, 'cause the retarded Ottoman's idea of "0wn1ng" is to inject a simple "trojan" in it which would download itself while you read his dumb message. I know, I found his "trojan".
Don't worry, it's not like Bin Laden came and said "Alright geeks I got your site now give me $1000000 and a haircut!"
Same advice to everyone else, scan your PCs for viruses.

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baklava
baklava


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
posted August 23, 2006 11:31 AM

Back to topic

Gnoll_Mage, I understand your logic about upgraded wyverns being slower, but that's simply weird. Why would anyone pay that much gold to get a slower creature? It doesn't make sense.
Look at it this way: normal wyverns don't have scales, but the Quartzhide ones are much stronger, as they are sort of veterans and henceforth they can move themselves easily around the battlefield.
In my opinion, trolls should have a little more movement and a little less defense.
It seems the berserkers are staying.
How about we give the goblins a few javelins, so they can shoot but they have only 3 or 4 shots? No melee penalty, of course.

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Gnoll_Mage
Gnoll_Mage


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted August 23, 2006 01:16 PM

I made the Quartzhides slower because it was explicitly mentioned in the description (I think) - and it's nice to have something like the peasant where upgrading makes a unit worse in one area, even if overall it's improved. But if you think it's a problem, perhaps a slight drop in initiative would be less severe (although less sensible?).

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War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted August 23, 2006 03:20 PM bonus applied.

First of all, I have to save Gnoll_Mage of being thrashed by you guys. I was the one who stated that Quartzhides were slower, because of the enormous amounts of minerals that are in their bodies they are significantly heavier then their nomarl counterparts. That is why I stated they are slowed because of their weight, therefor needing more effort to move and stay aloft. Which I personaly planned to be a very slight drop in initiative So blame me for that.

Secondly, the "Myth of Creation" itself is based on speculaiton. The link on Alci's suggestion thread leads to a text-document, that is (at least) hosted via Alci. Personaly, I think he made the whole "Myth" up, to justify his suggestions.

Thirdly, we already agreed that we would not make the Goblins and Hobgoblins shooter. As I recall that was because there were already to many level 1 shooters, because it doesn't realy fit Goblins and because it would give the Stronghold to many shooters. I say we stick to the original creature line-up. Besides, Stronghold has never realy be a faction/town which was particularly great in early game and, personaly, I have more losses of the shooter level ones then the non-shooters.

Lastly I'll run a spelling check on all the Creature descriptions, so you guys can take a look at all of them and we can finaly finish them.

Goblins
Goblins are considered the lowest of the low by most races. These small, spindly, sneaky and cowardly creatures always operate in great numbers and for every one killed, there seem to appear three more. Orcs are the only race that allows Goblins to live in their society, but even there the Goblins aren't treated very respectful and are there to perform the work that is considered to low for an Orc to perform. Goblins are small enough to climb over a castle wall without to much effort and use their serrated knives to kill once they get over. Goblins usually wear no more then cloth shorts, have long pointy ears and have a light green skin colour.

Hobgoblins
Only the most trustworthy and hardworking Goblins are promoted to Hobgoblins. The promotion is a painful ritual, which involves the Goblins drinking spiked Orcblood. This blood potion causes small mutations in the physique of the Goblins, making them more muscular, causing them to sprout tusk knobs and turning their skin in a darker taint. Still lower then any Orc, Hobgoblins get to boss other Goblins around and are used by the Orc overseers to help them keep the Goblins as orderly as Goblins can get. Hobgoblins are marked by facial tattoos, a small helmet and a harness and they often use the flats of their cleavers to whack the other Goblins, to 'encourage' them back to work. Hobgoblins often use the large numbers of their kind to overwhelm their enemies, ordering the Goblins to pile onto them. Even the largest of creatures have to take time to shake of a horde of Goblins.

Berserker
Orcs are a race of Warriors and the Warrior caste is the largest in Orcsociety. Berserkers make up the bulk of any Orc army. Armed with the Orcish hooked swords(Orc Sabres) they are a force to be reckoned with. Because most Orcs prefer the move-ability of leather armour above being slowed down by heavy metal armour, they are much faster over much other infantry. Other then popular belief Berserkers don't enter battle in a frenzied state, it is in the vicinity of the enemy that the Orcs loose themselves in rage and attack with their trademark ferocity.

Berserker Veteran
Berserker Veterans are seasoned warriors, having seen many fights and fought many wars and live to tell the tales. After those years of combat practice, the Veterans have mastered the use of two weapons. Next to their swords they wield razor sharp axes. This makes them the more feared foe, as it is nearly impossible to dodge both weapons. The Veterans have also experienced their Bloodlust many times and are able to pull themselves out of their blind rage more quickly. The better to use on a new adversary.

Wolf Marauder
Orcs have their own kind of cavalry, instead of horses Orc ride wolves. Vicious, black, tusked, horse-sized wolves. The Orcs are slightly armoured with leather clothes shin plates, gauntlets and helmets, though this is considered quite heavily by the Orcs. The Orcs are armed with Orcsabres, while the wolves make due with their sharp teeth the wolves have to be trained from a pup to accept their riders, a training that forms an exceptional bond between mount and rider. Both take over the characteristics of the other. The most notable of which is the pack mentality, every regiment of Marauders behaves and is strengthened like a pack of wild wolves.

Wolf Ravagers
Ravagers are the elite cavalry of the Orcs, making them often the decisive factor in battles. Only the most tireless and honourable Orcs are allowed in the Ravagers ranks. Ravagers wear the same outfits as Marauder, save the numerous spikes on their armour and are armed with massive war blades. Using their almost unnatural stamina, the Ravagers will keep on fighting, turning their part of a battle into a massacre. However the most striking of the Ravagers is their unique war cry. They are able to attract the attention of the foe in even the most heated battle, drawing them away from their allies.

Shamans
The Shamans make up the priest caste in Orcsociety. They are the spiritual leaders of the Orcs and are the keepers of the lore. The Shamans are the Orcs that keep the every day life of a Stronghold running by performing various ceremonies, creating multiple potions and salves and keeping the warriors in line. The Orcs worship the Demigod of War, and it is from him that a Shaman receives his magic powers. Shamans channel this magic to gem-imbedded halberds, though this Demigod magic is very unstable. The Shamans are also taught various spells, to arouse their comrades or to torture their enemies. They are also very skilled in breaking the minds of the enemy

Elder Shamans
The Elder Shamans are the oldest, wisest and most powerful Shamans of the Orc Tribes. They are the advisors of Chieftains and the messenger of the Dragon of War. They are more able to control their chaotic magic and are more reliable then their less experienced brethren. Elder Shamans also have the ability to commune and call on the ancestors of the Orcs, which is caused, according to Orc belief, by their blood-soaked robes. The Elder Shamans have never confirmed or denied this.

Wyvern
The Wyverns are rumoured to be related to Dragons and some even dare to state that they are the bastard offspring of the Dragon of War. Either way their Dragon heritage is obvious, these winged reptiles are about 2/3 of the size of Dragons and aren't as strong, but are far more numerous. The serpent like head of the Wyvern sports to long poisonous fangs and its barbed tail has several poisonous spikes, though this poison is only numbing. Wyverns feed on antelopes, mountain goats and cougars, some rumours even state that they hunt wild Griffins. Wyverns roost upside-down, like bats, on large overhanging cliffs and in caverns and often do this in large colonies. The Wyverns lack front limbs, making them rather clumsy on the ground. Several Orc tribes have managed to cultivate the quite intelligent Wyverns, using them as scouts and in their war-effort.

Quartzhide Wyvern
The Quartzhide Wyverns distinguish themselves from their younger kind by their quartz like scales. These scales are, like the mineral they are called by, very hard and have the unique quality of protecting their body from magic. The Wyverns get this skin in an unusual way: After Wyverns reach maturity, they regularly swallow small pieces of Quartz to grind down the bones they swallow in their stomach. During this process tiny pieces of the mineral break of and get into the blood of the Wyverns, where they eventually reach the new layer of scales underneath the skin of the Wyverns. Every time the Wyverns shed their skin, these new harder scales reach the surface. It takes a Wyvern about thirty years to have shed into full crystal scales, after which the Quartzhide Wyvern stops shedding its skin. Even though Quartz is a relatively lightweight crystal, a full hide makes the Quartzhides heavier, slowing them down a bit.

Trolls
The Trolls are another race enslaved by the Orcs. The Trolls are an ancient breed of unknown origin and have been around since any race can remember. The Trolls themselves are enormous and immensely strong, though they are to dim-witted to be a threat on their own. Even though the Trolls are capable of speech (Barely), their intelligence is to low for them to have ever organised themselves. Ever since the Orcs have enslaved the Trolls they've used them in their war effort, using the Trolls to hurl massive boulders at their enemies. The boulders are large enough to squash an entire platoon, which once more demonstrates the strength of the Trolls

Battle Trolls
The Battle Trolls are Trolls that have been especially trained for war. These Trolls have been wounded so many times that their bodies adapted to heal faster then normal, causing the Trolls to recover from their wounds during the battle. The Battle Trolls, after long years of training, are less dependant of their Orcish overseers and have been trained to act as living catapults. A squad of Battle Trolls is able to batter down castle walls with their boulders. This makes them more valuable for the Orcs, which is the reason why the Battle Trolls are given some pieces of armour.

Behemoth
The gargantuan Behemoths are a vicious, raging, carnivorous breed of creatures and were originally created by the Dragon-patron of the Orcs during the Troll wars. Being created for the Orcs, the Behemoths are very protective of their Orc overseers, making them extremely useful in the Orcish war-effort. The Behemoths match most Dragons in size and are equipped with enormous, razor-sharp claws. These claws, in combination with their unbelievable strength, are capable of tearing through any known armour or hide. Behemoths usually build their lairs in canyons, where they make a nest of bones. Behemoths need large amounts of meat every day and will eat anything they can kill. Wild Behemoths are even known to prey on the mortal Dragons. Behemoths usually have dark grey fur, although the vicinity of their huge maw is mostly red of hardened blood.

Dire Behemoths
As Behemoths get older, their fur slowly turns pitch black. These older Behemoths have more control of their unnatural rage and can swing from relatively docile to berserk in a matter of seconds. Because these Dire Behemoths have this mental control, they allow the Orcs to fit them with armour plating. These massive slabs of metal are littered with large metal spikes, giving the Dire Behemoths an artificial spiked carapace. Many of the enemies of the Orcs have found themselves impaled on the spikes of a Dire Behemoth's armour.

____________
Iron from Ice.

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baklava
baklava


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Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
posted August 23, 2006 09:22 PM

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First of all, I have to save Gnoll_Mage of being thrashed by you guys.

Dude, I never tried to thrash Gnoll_Mage, he rocks. He made us all the stats.
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The link on Alci's suggestion thread leads to a text-document, that is (at least) hosted via Alci. Personaly, I think he made the whole "Myth" up, to justify his suggestions.

Let's just try to avoid the possible incoming conflict and focus on the stat perfection right now, ok? Stats are I think the only thing we need to finish our Stronghold. The dragon's name stays Dimorgh unless Arkath is mentioned in the official storyline on heroesofmightandmagic.com.
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Thirdly, we already agreed that we would not make the Goblins and Hobgoblins shooter. As I recall that was because there were already to many level 1 shooters, because it doesn't realy fit Goblins and because it would give the Stronghold to many shooters.

Yeah, I forgot about that. Ok, the goblins are staying in melee.
And finally:
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But if you think it's a problem, perhaps a slight drop in initiative would be less severe (although less sensible?).

That would be great. But the initiative drop shouldn't be more than two.

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