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| Thread: Destructive (Warlock’s) Magic |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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ThE_HyDrA
Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
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posted July 09, 2006 08:27 AM |
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Destructive (Warlock’s) Magic
We all know of the four magic secondary skills, and how they’re aligned to the various towns. Needless to say, Destructive Magic is the pet of the Dungeon town, and much of its spellcasting prowess derives from its proficiency in the field of Destructive Magic. However, there are indeed other towns that also are inclined to learn Destructive Magic – most notably, Sylvan and Necropolis. Wizards and especially the Inferno will find Destructive Magic easy enough to use, however, not to the extent of the Necromancers.
Destructive Magic is obviously spellpower dependent, meaning Rangers and, to an extent, Demon Lords will fail to utilise the full power of Destructive Magic. However, Rangers do have an escape route: Imbue Arrow. Various Destructive Magic spells (aside from Armageddon, due to its non-specific area) can be imbued. This is certainly a method that Rangers can effectively use two skills in the one action, and therefore not detracting anything from the effectiveness of the hero. Whether you’re willing to forego more useful skills such as Attack (due to Nature’s Luck if not anything else) is another question altogether, because, like it or not, you will have to sacrifice a skill slot and some experience to develop the skill (through the numerous abilities, too).
Sylvan are a rare case where Destructive Magic can be used as an aside. For the other towns – Inferno, Necropolis and Academy, Destructive Magic is perceived just as any other magic school would be.
Inferno
A Demon Lord is not really suited to a Destructive upbringing, despite their appearance. Their lack of spellpower and adeptness in other skills (like Luck, Attack, Logistics) essentially invalidates the choice of Destructive Magic, even over another rival spell school like Dark Magic. Around level 20, a Demon Lord may have only 4 spellpower (excluding modifiers), where a Warlock or Necromancer may have 11 – 13.
Abilities
While the Demon Lord does have two specialised Destructive Magic abilities (One faction-specific), they really don’t serve to strengthen the power of Destructive spells at all.
Mana Burst is arguably one of the most ineffective abilities in the game, while Searing Fires is in essence similar to Empowered Spells, it is not correlated with Destructive Magic whatsoever, but rather with the Gating secondary skill.
Academy
Wizards are almost omnipotent when dealing with magic. A very high knowledge rating and a high spellpower potential, along with the Library and other skills like Sorcery and, eventually, Artificer contribute to this. Although they’re more suited to learning Summoning Magic, and, to an extent, Dark Magic, Destructive Magic is by no means unattainable.
Due to their high spellpower and knowledge ratings, Wizards are less reliant on Sorcery abilities (though the skill is always useful) and can focus on the Destructive Magic abilities. Wizards will have the chance of learning more Destructive Spells than a Necromancer would thanks to the Library.
Abilities
When it comes to abilities, however, the Academy are in much the same boat as Demon Lords – their two specialised abilities do not alter the potency of Destructive Spells.
While Sap Magic is excellent against Warlocks (managing to neutralise Empowered spells by 40%), Fiery Wrath is fairly much the same as Hellfire, only to a lesser extent. Again, there is no change concerning the Destructive spells themselves.
Necropolis
Necromancers are perhaps the most able in taking advantage of Destructive Magic due to their very high spell power (equal to that of Warlocks). However, Destructive Magic will not be as prevalent as Summoning or Dark Magic, in both the level-up screen and the mage guild, reducing their capabilities by 50%.
Abilities
In spite of this, a Necromancer’s abilities are second to none. Cold Death is superlative if it can be made useful by actually possessing either Ice Bolt or Circle of Winter (the old Frost Ring), and is especially effective against high level creatures. Secrets of Destruction is probably desired no more fervently than by Destructive Necromancers. Not only does it compensate for the Necromancer’s lack of knowledge, but it goes as far as to provide a Destructive spell of the 1st and 3rd levels which has not yet been learnt, increasing the chances of acquiring Circle of Winter.
Of these three towns, not even the Necromancers are able to deal nearly as much damage as like-leveled Warlocks.
The main advantage the Warlock enjoys with Destructive spells is sourced from other skills, notably Elemental Chains, with Empowered Spells, and Luck, with Warlock’s Luck. While the latter was not in effect when using Empowered Spells, that has been remedied in patch 1.1.
Through Empowered Spells, the hero can deal 50% more damage for an added mana cost. However, there is yet another ace in the deck, in Catalyst, which, when the hero reaches level 15, renders the cost of Empowered Spells and the standard iteration equal. Effectively, Destructive spells are 50% more effective for Warlocks than any other hero. Warlock’s Luck adds yet another dimension where spells have a chance of dealing double damage. To put this into perspective, let’s compare a level 21 Warlock with its nearest rival, a level 21 Necromancer, meaning they’d both have approximately 12 spellpower.
As an example, we’ll use a mutual example, Chain Lightning. Assuming both heroes have Expert Destructive Magic (while the Warlock possesses the aforementioned abilities) the damage dealt is:
Necromancer: 25 + 25 x 12 = 325 damage.
Warlock with W/L: 2[1.5(25 + 25 x 12)] = 975 damage.
Warlock without W/L: 1.5(25 + 25 x 12) = 487 damage
While most of the damage is derived from Warlock’s Luck, we must also take into account the added elemental damage that is most likely to result, in this case, another 48 (97) damage, making a total of, at least, 535 damage. This is about 5/3 more powerful. This is considering the best case scenario for a Necromancer (excluding Cold Death, of course), and even then, a Destructive spell would only equal a direct-damage attack from a Knight or Demon Lord. This is not even taking into account the more sizeable attack/defense bonuses they provide their creatures. So what can be done?
Firstly, the formulae of most Destructive spells should be increased to place them on par with other schools (in essence) and so that they become relatively effective for all classes, not only Warlocks.
For example, when considering the spellpower multiplier at 12x for a level 3 spell, it would be more effective later in the game if the multiplier was around the same as its compatriot, Fireball. Perhaps 13x at Basic, 14x at Advanced, and 15x at Expert. Likewise for Lightning Bolt; maybe 15x at Basic, 19x at Advanced, and 23x at Expert.
The largest discrepancy is between Chain Lightning and Meteor Shower. They both cost 8 mana, both have the same damage formula, yet the potential (and eventual) damage for Meteor Shower is far greater, considering the damage is ½ for each creature stack for Chain Lightning. I would consider increasing it to 50 + 35x spellpower (Expert).
Another point of interest is Armageddon and Implosion. While the former not longer completely endears itself to Warlocks because of Irresistible magic, it is still slightly weak for its level. A multiplier around 40x would substantiate its massive mana cost.
Implosion, currently at only 40 + 40 x spellpower (meaning our Necromancer would deal only 520 damage with 12 spellpower), should be drastically increased, too. When comparing this to the current meteor shower, assuming it hits an average of 4 creatures, would deal 1300 damage. Taking this into account, the multiplier should be around 80 + 80 x spellpower. That may sound extreme, but considering the spells limitations, (it equates to 1040 damage) it is only justified.
Another side of the problem is in Empowered Spells. Should they be toned down to a 25 – 35 % bonus rather than 50%? Considering it is a readily available ability for Warlocks, it could either be shifted up the list, with a few more pre-requisites, or indeed softened up as I suggest here.
And so I ask the question, is Destructive Magic really worthwhile for a non-Warlock hero? I’ll let you decide.
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"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”
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shassz
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 09, 2006 09:27 AM |
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I agree with the chain lightening boost and with a moderate 60*(sp+1) boost for implosion. Boosting destructive magic for other nations 2 is not a good idea I think. Dungeon`s specialty is that they can inflict some massive damage and like all creatures(not L6) have a lot of hps. They are not fast(beside L2) and they surely wont conquer with sheer numbers. They are high on attack and have some multiattack abilities but they dont have a good defense. I think they are totally oriented towards some rush strategy even with their skills(power of speed, aura of swiftness, teleport assault). Their hero is another massive attacker with its spells and a perfect match for the dungeon. Other nations have way different tactics and I dont think itd be fair to give them the boost with destructive magic.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 09, 2006 09:36 AM |
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destructive magic is THE toy for warlocks... other factions make a good use of it but mostly in earlygame.
However, thanks to master of storms/ice, destructive magic is much more useful, mainly because the combination of slow from shadow matriarchs and stunning/freezing spell is a non-counterable disabling of the target. And we all know that most races have their "key" unit. Haven is nothing without paladins, sylvan sucks without druids etc. Thanks to those spells, warlock may cripple the enemy's potential. Very good strategy IMO, sometimes better than just casting m.showers and implosions all the time.
Also, the flamewielder heri from academy is a marvelous fireball user, not only dealing much much damage, but also already having master of fire. Do i need to mention that it is the very best academy's earlygame hero? And later on, -50% to armor is a good thing, pared with massive damage dealers like raksasha and djinns.
necros should focus on dark magic entirely imo.
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silx87
Supreme Hero
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posted July 09, 2006 10:13 AM |
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destructive magic for the warlocks, necromancy for the necromancers..
the warlocks too need something to work with, lacking skills like gating and necromancy. Elemental chains damage isn't all that spectacular either and is randomish, though still a great ability.
I think the way destructive magic works now, for warlocks and all heroes is justified.
and as for necromancer - how exactly does cold death work? how much more powerful does it make those spells? or does it just add the single kill ability?
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Thanatos
Known Hero
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posted July 09, 2006 11:53 AM |
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Destructive magic can also be very potent in the hands of a Wizard... with Mark of the Wizard you can either double a spells damage or cast it twice. Just put it on your enemies' most powerful stack.
Also, I thought Warlocks Luck still didn't work with empowered spells as of patch 1.1... have you tested this?
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shassz
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 09, 2006 01:57 PM |
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Quote:
Destructive magic can also be very potent in the hands of a Wizard...
It wouldnt be too fair wizards have access to a wider range of spells and they have their unique artificier ability. Warlock`s (currently and hopefully it wont change) specialty is to pump up any damage that can be made on the battlefield. Mark of the wizard is powerful enough. You can cast implosion on more than 1 person at a time. I guess thats even unmatched by warlock(though 1 turn/additional target is needed to cast mark of the wizard). Btw is there any dungeon or wizard strategy topic like necro`s "necro power deficiency"?
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Thanatos
Known Hero
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posted July 09, 2006 02:05 PM |
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Edited by Thanatos at 14:07, 09 Jul 2006.
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Quote:
Quote:
Destructive magic can also be very potent in the hands of a Wizard...
It wouldnt be too fair wizards have access to a wider range of spells and they have their unique artificier ability. Warlock`s (currently and hopefully it wont change) specialty is to pump up any damage that can be made on the battlefield. Mark of the wizard is powerful enough. You can cast implosion on more than 1 person at a time. I guess thats even unmatched by warlock(though 1 turn/additional target is needed to cast mark of the wizard). Btw is there any dungeon or wizard strategy topic like necro`s "necro power deficiency"?
I never said I thought MotW wasn't powerful enough... it's fine as it is IMO.
edit: There's an academy strategy topic that's somewhat active... same topic exists for dungeon but that one's pretty dead at the moment.
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rainalcar
Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
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posted July 09, 2006 02:13 PM |
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I totaly disagree with the proposal to empower implosion - the key actualy is to weaken meteor shower which is enourmosly powerful at the time. And I am not talking only of catalyst hero/warlock's luck. I am talking of +50% earth damage boots which can be rather easily found, I am talking of sacrificing some creture production to buy artifact merchant.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 09, 2006 04:36 PM |
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yeah, you sacrifice growth and do other things and bam - chain lightning appears in the guild ;p
As long as it is random, it's not broken.
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rainalcar
Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
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posted July 09, 2006 04:37 PM |
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Well, you don't need the merchant until the endgame  And the stuff you can buy is really great. It's worth it lots of time.
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juventas
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 09, 2006 05:44 PM |
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Elemental chains is a bit weak, but the percentage damage added is still nice to have. If you cast a 1000 damage implosion with expert irresistable magic, you can get an extra 150 damage or so.
Implosion is fine the way it is, as is meteor storm, I think. Remember, neither is affected by masteries, so sometimes it is more effective to cast circle of winter than it is to cast meteor storm.
Also, is Warlock's Luck + Empower fixed?
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Shauku83
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted July 09, 2006 05:46 PM |
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Edited by Shauku83 at 17:55, 09 Jul 2006.
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A very good opening, thorough and clear.
Quote:
Firstly, the formulae of most Destructive spells should be increased to place them on par with other schools (in essence) and so that they become relatively effective for all classes, not only Warlocks.
For example, when considering the spellpower multiplier at 12x for a level 3 spell, it would be more effective later in the game if the multiplier was around the same as its compatriot, Fireball. Perhaps 13x at Basic, 14x at Advanced, and 15x at Expert. Likewise for Lightning Bolt; maybe 15x at Basic, 19x at Advanced, and 23x at Expert.
The level 7 creatures health is 2/3 of what it used to be in H3, the 200 instead of the 300. I bring this forth because DD-spells are most usefull against high defence creatures -> higher tier creatures. So increasing DD-spells will lower their significance even further, which surely isn't needed. As for the Hero normal attack doing more damage than DD-spells, that is a feature that should be corrected though.
About the multiplier for Ice Bolt and CoW : they are so because Lightning spells are supposed to be used by high spellpower factions and Ice spells by low spellpower factions. But a small boost is allright perhaps, I don't have that a strong opinion on this.
Quote:
The largest discrepancy is between Chain Lightning and Meteor Shower. They both cost 8 mana, both have the same damage formula, yet the potential (and eventual) damage for Meteor Shower is far greater, considering the damage is ½ for each creature stack for Chain Lightning. I would consider increasing it to 50 + 35x spellpower (Expert).
Agreed. If Meteor Shower hits even 2 targets, it does more damage than the Chain Lightning to all of its 4 targets combined. And the targets may be your own, so Chain Lightning is horribly worse than MS, ofcource it can have the stunning effect to increase its usefullness. However, because the spell is useless most of the combat (when you are engaged with the enemy) the damage of it could be boosted...but only slightly.
MS should be toned down, but this one is tricky. Perhaps to 20 x sp damage OR the area should be diminished to 4 x 4 and retain the 25 x sp damage. I actually like more the idea of it being 5 x 5, a massive half-of-the-battlefield-and-stunning-visually-spell, so my vote would go for it.  And yes, meteor shower still should do more damage than CL, because as Earth Spell it doesn't have any specialities to it. But currently a Warlocks Empowered MS can cripple the enemy right in the beginning of the game, and that should be altered ASAP.
Also one must remember to enhance Pit Lord, if MS gets less powerful. More Spell points to allow two MS would be in order, I think.
Quote:
Another point of interest is Armageddon and Implosion. While the former not longer completely endears itself to Warlocks because of Irresistible magic, it is still slightly weak for its level. A multiplier around 40x would substantiate its massive mana cost.
Implosion, currently at only 40 + 40 x spellpower (meaning our Necromancer would deal only 520 damage with 12 spellpower), should be drastically increased, too. When comparing this to the current meteor shower, assuming it hits an average of 4 creatures, would deal 1300 damage. Taking this into account, the multiplier should be around 80 + 80 x spellpower. That may sound extreme, but considering the spells limitations, (it equates to 1040 damage) it is only justified.
Implosion could have a bigger starting damage, but the multiplier should be 40. Perhaps a 100 + 40 x spellpower, to allow the low level sp races to benefit from it too. Afterall, it costs only 9 mana, again in comparison to the Heroes 3 where it was 30 mana. In H5 the spells are tuned down, but also the costs. This ensures that once battle begins and you get a turn the enemy will have (for example) NO level 7 creatures left, because of Implosion. That is not fun.
Quote:
Another side of the problem is in Empowered Spells. Should they be toned down to a 25 – 35 % bonus rather than 50%? Considering it is a readily available ability for Warlocks, it could either be shifted up the list, with a few more pre-requisites, or indeed softened up as I suggest here.
And so I ask the question, is Destructive Magic really worthwhile for a non-Warlock hero? I’ll let you decide.
It is for some, and it depends on the spells you get from Mage Guild. Ice spells are very usefull for low spellpower factions, sorcery + Lightning Mastery is a deadly combination, Ice & Lightning spell enhancing artifacts are very common...etc. The other factions do pale in comparison to the Warlock though, the damage output can be massive with Warlocks Luck for example. Instead of toning down Empowered spells, I would tone down Warlocks Luck. Double damage is way too much, perhaps 50% here would do the trick.
Overall the key features that should be remembered in this issue are:
1) Direct Damage spells do less damage, but they also cost considerably less.
2) From damage part they are best used against high level creatures, which are less powerfull in Heroes 5.
3) The role of solely doing damage is only for earth spells, the other spells (can) affect gameplay otherways, having another strategical value.
4) Overall the role of Destructive Magic isn't as simple as in H3. Is that a good or bad thing and are they usefull enough can and should be discussed.
My opinions:
-Meteor shower is overpowered at the moment
-Warlocks Luck could be toned down, luck overall could be toned down
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 09, 2006 07:22 PM |
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Quote:
I totaly disagree with the proposal to empower implosion - the key actualy is to weaken meteor shower which is enourmosly powerful at the time. And I am not talking only of catalyst hero/warlock's luck. I am talking of +50% earth damage boots which can be rather easily found, I am talking of sacrificing some creture production to buy artifact merchant.
I agree with this. Implosion was way overpowered in Heroes 3, and I think it's quite fine as it is now. You will be able to dash out serious damage to one group, but it's not completely devastation as in the old days. If things should be changed, only a slight increase (40x Power > 50x Power max!). And about the damage bonus ... +40 seems to be pretty wasted, but the developers made the choice to have Earth, Air and Fire spells have high power multipliers and low bonus, whereas Water spells have low Power multipliers and high bonus (favoring low-power Heroes). Well, I think it's fine to stick with that - basically, what I'd like to see was a Water spell like Disintegrate to deal less damage pr. power but with a higher bonus as an alternative to Implosion.
Meteor shower does good damage, and the 5x5 area is quite powerfull. Perhaps a 4x4 area would have been more reasonable for a level 4 spell ... And then save the 5x5 area for level 5. Of course, we then hit the problem of the rediculous spell loft of only 2 spells pr. level pr. school. Simply not enough!
Chain Lightning ... well, the spell sucks more or less, and always have. It works as an empowered Lightning Bolt, but nothing more than that, the secondary strikes are always useless. Of course, the stunning effect of Master Of Storms adds a tactical element not present for Meteor Shower - but still, it might have been better of as a level 3 spell than a level 4.
And also, I have to agree with the excellent post of Shauku83: Luck has too much importance in the game.
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rainalcar
Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
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posted July 09, 2006 08:50 PM |
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The key to the spell system is such that you really have to think what to cast, not if you have meteor to simply cast it until everyone drops dead. If the developers manage that - great. So far, they are pretty close.
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Vicheron
Known Hero
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posted July 10, 2006 12:16 AM |
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They could just make Implosion work like Incinerate from Heroes 4 so that creatures killed by Implosion can't be resurrected or raised.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 10, 2006 12:26 AM |
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That wouldn't solve anything. You still need expert destructive magic and extremally costly lvl5 mage to get it, and getting l5 mage guild is a major pain in many scenarios. I think lvl 5 spells should really be better, considering their cost (right now, it's way better just to spend the resources on dwellings..)
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juventas
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 10, 2006 12:46 AM |
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Sorry for mentioning this again, but can someone confirm whether or not Warlock's Luck works with empowered spells as of the first patch?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 10, 2006 10:33 AM |
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Quote:
That wouldn't solve anything. You still need expert destructive magic and extremally costly lvl5 mage to get it, and getting l5 mage guild is a major pain in many scenarios. I think lvl 5 spells should really be better, considering their cost (right now, it's way better just to spend the resources on dwellings..)
I don't agree with this. I think the cost of the mage guild is reasonable, and after all, you're not supposed to built all building within the first month. Some things will have to be pulled off if you want to get the highest level buildings, and I think it's ok to have to make the choice between either mage guild or creatures. And as per the level 5 spells, some of them suck (Curse Of The Netherworld and Holy word seriously need to have increased their damage multiplier to be of any use) but most of them are fine as they are in my oppinion - Puppet Master, Ressurection, Implosion and Summon Phoenix are pretty powerfull spells.
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Thanatos
Known Hero
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posted July 10, 2006 11:15 AM |
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Edited by Thanatos at 11:18, 10 Jul 2006.
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Sorry for mentioning this again, but can someone confirm whether or not Warlock's Luck works with empowered spells as of the first patch?
It still doesn't work... I consoled in Warlocks' Luck and casted Empowered Stone Spikes 10 consecutive times with a Luck stat of 4 (so I should have 40% chance), but not one got the luck bonus... there's a chance of 0,6^10*100%=0,60466176% of this happening at random, so I think I can say it's still broken
Normal spells did got Warlocks' Luck applied to them around 40% of the time.
edit: My game version is 1.1 by the way.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 10, 2006 11:51 AM |
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Quote:
I don't agree with this. I think the cost of the mage guild is reasonable, and after all, you're not supposed to built all building within the first month. Some things will have to be pulled off if you want to get the highest level buildings, and I think it's ok to have to make the choice between either mage guild or creatures. And as per the level 5 spells, some of them suck (Curse Of The Netherworld and Holy word seriously need to have increased their damage multiplier to be of any use) but most of them are fine as they are in my oppinion - Puppet Master, Ressurection, Implosion and Summon Phoenix are pretty powerfull spells.
So you've pretty much confirmed what I said - that dwellings are more important and mage guild lvl 5 is a endgame toy ^^
Plus, getting a crappy lvl5 spell is frustrating. ;x
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