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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Set Hero Upgrade Paths
Thread: Set Hero Upgrade Paths
scooter_me
scooter_me


Adventuring Hero
posted July 23, 2006 04:05 PM

Set Hero Upgrade Paths

well i only JUST figured this out, so im sure there may be some people who dont know it yet, but the hero's have a SET upgrade path. i just played with (the empowered magic hero for dungeon) and the first 10 levels gave me the EXACT same upgrade options as the last time i played as him. every possible upgrade choice was the same. but this is ONLY becaues i made the exact same choice each time as i did last time.

i was wondering if anyone has like a link to cool upgrade paths for specific heroes? i wana get teleport assalt ASAP from my sexy hydras, cause i just played a 7 hour subterranian treasure game, cleared out my whole section and beat 2 enemy main heroes in a row (i feel proud ) got to level 20 and still hadnt even got the logistics option let alone teleport assalt. my hydras feel useless except for when i reign armageddion when my hydras are my last remaining stack.

has anyone else noticed the NON-RANDOM upgrade paths of the heroes? does anyone know any good ones?

i did a search for this topic to see if it was already posted so please dont yell at me if it already has. ya never know, some people might read this and think "what a dumbass only just figured that out?"

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Haldowan
Haldowan


Adventuring Hero
posted July 23, 2006 04:18 PM
Edited by Haldowan at 16:24, 23 Jul 2006.

Lol, heroes do not have a fixed upgrade path, it would be so easy. They just have high percentage to get some skills and low percentage to never get others. Like War Machines for Sylvan, I got it at the 1st month once but when I replaid on the same map, it wasn't the same upgrades avaible.

What you've probably done is reset the map without leaving the game. In that case the upgrade path is fixed, you're right.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted July 23, 2006 04:22 PM
Edited by Maurice at 16:23, 23 Jul 2006.

That probably has to do with the random seed. I think it is determined each time a game is created and then used to calculate everything else. I think this is also the reason why weekly turns are always the same (save before a week turn, then end your turn, note the next week type; no matter how many times you load and end your turn, the next week type will always be the same ... same counts for Artifact Merchants - both in town and in the wagons - which get resupplied each month turn), or why battles will always have the same luck and morale benefits / penalties and battle damage, provided you make the same move every time.

The game just doesn't have a "true" random generator, which determines random numbers at the moment it needs them.

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Haldowan
Haldowan


Adventuring Hero
posted July 23, 2006 04:30 PM

Yes you're 100% right Maurice, and like other games, one day, somebody will find how to predict the next value of the numbers and cheating will go on. You will have to do some actions in order to have the right number before leveling up. It was the same thing about Fire Emblem : The Sacred Stones on GBA...

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scooter_me
scooter_me


Adventuring Hero
posted July 23, 2006 04:30 PM
Edited by scooter_me at 16:32, 23 Jul 2006.

well i believe you guys, but just to make sure im gana start a little project next weekend with a specific hero on 2 different maps for the first 15 upgrades. expect results to be posted here within a week and a few days


and maurice i did notice a lot of that information from replaying battles. i remember in heroes 3 you could reload and the week would be different so i guess thats more random.

ive been playing heroes 5 for about 1 week straight now and am still yet to recieve a week of the plague.

EDIT: the only reason i may doubt you guys is because you may have chosen a different skill for the 2nd level the next time you played throwing the upgrade path in a completely different direction.

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Klaital
Klaital


Known Hero
posted July 23, 2006 04:34 PM

I have seen week of the plague (and its less severe comrades, week of fever and week of disease) way too often.
____________

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Haldowan
Haldowan


Adventuring Hero
posted July 23, 2006 04:46 PM

You have a very nice .

Come back with numbers and data, it will be great for us all. Good luck .

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scooter_me
scooter_me


Adventuring Hero
posted July 23, 2006 05:17 PM

no numbers and data as of yet, but i will say you guys were right. no set paths. i got luck in my first upgrade...never happened before. but now im under the impression that the week u upgrade makes a difference as well... i think i need sleep. i will post upgrade reulst later though, i just know im wrong now.

i was thinking that set paths would be a good idea, so you could choose how you wanted to upg that way you dont have to try and get a skill, but rather know how to get 1.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted July 23, 2006 05:21 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 17:21, 23 Jul 2006.

the path is fixed for each game and is set in the beginning, BUT it doesn't matter anyway, since there is no reloading in multiplayer anyway. And for single player, well, after beating the campaigns I don't see any real challange in playing vs. such a dumb AI.


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Haldowan
Haldowan


Adventuring Hero
posted July 23, 2006 05:28 PM
Edited by Haldowan at 19:45, 23 Jul 2006.

You can load multiplayer maps in single play, and the reload button is avaible.

Edit : And no the week doesn't matter (I'm running stats at the moment).

Edit2 : After leveling up 50 times Rutger from level 1 to 2 I got this

Attributes
==========
Defense 19
Attack 15
Spirit 13
Spell Power 3

New skills
==========
Leadership 8
Attack 8
Luck 7
War machines 7
Defense 7
Summoning Magic 5
Dark Magic 3
Destruction Magic 2
Enlightment 2
Light Magic 1

Skill Upgrade
=============
Logistics 28
Counterstrike 22

Abilities
=========
Expert trainer 33
Benediction 32
Retaliation strike 35

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Izzachar
Izzachar


Adventuring Hero
posted July 24, 2006 02:12 AM
Edited by Izzachar at 02:31, 24 Jul 2006.

Trust me the ability choices the first time you are leveling upp (lv 1 - lv 2) are always different. Allready at that point youll see that it cannot be a fixed path. I lved Deleb upp numerous times with exp_cheat and the path towards the skills I want is always different. But there are ways making it easier for you to get what you want.

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scooter_me
scooter_me


Adventuring Hero
posted July 24, 2006 02:20 AM

good work haldowan, ima do that for sinitar tonight, maby we cold make a new post and collect these so people know what skills they're in for with each hero hehe. cause a lot of those skills came up a lot more often.

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kcwong
kcwong


Hired Hero
posted July 24, 2006 06:18 AM
Edited by kcwong at 06:20, 24 Jul 2006.

Random number generator (RNG) in software works this way:
- First pick a number. This number will be the seed.
- Put the seed through a chosen algorithm. A long series of numbers, between 0 (inclusive) and 1 (exclusive), will be generated. A cursor will point to the first of the list.
- Each time a random number is needed, the number pointed at by the cursor will be used. The cursor then moves to the next position.

The RNG described above is called Pseudo RNG... but usually just RNG.

e.g. I need a number between 2 and 5. So I multiply the random number from the list, say 0.593, with 3. Then add 2 to the result and round it to an integer. 0.593 x 3 + 2 = 3.779 = 4.

If the seed and algorithm are known, then yes, a hacker can reproduce the list of numbers... provide some random data generated then the hacker can find out where in the list you're at, and predict the next outcome.


In H5 (and many other strategy games, e.g. Civilization) the random seed is saved along with the cursor position. This way, you can't reload the game after a non-satisfactory result to hope for a better outcome. Therefore it is actually an anti-cheat mechanism. As long as you do things that require a random number in the same sequence, you will get the same result.

However, many actions in H5 requires a random number. Attacking, casting spells, see if a neutral stack will join you, which spells are in the guild, which heroes are added to the tarven, etc.

We don't know how the random numbers are used... we don't know all the forumlae yet. Perhaps some are generated as the game is created (e.g. mage guild content). Perhaps the game has multiple RNG for different purposes (e.g. one for adventure map and level up, one for battle calculations).

So even if the hacker/cheater can predict RNG results, it will be of very little use. He/she won't be able to tell where the cursor is (how many numbers have the opponents used up?) and how to use those numbers.

And in most cases, pseudo RNG is sufficient - they are random enough. If you can be sure you won't get sucky skills when you level up, then I would think the RNG is not really that random.

There're better RNGs... with more complex algorithms (called Secure RNG) and those that make use of noise from hardwares. But those are much slower than pseudo RNGs. They are usually used for things like generating cryptographic keys.

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scooter_me
scooter_me


Adventuring Hero
posted July 24, 2006 08:45 AM
Edited by scooter_me at 08:54, 24 Jul 2006.

thanks kcwong, it was an interesting read...

so people make programs to read what will be randomly generated to cheat? dont you have to be real smart? so there cant be all that many of them.

EDIT: before i go killing creatures 50 times, can someone tell me the upgrade cheat? LOL

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Haldowan
Haldowan


Adventuring Hero
posted July 24, 2006 09:04 AM
Edited by Haldowan at 09:17, 24 Jul 2006.

We only need ONE of them. Once info is released many people will use it. But kcwong is right, it is more likely that this game can't be so easily cheated using RNG. I told about Fire Emblem : The Sacred Stones, the cheat was to do a combination of cursor moves in order to set the numbers just before leveling up to have all stats increase (when leveling heroes have some percentage of increasing each stat). This can be harder with our game because of Windows' memory protection and memory size (how many and where are the RNG stored ?).

Edit : I do this by choosing a map, peninsula (don't know if it's the correct translation) and running after one knowledge building, the one which gives you +1000 XP. Then I closed the map and do it 50 times. There may be some mod avaible for easy leveling but my point is just to level from level 1 to 2, just to see what heroes are aiming for. I really think that some heroes will learn one skill more often than others in the same faction (obviously when both don't know it yet).

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kcwong
kcwong


Hired Hero
posted July 24, 2006 02:05 PM
Edited by kcwong at 14:12, 24 Jul 2006.

Quote:
thanks kcwong, it was an interesting read...

You're welcome... I'm a programmer, focused on data security, so this is my thing. OTOH I have trouble beating the Chaos campaign in H4. So I'm just contributing what I can.

Quote:

so people make programs to read what will be randomly generated to cheat? dont you have to be real smart? so there cant be all that many of them.

Nope, too much trouble. What bother with some numbers I don't even know how to use?

If I'm a hacker, I'll just edit my resources, army size, hero stat and be done with it. This can be done either by hacking the save game, the data in memory, or data sent out from the client during MP.

How easy it is depends on if Nival has any anti-cheat mechanism in there.

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scooter_me
scooter_me


Adventuring Hero
posted July 24, 2006 03:50 PM

Sinitars first upgrade 50 times, warlock class, dungeon faction,
Primary attribute – spell power
Secondary attribute – Attack.

Attributes:
===========
Attack – 18
Defence – 3
Spell power – 19
Knowledge – 10
==============
New Skills
==========
Luck – 4
Summoning magic – 10
War Machines – 8
Sorcery – 11
Attack – 8
Logistics – 3
Defence – 1
Enlightenment – 4
Leadership – 1
===============
Skill Upgrades
===============
Destructive magic – 30
Irresistible magic – 20
================
Abilities
============
Master of ice – 35
Master of storms – 35
Master of fire – 30

What is strange is even though Sinitar has 2 skills (irresistible magic and destrictive magic) EVERY single available ability was related to destructive magic. So there HAS to be some system stopping Sinitar from getting irresistible magic abilities early on. There’s no way chance would avoid them 50 times.

Also, logistics seems impossible to get with this hero. How am I gana teleport my hydras now?

Im reading the HUGE manual that you can buy with the heroes game and it says this, each hero type has a primary and secondary attribute. Any increase in attribute other than these 2 has a much smaller chance of happening
Primary attribute show first, followed by secondary attribute
Warlock/dungeon - Spell power – Attack
Squire/Dungeon – Defence – Attack
Ranger/Sylvan – Defence Knowledge
Wizzard/Academy – Knowledge – Spell Power
Demon Lord/Inferno – Attack – Knowledge
Necromancer/Necropolis – Spell Power – Defence

So as you can see both mine and haldowin’s attributes seemed to stick close to the mark.

Hope this helps people in some way

Expect another 1 for another warlock hero within the week to see if different skills show up more often within different heroes.

Luv

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kcwong
kcwong


Hired Hero
posted July 24, 2006 03:58 PM

I don't find it strange that the chance to get skills are biased. Some heroes have little use for some skills, and it fits the role-playing aspect - e.g. Warlocks should be pretty familiar with destruction magic but not light magic.

The actual values for the chance to get certain skills though, are open for discussion.

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Haldowan
Haldowan


Adventuring Hero
posted July 24, 2006 04:01 PM
Edited by Haldowan at 16:12, 24 Jul 2006.

Sinitar avoid 50 times to learn Irrestible Magic related spells because he already know Empowered Spells .

Good work though, I began with Deleb but I was rushing elemental stockpiles. You can see results in the guide to creeping topic : BASICS - Where do you find creeps ?.

Edit : You should replace Squire/Dungeon by Knight/Haven.

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