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| Thread: Armeggedon spell? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT» |
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erccmmo
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 25, 2006 12:09 AM |
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Armeggedon spell?
I was just wondering if there is anyway to protect your own troops from your own armmegedon spell... otherwise the spell seems fairly useless when comparing it to Implosion... I'm sure im just overlooking somthing blindingly obvious... but ah well...
tnx in advance!!!
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Haldowan
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 25, 2006 12:20 AM |
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Light magic and Defense my lil' brother.
Inferno and Sylvan heroes can learn Fire Protection (50%), and with Protection (15%) you will have 65% reduction of fire damage, sounds good huh ?
But the spell system is a big mess, Rangers don't have any spell power and can not imbue ballista with it. Demon Lords are not friendly with Light Magic.
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erccmmo
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 25, 2006 12:32 AM |
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thats all good and fun... but the two races that you mentioned dont specialize in Spellpower... rather disapointing...
Empowered Armegeddon just looks... so... yummy...
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Haldowan
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 25, 2006 12:53 AM |
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Edited by Haldowan at 00:56, 25 Jul 2006.
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I really think that they did this on purpose, they are so many inconsistencies with spells, skills and mage guild that it can't be otherwise.
Sylvan should have Summoning and Academy Destructive. Academy Heroes have the spell power to use Destrutive Magic. Besides Sylvan who is a defensive faction (treant, light magic, unicorn, hero attributes) will have good use of summoning, because they never learn damn War Machine Skill to get Imbue Ballista. They also have one hero specialized in summoning and none in Destructive. Big waste.
All heroes should be able to reach their ultimate. Ultimate requirements should be usefull too.
Some spells are overpowered and still not balanced. 
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juventas
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 25, 2006 01:27 AM |
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I had only one situation where Armageddon came in handy, and that is when I was completely outnumbered and outclassed against a sylvan army with 9 emerald dragons, 19 treants, 35 unicorns, 118 war dancers, and an assorted number of druids/master hunters. My most significant stack was 20 hydras, which turned out to be my saving grace. I tried so many ways to meteor storm and implode his units into oblivion, but I always ended up losing by one or two stacks. Finally, I used a phoenix feather cape and the staff of Sar Issus and empowered Armageddon. Wiped out everything on the first cast except 7 hydras, 8 unicorns and 8 treants. Implode dealt with the rest.
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yiron
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 25, 2006 04:55 AM |
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well, the only time i ever used armageddon was in 3rd mission of the dungeon, when i was caught with raelag alone at one of my towns which had only 6 black dragons left for recruiting, by an AI hero with tonnes of troops. Just trying my luck be4 loading an earlier save, i took the dragons n charged the AI hero. Using only empowered armageddon and letting my black dragons defend in 1 corner, I managed to kill off 80% of his troops by the 2nd armageddon casted(the highest he had was deep dragon), while killing off a few of my own black dragons in the process. The AI ran away in the end.
The only situation tat i would use armageddon offensively would be using a wizard with lots of obsidian statues, since obsidian statues r immune to fire and can take some beating(not tested though). Could be potent using Jhora.
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erccmmo
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 25, 2006 07:34 AM |
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I mean ultimatley with Armegeddon damaging your own troops you end up using 4th lvl spells...
and concidering that you spent all those lvl ups to get a lvl 5 spell and there is only a 50/50 of getting a usefull destruction spell for lvl 5... its just not good...
just look at it this way... 2 dark elves online play eachother... they have the same exact lvl... army city... everything... but one gets armmegedon and the other gets implossion...
assuming that they are equally good at tactics the guy with implossion will win through sheer artirtion...
just based on what spells he was given by random chance...
ARG!!!
I can't stand that obvious miss balance...
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 25, 2006 12:56 PM |
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True enough.Strangely armageddon works wonders with necropolis.I had raven cast a couple of armageddons then raise dead on my massive skellie stack against a powerful academy army.From 500 skellies I ultimately lost 100 and got a portion back from eternal servitude .All other factions either don't have sufficient spellpower to cast it(and cause considerable damage) or cannot protect themselves from it(or even resurrect their fallen troops).Unfortunately implosion is more useful in most situations so it's a matter of luck(or lack of it ).At least with exp irresistible spells blackies get only half of it and one can consider which ability he can do away with so as not to get the skill above expert.What the developers should do would be to let us learn powerful spells from outside guilds such as spell scrolls(very few to my experience),pandora boxes,more buildings with guardians etc.Once upon a time we would learn magic skills without knowing what we'll find and they always paid off-not anymore...
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 25, 2006 01:20 PM |
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I cannot help but regard it as something akin to a bug that Irresistable Magic will make your Dragons vulnerable to Armageddon. They probably did it on purpose, but I think it's a mistake. It would be like if you chose Deffense > Resistance, and then your troups resisted when you tried to use Haste or Divine Strength on them or another usefull spell. Doh!
It would make more sense in terms of gameplay to let your Black Dragons still be immune to your own (harmfull) spells. After all, the only ones who ever really used Armageddon previously were the Warlocks and the Elementalists.
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dschingi
Famous Hero
the guy with the dragon golem
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posted July 25, 2006 01:29 PM |
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Edited by dschingi at 13:45, 25 Jul 2006.
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I think the only ways to use armageddon without causalties would be
- Black Dragons (not as a Warlock)
- Griffins with Battle Dive
- maybe expert Magic Immunity spell (not tested)
- ... resurrect your troops
All these cases are not given in an average game so you can just try to minimize losses. With the Iceberg Shield (that artifact with 50% fire resistance) and the Phoenix Feather this spell could be quite devastating in final battle, though.
Edit:
I just noticed Armageddon does additional damage to creatures in the center of the battlefield (4x4 tiles, large creatures have to be in there with all 4 tiles to receive damage). The additional damage equals the normal damage of Armageddon, but it seems not to be affected by magic resistance. So it does full damage to all creatures like Golems, but not to immune creatures. It also ignores hero's skills reducing magic damage (I don't know about artifacts reducing damage). This additional damage seems not to work with Empowered Armageddon.
So Armageddon could be quite useful if some of the enemy creatures are in the middle of the battlefield.
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open source for an open mind
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 25, 2006 03:15 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 15:20, 25 Jul 2006.
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Quote:
I cannot help but regard it as something akin to a bug that Irresistable Magic will make your Dragons vulnerable to Armageddon. They probably did it on purpose, but I think it's a mistake. It would be like if you chose Deffense > Resistance, and then your troups resisted when you tried to use Haste or Divine Strength on them or another usefull spell. Doh!
That's because casting (mass)haste/divine strength is not (nearly)as good as casting armageddon with a black dragon stack and receiving no damage
After all destruction usually has a double edge!One more thing:A warlock needs strength of numbers less than anyone so he has little to lose when fighting a might hero.And can do better than most with few creatures as well.
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dfortae
Known Hero
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posted July 25, 2006 04:03 PM |
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First of all, implosion can be reflected back to YOUR units if the defending hero has magic mirror. VERY nasty. Area attack spells do not have this problem, they can just be resisted.
Secondly, the units in the middle of the battle field do NOT have to be large creatures, they can be small creatures just within the area where the Armageddon meteor drops.
Thirdly, take over a 2nd town and get the black dragons. Don't be a warlock and your black dragons will be immune.
Finally, if you ARE a warlock, put the black dragons on a hero that DOESN'T have Armageddon and go creeping neutrals and attack other things. This will make you not loose a single unit since black dragons are so strong. Then, for the final battle or whatever, DON'T use Armageddon when you put the black dragons back on your strongest warlock hero.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 25, 2006 04:23 PM |
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BTW is it confirmed that armageddon causes double damage in the centre?If so does it affect otherwise fire-immune creatures?(the meteor part)
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dfortae
Known Hero
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posted July 25, 2006 05:12 PM |
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Quote:
BTW is it confirmed that armageddon causes double damage in the centre?If so does it affect otherwise fire-immune creatures?(the meteor part)
I'm not 100% positive, but like 95%. I know for sure you see IMMEDIATE damage on the creature in the middle. I also know it bypasses any kind of immunity (can't resist). I THOUGHT I saw it then ALSO do extra damage, but I can't be sure. If you want an easy way to test it, setup a hotseat duel with yourself. Pick someone that has the spell, then make the other side move a unit to the middle. That will get us the answer.
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dschingi
Famous Hero
the guy with the dragon golem
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posted July 25, 2006 05:22 PM |
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Edited by dschingi at 17:41, 25 Jul 2006.
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Quote:
Secondly, the units in the middle of the battle field do NOT have to be large creatures, they can be small creatures just within the area where the Armageddon meteor drops.
I didn't say they have to be large. Just that large creatures have to be in this 4x4 area completely, otherwise they won't take 2x damage.
Quote:
BTW is it confirmed that armageddon causes double damage in the centre?If so does it affect otherwise fire-immune creatures?(the meteor part)
The additional damage for creatures in the center deals full damage to all creatures except Black Dragons and Obsidian Gargoyles. If the Gargoyles belong to you, they also receive damage (it's the same with the normal Armageddon damage).
If you are a Warlock, the additional damage deals full damage to ALL creatures in the center, even if you have Irresistable Magic just at basic level.
EDIT:
I was wrong when I said that the additional damage can't be resisted! It can, like every other spell.
But
- If it's not resisted, it does full damage. Magic damage reductions are ignored
- If a Warlock is casting Armageddon it does FULL damage even if it's resisted
Note this is only about the additional damage in the middle of the battlefield.
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open source for an open mind
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 25, 2006 07:42 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Secondly, the units in the middle of the battle field do NOT have to be large creatures, they can be small creatures just within the area where the Armageddon meteor drops.
I didn't say they have to be large. Just that large creatures have to be in this 4x4 area completely, otherwise they won't take 2x damage.
Quote:
BTW is it confirmed that armageddon causes double damage in the centre?If so does it affect otherwise fire-immune creatures?(the meteor part)
The additional damage for creatures in the center deals full damage to all creatures except Black Dragons and Obsidian Gargoyles. If the Gargoyles belong to you, they also receive damage (it's the same with the normal Armageddon damage).
If you are a Warlock, the additional damage deals full damage to ALL creatures in the center, even if you have Irresistable Magic just at basic level.
EDIT:
I was wrong when I said that the additional damage can't be resisted! It can, like every other spell.
But
- If it's not resisted, it does full damage. Magic damage reductions are ignored
- If a Warlock is casting Armageddon it does FULL damage even if it's resisted
Note this is only about the additional damage in the middle of the battlefield.
I just tested it myself in a duel with Sinitar.When not fighting a hero with resistance the black dragons receive 195 dmg(half) and the others 390.When the opponent has resistance some of his creatures may get 195 so I assume they only take half dmg when res triggers.The funny thing is that opponent with protection(eg Marbas) has his creatures take 362 normally and 195(half of 390 not 362) with resistance.The ones(any creature that has a part of it in the meteor crashing square) who occupy the center receive 2 armageddons worth of damage(390+390) and if it is the black dragon then he only receives 195+390.Intriguing
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dschingi
Famous Hero
the guy with the dragon golem
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posted July 25, 2006 08:27 PM |
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Quote:
I just tested it myself in a duel with Sinitar.When not fighting a hero with resistance the black dragons receive 195 dmg(half) and the others 390.When the opponent has resistance some of his creatures may get 195 so I assume they only take half dmg when res triggers.The funny thing is that opponent with protection(eg Marbas) has his creatures take 362 normally and 195(half of 390 not 362) with resistance.The ones(any creature that has a part of it in the meteor crashing square) who occupy the center receive 2 armageddons worth of damage(390+390) and if it is the black dragon then he only receives 195+390.Intriguing
Actually I already explained it. Maybe it's because I am not very handy with English language... but I'm doing my best.
Your Black Dragons received half damage because of Sinitar's Irresistable Magic skill. With magic resistance triggered on enemy creatures it's the same, 50% dmg. Of course against Marbas the damage is reduced because of Protection skill.
For the "little" 2nd Armageddon in the center: It is calculated seperately. It always deals full damage or nothing. It is a bit strange I know, because with a Warlock with Irresistable Magic will always do at least a bit damage with Destructive spells, but as it is ALL or NOTHING with this 2nd Armageddon also Black Dragons receive full damage here.
If you play Raven vs. Ossir in duel mode you will easily find out Ossir's troops can evade "both Armageddons" with magic resistance.
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open source for an open mind
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 25, 2006 09:02 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
I cannot help but regard it as something akin to a bug that Irresistable Magic will make your Dragons vulnerable to Armageddon. They probably did it on purpose, but I think it's a mistake. It would be like if you chose Deffense > Resistance, and then your troups resisted when you tried to use Haste or Divine Strength on them or another usefull spell. Doh!
That's because casting (mass)haste/divine strength is not (nearly)as good as casting armageddon with a black dragon stack and receiving no damage
After all destruction usually has a double edge!One more thing:A warlock needs strength of numbers less than anyone so he has little to lose when fighting a might hero.And can do better than most with few creatures as well.
Are you serious? Armageddon - and all destructive magic - sucks in late game. If you're fighting a large size army, Armageddon will not help you one bit. But try to use Divine Strength on your legion of Marksmen ...
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 26, 2006 12:20 AM |
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My games never drag on like this.Despite the fact that destructive helps mostly earlygame I always search for a swift strike when the opportunity arises.Of course if we fight with a 20 week worth's armies each,you light-me destructive I will lose and not just barely.That is probably not going to happen because I could attack frequently with a small army and cast a couple of well placed implosions or meteor showers to weaken your army first.
But what I don't get is how you can compare a 5th lvl spell which has been let's say 'balanced' with a 1st lvl one.You even jest that a penalty should be applied to it?Maybe it should gain one when your army exceeds a limit,yes that would be fun! Remember phoenix cape and master of fire.Plus by the time you get armageddon both armies can't be too large-in most cases anyway.I don't particularly love armageddon but cannot deny its usefulness when the time is right.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 26, 2006 12:23 AM |
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Quote:
Actually I already explained it. Maybe it's because I am not very handy with English language... but I'm doing my best.
Your Black Dragons received half damage because of Sinitar's Irresistable Magic skill. With magic resistance triggered on enemy creatures it's the same, 50% dmg. Of course against Marbas the damage is reduced because of Protection skill.
For the "little" 2nd Armageddon in the center: It is calculated seperately. It always deals full damage or nothing. It is a bit strange I know, because with a Warlock with Irresistable Magic will always do at least a bit damage with Destructive spells, but as it is ALL or NOTHING with this 2nd Armageddon also Black Dragons receive full damage here.
If you play Raven vs. Ossir in duel mode you will easily find out Ossir's troops can evade "both Armageddons" with magic resistance.
No you explained it fine I just wanted to add the numbers to complete the picture.You get the credits!
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