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| Thread: Irresistible magic - a knife with two edges |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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scooter_me
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 09, 2006 06:41 AM |
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Still, implosion has nothing to do with earth. i'd rather see it as a chaos spell, or smth like that.. 
does to! it sucks all the earth into one TIGHT ASSED spot and releases it  thats a lot of earth flying everywhere... atleast that how i saw it...
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted August 09, 2006 09:03 AM |
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Implosion means some very local, very hard gravity towards the center of the implosion. Earth is about gravity more than any other element (heavier than water or air, and fire is just a product of a fuel combined with air). I think it makes sense that Implosion is an earth spell.
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Finarfinn
Hired Hero
son of Finve
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posted August 09, 2006 12:55 PM |
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If Fist of Wrath does physical damage on creatures, then their Defence must prevent a part of this damage. It is logical. But in the game it dosent work, and there are a lot of similar inexactnesses.
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Shauku83
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted August 09, 2006 04:26 PM |
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Fist of Wrath doesn't include Attack and Defence modifiers, it is just so simple. Phantom Forces are created by magic, but it has ethereal (both magical and physical) substance and inflicts physical damage.
Black Dragons are immune to magic, it is not very complicated. Elemental damage = magical damage. Curse cannot target Dragon, it is a spell. Ice bolt cannot target a dragon. What do Ice Bolt and Curse have common? They both try to make a magical effect on the DRAGON. Bless gives an effect on the Elves, it affects the Elves capacity to inflict damage. The elves themselves do PHYSICAL damage, even though blessed. They do not inflict magical damage like Cold Steel (elemental damage = magical damage). Try to understand the difference alcibiades.
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dfortae
Known Hero
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posted August 09, 2006 04:40 PM |
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I wouldn't have and don't have a problem with a black dragon being immune to SPELLS. All they should do for the graphics is show some kind of force field around the dragon when something tries to hit it. Make it a "magical" barrier of some kind. If stone spikes try to hit it, the dragon somehow "senses" the spell being cast, and an instant force field appears around it. No problems there.
The problem is they make it look like the graphics actually HIT the dragon. I'm sorry, but a stone spike embedding into the bottom of a dragon will hurt it. Therefore, if they would simply update the graphics so a force field appeared and the spikes BROKE against it, I'd be happy.
In the PHYSICAL world (our universe), ALL things are physics and energy related. You CANNOT resist gravity (earth spells). Even light cannot escape black holes so how could a creature? If the creature is made of atoms, gravity affects it. Plain and simple. I'm talking about Implosion by the way. Also, heat if the speed of atoms bouncing around and how high their electron clouds get. ANYTHING made of atoms can be "destroyed" by being morphed into a different form (breaking their shape/structure) if heat is high enough. Same with the force of cold ice spikes falling on something. Unless it's a shadow, ghost, etc., it WILL take the force exherted by the ice spike.
ALL of that stuff can be negated if there is a magical force field that appears around the target. We can all accept a magical force field as being something NOT OF THIS UNIVERSE and outside the realms of physics I think. I just think it's silly when they don't at least go with the laws of physics...
Wow this topic really has gone on for a long time.
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Finarfinn
Hired Hero
son of Finve
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posted August 09, 2006 05:06 PM |
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"The elves do PHYSICAL damage." OK.
Fist of Wrath also do physical damage. Heroes's prymary attribute Defence adds to creature's Defence. Physical damage, inflicted on any creature in battles, depends on creature's Defance. So...
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Shauku83
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted August 09, 2006 05:45 PM |
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Edited by Shauku83 at 17:46, 09 Aug 2006.
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Quote:
"The elves do PHYSICAL damage." OK.
Fist of Wrath also do physical damage. Heroes's prymary attribute Defence adds to creature's Defence. Physical damage, inflicted on any creature in battles, depends on creature's Defance. So...
The Grim Raiders charge negates Defence. Do you have something against that?
Edit: Grim Raiders do physical damage 
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Finarfinn
Hired Hero
son of Finve
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posted August 09, 2006 05:52 PM |
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[quote
The Grim Raiders charge negates Defence. Do you have something against that?
Edit: Grim Raiders do physical damage
But Fist of Wrath doesen't negate Defence. It simply does physical damage, just like the Elfs
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Shauku83
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted August 09, 2006 06:14 PM |
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Quote:
[quote
The Grim Raiders charge negates Defence. Do you have something against that?
Edit: Grim Raiders do physical damage
But Fist of Wrath doesen't negate Defence. It simply does physical damage, just like the Elfs
No, it simply doesn't do damage like the elves. It is a spell. The damage it does is physical in nature.
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Finarfinn
Hired Hero
son of Finve
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posted August 09, 2006 06:32 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
[quote
The Grim Raiders charge negates Defence. Do you have something against that?
Edit: Grim Raiders do physical damage
But Fist of Wrath doesen't negate Defence. It simply does physical damage, just like the Elfs
No, it simply doesn't do damage like the elves. It is a spell. The damage it does is physical in nature.
But 1:"The elves themselves do PHYSICAL damage" and 2:"The damage it
(the Fist of Wrath) does is physical in nature". So 1 = 2!
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted August 09, 2006 06:40 PM |
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Quote:
Fist of Wrath doesn't include Attack and Defence modifiers, it is just so simple. Phantom Forces are created by magic, but it has ethereal (both magical and physical) substance and inflicts physical damage.
Black Dragons are immune to magic, it is not very complicated. Elemental damage = magical damage. Curse cannot target Dragon, it is a spell. Ice bolt cannot target a dragon. What do Ice Bolt and Curse have common? They both try to make a magical effect on the DRAGON. Bless gives an effect on the Elves, it affects the Elves capacity to inflict damage. The elves themselves do PHYSICAL damage, even though blessed. They do not inflict magical damage like Cold Steel (elemental damage = magical damage). Try to understand the difference alcibiades.
You speak of this as if there is only one way to consider these things, but there is not. It is an interpretation of a Fantasy element into Real World logics and physical rules, and my oppinion is exactly as valid as yours. Let me give you some examples of the inconsistency in the was it's presented now.
Consider an Ice Bolt. The Black Dragon cannot be targeted by an Ice Bolt, because it is immune to magic. Very well. But you can make an Ice Bolt beside it. You might even make an Ice Bolt above it. In fact, if you made an Ice Bolt above it, it would probably fall down and strike the Dragon. Now think further. You can target a Fire Ball right beside the Dragon. It won't hurt the Dragon, but the Dragon is still within the area of effect. You cannot target a Fireball right on top of the Dragon, however. And even if you can, how come you can target a Fireball on the Dragon, but not the Ice Bolt? There is no logic in that.
Now, think further to the Stone Spikes spell. This spell materializes a set of spikes, that shoot forth from the ground. How come these spikes will not damage the Dragon? It will, after all, take damage if you plunge a pike (or a sword) through it. And how come you cannot materialize an Ice Bolt above it - and if you did, would it harm the Dragon, or would it not? And if it wouldn't, how come, when you can harm it by throwing a boulder at it?
And what about fire. There is no indication that the Dragon is immune to Fire. Then how come it doesn't take damage from the Fire Ball? After all, for all the talk about magical damage, whenever you conjure a Fire Ball, it will cause an explosion of real fire. It will ignite the grass and your clothing. It might even damage your armor. How come, then, that it will not harm the Dragon?
Of course, you can just wave the magical want and invoke this "magical immunity". But logically, it does not make sense to me. That is why I say, be gone with magical immunity, and separate it into Magical Resistance and Elemental Immunity. It won't change the game, really - you can still give the Dragon 100 % Magical Resistance and full Elemental Immunity - it'll just make more sense. And it'll make sense that Emerald Dragons are immune to Earth, because Earth are "their" element (the do Acid damage, which is the traditional materialization of the element Earth). Similarly, let the Black Dragons have 100 % Magical Resistance and furthermore Fire immunity - that is "their" element. Let the Titans have Mind Spell resistance and Lightning immunity. Let the Silver Dragons, if such ones ever come into play, have Cold immunity.
That would be much more logical, and furthermore, it'll add to gameplay, because your Black Dragons will STILL be resistant to Armageddon, even though you or the enemy has levels in Irresistable Magic - because IM will only affect the Magical Resistance, and not the Elemental Immunity! It might even open up for a new ability, Irrestistable Elements, to give you a chance to do elemental damage to creatures normally immune to that Element.
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Finarfinn
Hired Hero
son of Finve
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posted August 09, 2006 07:12 PM |
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You propose realy interesting ideas. However, HMM5 is still undeveloped, but future is before this game.
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Shauku83
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted August 09, 2006 07:46 PM |
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Yes. I do see these things differently. Because Air is really no element, neither is Earth in the real world aka the world we live in. There are no such things as elements of Fire, Ice, Air and Fire. The ancients (Greek Philosophers atleast) divided the world into these elements, but they didn't mean that fire as element was fire as it appears in nature.
In game the spells like Fireball are made of Magic, magic that is divided in this game into those elements. So ice exists in Ashan for sure, but Ice Bolt is made of the ELEMENT of ICE (which is magical)
Surely a Dragon will die if a cave (of earth) collapses on top of it. But a spell like Stone Spikes is not made of ground, but of element Earth, which is like air (not the element ) to the dragon.
Ofcource the visuals of the spells look devastating, but I do want to see my spells take effect. Afterall spells without visuals would be quite dull in a computer game.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted August 09, 2006 07:59 PM |
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Quote:
Yes. I do see these things differently. Because Air is really no element, neither is Earth in the real world aka the world we live in. There are no such things as elements of Fire, Ice, Air and Fire. The ancients (Greek Philosophers atleast) divided the world into these elements, but they didn't mean that fire as element was fire as it appears in nature.
In game the spells like Fireball are made of Magic, magic that is divided in this game into those elements. So ice exists in Ashan for sure, but Ice Bolt is made of the ELEMENT of ICE (which is magical)
Surely a Dragon will die if a cave (of earth) collapses on top of it. But a spell like Stone Spikes is not made of ground, but of element Earth, which is like air (not the element ) to the dragon.
Ofcource the visuals of the spells look devastating, but I do want to see my spells take effect. Afterall spells without visuals would be quite dull in a computer game.
That is not the correct interpretation if you go to traditional Role Playing Games like Dungeon And Dragons. In the traditional RPG world, when you create a fireball, the spell creates a real (physical) explosion of fire, that will scorch the surroundings and also combust the air. There is imo. no reason to believe the Heroes 5 spells should not be similar - after all, you will see a scorch-mark on the ground where the fireball is targeted.
In a similar vain, the Ice Bolt will create a block (bolt) of Ice that is very much a physical piece of Ice, with all the implications that may have for the targeted creature (physical damage as well as cold/freezing effects). I can therefore only say, I do not agree with you interpretation that the spells do damage through "magic" (whatever that is) only - as I see it, the conjure a very real physical effect, that will harm whatever creature they are targeted at, unless it is immune to that particular form of elemental influence. And that is my interpretation - I might be as wrong as you (but it does match what I see through visuals in the game).
And as for the ancient Greek interpretation of the elements - well, I'm neither ancient nor Greek, but afaik, the elements Air, Earth, Fire and Water referred very much to the relevant "substances" (for as much as fire can be called a substance) that we have in our living world.
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Shauku83
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted August 09, 2006 09:16 PM |
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Edited by Shauku83 at 21:17, 09 Aug 2006.
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That is not the correct interpretation if you go to traditional Role Playing Games like Dungeon And Dragons. In the traditional RPG world, when you create a fireball, the spell creates a real (physical) explosion of fire, that will scorch the surroundings and also combust the air. There is imo. no reason to believe the Heroes 5 spells should not be similar - after all, you will see a scorch-mark on the ground where the fireball is targeted.
The explosion may be fire, but it is a mistake to say it is physical. In Heroes it is elemental, which is magical (hence Magic resistance works on those spells too). Actually, all destruction spells are magical. They can just be categorised into different elements, nothing more. That is because of abilities (Master of Fire etc.) and Dungeon racial ofcourse.
Quote:
In a similar vain, the Ice Bolt will create a block (bolt) of Ice that is very much a physical piece of Ice, with all the implications that may have for the targeted creature (physical damage as well as cold/freezing effects). I can therefore only say, I do not agree with you interpretation that the spells do damage through "magic" (whatever that is) only - as I see it, the conjure a very real physical effect, that will harm whatever creature they are targeted at, unless it is immune to that particular form of elemental influence. And that is my interpretation - I might be as wrong as you (but it does match what I see through visuals in the game).
Again you say it is physical, but it is clearly stated that only Fist of Wrath does physical damage. You rely solely on the visuals, agreed they look devastating and the blocks weight alone would damage anything in our world. So I understand that you can't accept it as it is. I say it is magical, and that is my interpretation.
Quote:
And as for the ancient Greek interpretation of the elements - well, I'm neither ancient nor Greek, but afaik, the elements Air, Earth, Fire and Water referred very much to the relevant "substances" (for as much as fire can be called a substance) that we have in our living world.
It is more commonly thought that they spoke of Earth, Fire, Air and Water being the building blocks of the Universe in a metaphorical sence. (they can be seen as the forms how matter manifests; Earth-Solid, Water-Liquid, Air-Gas, Fire-Plasma). For example they surely didn't believe that a human was formed when they threw Water into Fire. I hope you give them more credit than that  But maybe we shouldn't go so far from the actual topic, even though it is fun.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted August 10, 2006 12:03 AM |
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(they can be seen as the forms how matter manifests; Earth-Solid, Water-Liquid, Air-Gas, Fire-Plasma).
I sincerely doubt that the ancient Greeks knew anything about plasma
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted August 10, 2006 12:04 AM |
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Just one short comment - I was not referring to "Heroes V" world, but rather Role Playing world in general, when I talked about Fireball explosion being real fire etc. You state with certainty that "In Heroes 5, all magic done is magical damage" and that "all elemental damage is magical" but just how do we define 'magical damage' and why couldn't elemental damage just as well be physical damage in the sense of heat damage, cold damage or lightning damage - or phrased in another way, as I see it physical damage covers both 'standard' physical damage (done by weapons) but also heat/frost/electricity effects - ie. elemental damage.
Also, my point concerns not so much how it is in the game as it is now, but rather, how they should have made it in order for it to make sense, with real world logics and also with internal gameplay properties. Your representation is probably pretty much what the developers thought of, when they made it - I'm just saying, it doesn't make that much sense to me.
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Finarfinn
Hired Hero
son of Finve
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posted August 10, 2006 10:55 AM |
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I know one man, who can solve all problems about magic and balance in the game
His name is Jon Van Caneghem
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hobowu
Known Hero
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posted August 10, 2006 11:26 AM |
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Acid should be acid. H4 elements were superior, it's more "logical" to say implosion is a chaos damage spell than earth spell.. if someone actually cares for that, of course, and if it makes any difference ^_^
yeh... but chaos isn't an element...
Elements (according the the greek mythology that MM and HOMM is mainly based on) are air, earth, water, fire and gold
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hobowu
Known Hero
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posted August 10, 2006 11:31 AM |
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Consider for instance Obsidian Gargoyles: They are made of stone, and are therefore not affected by Fire, Cold or Lightning. Ergo, they are immune to these spells, which has nothing to do with Magical Immunity - the spell is formed, it just does nothing to the Gargoyle.
Actually, ice bolt does do damage to gargoyles... they just do less damage than they usually do... hence this proves that ice bolt is partly physical damage (the ice falling down), and partly magical freeze/cold damage
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