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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Faction Counters
Thread: Faction Counters This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted August 17, 2006 01:00 PM
Edited by Elvin at 14:58, 17 Aug 2006.

Faction Counters

I've been feeling slightly bored this morning so I thought I'd list some counters against factions/spells/creatures.While not easy to realise in a multiplayer game H5 has amazing potential that is usually hampered by either lack of xp or unlucky circumstances(unfavourable lvl ups,rare skills).Assuming we created a  lvl 30 hero from scratch it would be easy to see the variety of useful skill combos even though it could be foolish to start the hero with this line-up in mind.With this in mind it seems that any strategy has a counter,easy to apply or not.

Academy:
Against haven it seems to be in disadvantage(well it is a little) but still has some tricks up its sleeve.
Many people fear a massive stack of marksmen Usually to deal with that one uses Destructive with Master of Storms to slow them down or Dark with Confusion hoping the enemy's cleansing will fail.It is also possible to get Defence for Evasion and Summoning with Wall of Fog causing them to deal 30% less damage with 10% less initiative.

One of the things that troubled me was that a knight with light would kick my light wizard's ass.But a knight typically has little knowledge so getting Supress Light should cause him to run out of mana faster considering his mass spells would cost 20 mana.To hasten the process casting mass Dark spells would make him cast mass spells for counter.Similarly a seal of Darkness can disrupt a necromancer's plans.

Another threat can be a powerful ballista in the hands of say Deleb,Vittorio or a sylvan hero with a 'triple imbued' ballista.War machines with Remote Control can surprise your unfortunate opponent.Hopefully he won't have other war machines-imagine getting his first aid tent!I wonder if your Flaming arrows(attack) comes into play or if the ballista loses the abilities your opponent had But your high knowledge ensures you will deal good damage anyway.

I have mentioned that recently but a wizard can neutralise Destructive  magic.Sorcery with Counterspell,luck with resistance or Magic Mirror for preventing it,Defence's Protection and Destruction's Sap magic for reduction up to 35%.An armageddon would work fine especially with Master of Fire.The already resistant golems and the immune gargoyles help a bit too.

Finally the a Destructive wizard seems to be able to stun/freeze/armor damage two or more stacks at a time with Master of Storms/Ice/Fire and a well placed Mark of the Wizard.Not as effective as a sylvan's triple imbued ballista but easier to get and more powerful.

That's it for now.Until I get another fit of boredom!
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RectusDominus
RectusDominus


Adventuring Hero
posted August 17, 2006 01:49 PM

ye can't mirror a meteor shower or a fireball, and counterspell is real bad for hero's initiative so I think dungeon like all other castles will woop academy's arse
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted August 17, 2006 02:55 PM

Quote:
ye can't mirror a meteor shower or a fireball, and counterspell is real bad for hero's initiative so I think dungeon like all other castles will woop academy's arse


You like dwarves don't you? Real bad?Allow me to disagree.The warlock is forced to attack directly or simply waste his spell points next turn which seems an accomplishment to me.It can buy you time to cast a mass spell and gain the upper hand.But if you believe you can win a destructive showdown with a warlock who am I to say otherwise?
AoE spells have this little problem but there is still resistance(I forgot to add it) and the reduction I mentioned.I never claimed that with all these abilities you are immune but as protected as one could hope to be(without adding resistance (mini)artifacts).
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RectusDominus
RectusDominus


Adventuring Hero
posted August 17, 2006 03:51 PM

buy time? u can counter one spell but shortly after another spell->meteor will hit u
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Unixmage
Unixmage


Known Hero
Demon Slayer
posted August 17, 2006 06:07 PM

What's the best way to beat mages with necros? They always go for my archers with loads of debuffs and fireballs.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted August 17, 2006 06:17 PM

You must be referring to the effects of sorcery.That's right he'll get some free spells but most will blocked if I keep doing that.In the whole battle he'll cast a few spells which won't hit many of my stacks since I won't place them in tight formations.Eventually he will run out and I will start spamming resurrection or raise dead with my (almost)endless mana.Bwahahaha!!Ok things may not happen exactly like that because of artifacts and other luck factors but by the end of the battle I will have a really pissed warlock bent on strangling me!
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TowerLord
TowerLord


Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted August 17, 2006 06:25 PM

Cleansing does not fail, if you have expert Light Magic .

Anyway good post. Academy needs this kind of posts, maybe in the end we can find something that fits them well, so they can stand a chance against other towns .

ArchMages are great, and I like Rajas very much too. Even Genies , with their numbers and high dmg, are nice ... Master Gremlins are among top lvl1, Gargoyles have their uses , and Golems are nice tanks !

So in the end maybe there is hope... We only need to figure out what to do with all that knowledge the heroes have, how to put it to good use!

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted August 17, 2006 06:33 PM

Quote:
What's the best way to beat mages with necros? They always go for my archers with loads of debuffs and fireballs.


Not entirely sure.A few thing for sure though:
ALWAYS take spirit link lest you run out of mana.Enlightenment->intelligence can help.So can taking scholar.Even if you don't get raise dead Vladimir will appear in your tavern sooner or later.With summoning you should be able to resurrect more than you lose.
Boneward from sorcery and protection from defence can help against destructive based wizards.Also vitality adds +2 to skellie health.
If you get battle frenzy with archery and the previous you should be fine.And try to make use of the undead transformer(don't remember name).Just turn all you can find to undead
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted August 17, 2006 06:40 PM
Edited by Elvin at 20:12, 17 Aug 2006.

Quote:
Cleansing does not fail, if you have expert Light Magic .

Anyway good post. Academy needs this kind of posts, maybe in the end we can find something that fits them well, so they can stand a chance against other towns .

ArchMages are great, and I like Rajas very much too. Even Genies , with their numbers and high dmg, are nice ... Master Gremlins are among top lvl1, Gargoyles have their uses , and Golems are nice tanks !

So in the end maybe there is hope... We only need to figure out what to do with all that knowledge the heroes have, how to put it to good use!


Thanks! Yes academy is too cool to be dismissed as weak.In H2 and H4 it was my favourite!Eventually if played right it should just be challenging in the beginning.
Actually what seems to be the problem(from my point of view) is the cost for the final dwelling and its upgrade.Nobody buys colossi but it is imperative to accumulate them for buying titans later on.In the meantime  all other factions will have gained an advantage.50000 is too hard to come by but fortunately few resourses are required which means you can either build up mage guilds or mini artifacts.If only colossi and titans' dwelling cost was 5000 gold less for each.
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Izzachar
Izzachar


Adventuring Hero
posted August 17, 2006 08:17 PM
Edited by Izzachar at 20:21, 17 Aug 2006.

For necros another way to have lots of mana is getting arcane exellence. Gives you +100 mana and +2 SP. It requires boneward and magic insight. Both are very good for necro.

An ability like this will ALWAYS appear in the ability choices screen as long as you dont get another "special" ability. So you can just save it there untill you know that there will be a big battle, lv upp once more and get 100 mana

This way you dont need to get dark magic and can rely on summoning magic + raise dead spell (vlad) and sorcery. If you manage to get alot of skelletons you will be very hard to kill. Picking defence or attack is always hard with necro (if you have sorcery+summoning you can practially only get one more). +2hp is nice for skellies but if you rez them you gotta rez those hp aswell so it might not help you that much. 15% less damage from spells is nice +20% from boneward. Or attack +1 damage to skellies it makes a huuge difference, double damage in the lower damage range and 50% more in upper range. SO if original damage is 500-1000 you now deal 1000-1500. I have no idea how effective the 35%+ magic damage reduction is vs dungeon. Maybe its better just to go for all out damage on skellies and take his creatures out as fast as possible.

The problem for me with academy is building both dwellings and mage guild and artifacts. I can never get enough resources for that the few times I played them. What are you supposed to prioritize anyway? Spells, creatures? I have really no idea

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted August 17, 2006 08:58 PM
Edited by Elvin at 21:05, 17 Aug 2006.

Quote:
For necros another way to have lots of mana is getting arcane exellence. Gives you +100 mana and +2 SP. It requires boneward and magic insight. Both are very good for necro.

An ability like this will ALWAYS appear in the ability choices screen as long as you dont get another "special" ability. So you can just save it there untill you know that there will be a big battle, lv upp once more and get 100 mana

The problem for me with academy is building both dwellings and mage guild and artifacts. I can never get enough resources for that the few times I played them. What are you supposed to prioritize anyway? Spells, creatures? I have really no idea


Nice idea! But one has to be careful he has no basic abilities that lead to more advanced ones and if so not the skill required(adv/exp) to get one.Plus lvls don't came on demand so it could be risky but it could work.
It is usually prudent to build dwellings first,then upgrading/building mage guilds.If you go for titans you'd rather build mage guilds because you'll need the money.If you think you'll be bullrushed it could be better to upg mages,gargoyles,golems maybe gremlins(too much ore dammit!) for the extra health.I only build mage guild 2 in second week for raise dead,lightning bolt,dispel or decay.The rest can wait for a while at least until lvl 10 for summon creatures.Artifacts only when I have the resourses and with only 1 property,say health for gremlins/speed for rakshasas.I can always return to dismantle them in exchange for my resourses.
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Izzachar
Izzachar


Adventuring Hero
posted August 17, 2006 11:29 PM

BTW thats a tactic primary vs inferno since they steal your mana. 100 mana at lv 13 no inferno hero can steal for sure. 100 mana vs anyone is good though. No need to "waste" a hero turn for mark of necromancer.

When you are at ~lv 12-15 you often know if you have a chance of getting attacked. If you are getting close to enemy territory or suspect an attack. If you are at some offset place or near home you can ignore it for awhile. You often know where you get xp and how easy it is to get it etc.

After you got it you must play ALL your neutral fights manually without loosing mana. Its no problem you can easely take out casters, shooters, whatever really with the skelletons, and use no magic. At those lvs the skelletons amassed is ranging between 400-1000. Battle frenzy really helps here. vs casters and shooters split your skelltons in 4 groups (the maximum amounth of caster groups you can face.) Have one vampire group or non at all depends on the situation. Often you can take out most off the shooters before they act with your skelleton stacks, one stack or two might get their turn before, often not enough to deal to much harm, the new skelletons you get and from eternal servitude often make upp for it, if not losses wont be big. And for those fights that you risk more losses then you should you could use the hero to throw and icebolt or suffering. Never use slow!! to slow casters or shooters down to get ure skelletons to act first, they most certainly allready reached the "initiative goal" and wont be affected that turn. Use banshee howl to get an upper hand with lower luch and lowr morale. 20 + 20% chance dealing half or no damage before your skelletons isnt bad. With the boneward you do much better vs casters and no AoEs can hit twice having 4 groups.

Well that was a pretty long side note.

Anyways to make it short. that ability, arcance exellence can easely make upp for necros low mana. Sorcery if also offerd quite often so its high chance you are getting it in time. This is something to counter all factions with. You make use of artifacts that gives other bonuses then knowledge and dont feel that you must chase it that much.

If you prefer dark magic its a bad choice IMO. Sorcery doesnt benefit dark magic THAT much. Defence or attack are much better choices here.

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RectusDominus
RectusDominus


Adventuring Hero
posted August 18, 2006 10:59 AM

Tactically, I feel like academy has a disadvantage because it lacks charger/shooter power. For example, inferno has cerebri nightmares and succubi, sylvan has hunters and druids, and haven has marksmen griffins and horsies. Genies arent good enuf for charging (lack of att power on hero, and defensive special ability), that leaves academy with 1 decent shooter, the mage.
What I'm trying to say is, Individually academy's creatures may seem nice, and I'm sure they are excellent company at a tea party, but they won't slaughter ur enemy!!


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RectusDominus
RectusDominus


Adventuring Hero
posted August 18, 2006 11:04 AM

Ofcourse I'm not taking into account lvl 7 creatures... ye can't spend that kind of money when ur playing a good opponent

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted August 18, 2006 02:37 PM

Genies?Not a chance!But you can do a few things.Rakshasas with +speed artifact,archmages with fireball AND master gremlins with -attack atifacts.Possible to clone rakshasas too-your hero plays first,casts phantom forces,the clone attacks since he is large and clones appear in front of original creatures,original rakshasas attack anyway because of artifact.IF you have soldier's luck it is very possible you'll get a retaliation with the clone and if enemy hero casts a spell on it to ensure it is gone the mages will be spared his attack for a round.At the same time archmages will be able to shoot a fireball(hopefully) and gremlins will reduce a tough stack's defence.Doesn't work always though.
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Unixmage
Unixmage


Known Hero
Demon Slayer
posted August 18, 2006 02:44 PM

As necropolis the easy counter to phantom forces seems to be the splash damage of the lich. If a mage is allowed to cast (Rarely happens) I just raise dead. Seem like Mages are the pro race (Most games have them) and you have to be considerably smarter+luckier than your opponent to win.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted August 18, 2006 02:45 PM

Quote:

Never use slow!! to slow casters or shooters down to get ure skelletons to act first, they most certainly allready reached the "initiative goal" and wont be affected that turn. Use banshee howl to get an upper hand with lower luch and lowr morale. 20 + 20% chance dealing half or no damage before your skelletons isnt bad.



Actually it can work but only if the targetted creature is exactly in front of the skellies on the ATB and if you have better than basic dark magic.It contains a bit of a risk naturally but it has saved me several times.
Banshee howl...I love it but only use it with Deirdre,otherwise the bonuses aren't worth it.Unless I lack cerain spells of course
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Izzachar
Izzachar


Adventuring Hero
posted August 18, 2006 02:54 PM

I think its better to use expert suffering, weekness, frenzy, blindness, it ensures lower damage output atleast. Slow is often a gamble in those situations.  Main goal here is to weigh skellies vs mana points for that important fight thats comming upp.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted August 18, 2006 03:02 PM

Totally agree.Frenzy when they act before hero,suffering and weakness when there are many potential damage dealers,blindness if hero is other than knight/wizard.Can never be too careful!Confusion is not bad either!
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Izzachar
Izzachar


Adventuring Hero
posted August 18, 2006 03:21 PM

The comment about slow was directed to neutral fights in order to save your mana from arcane exellence untill a more important fight. casting a slow on one neutral stack to save some skellies might not be worth it considering the mana loss. A necro that relies on raise dead needs mana,

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