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| Thread: Advanced Classes |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted October 22, 2006 10:26 PM |
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Edited by Geny at 22:30, 22 Oct 2006.
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This is getting more and more interesting with every post...
What kind of a bonus will you get except the change in stat growth?
A small one time stat bonus,as proposed by Sindbad, sounds a nice start. However I'm not sure about changing the ultimate ability, I don't want to become a might oriented Demon Lord only because I really really want Urgash's Call.
Adding an extra skill would be good if not for the current exp system...
So maybe instead of adding a whole skill we can add a racial ability? Either a new one, for example: Alchemist - all Academy units get X% of magic protection, or improving an existing one, for example: Crusader - Retaliation Strike wounds the enemy.
Edit: now that I saw alc's last post I understand that ultimate ability can be changed, but I still think that some effect should be gained at the spot, so a "normal" ability is imo better.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 22, 2006 10:54 PM |
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I think there has to be a separate Ultimate Ability. Just look at some of the requirements:
Nature's Luck
Avenger (Might)
Attack (Might)
Luck (Might)
Defence (Might)
Logistics (Might)
Arcane Omniscience
Artificer (Magic)
Sorcery (Magic)
Enlightenment (Magic)
Summoning Magic (Magic)
Attack (Might)
If requirements for Advanced Classes are 3 skills of a kind, there's not much chance for the Warden (Nature Magic) to achieve Nature's Luck with 5 Might skills required. Similarly, not much chance for Alchemist to achieve Arcane Omniscience. Therefore, I think if this should work as an even choice, every Basic Class should have two Ultimate Abilities, one relating to Might Advanced Class, and one relating to Magic Advanced Class - or, alternatively, two alternative approaches to the Ultimate Ability.
EDIT > In response to Geny's edit: I totally agree that there should be some "other" advantage that just the new Ultimate Ability. A small skill boost would be fine as one thing, but should be limited. A change in some ability as you mention (for instance the crusader retaliation strike) would be a possibility - that would basically be quite like the Heroes 4 system. My only objection would be that some of the racial skills (like retaliation strike) isn't very usefull (I, for one, never uses it), and therefore it wouldn't be that exciting a bonus. I still think a 7th skill, reserved for class skill, would be fun, if it was coupled to a change in the experience system.
Another point one has to consider, is whethrr there should be introduced one or two new Ultimate Abilities to each class. Consider the Knight, who currently has Unstoppable Charge. If a player becomes Cleric (Magic subclass), he might get access to a new special Skill (say, Healing?), and an Ultimate Ability within the Healing skill. However, due to his Knight levels, he would still have Training as a skill. If the Hero instead becomes Crusader (Might subclass), he might get access to another special Skill (uhm, dunno what this should be on the spot). However, Unstoppable Charge would still be a viable choice for him - which is an ability in Training, not in the new skill. That makes a difference between these two classes. I'm not sure that's a real problem, one should just consider whether all classes should be equal, or if it's ok to favor one to the other - in this case, Crusader would have a slight advantage to Cleric with respect to gaining the Ultimate Ability, which might be acceptable - after all, Knight is a Might Class, and perhaps "specialization" as Cleric should be more difficult than specialization as Crusader.
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted October 23, 2006 10:55 AM |
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alcibiades' post just made me realize something, specializing as Cleric is indeed much harder than specializing as Crusader, in fact in the current skill system it's almost impossible.
The Knight has 8% chance of getting dark and light magic, and only 2% chance of getting any other magic skill, so the chances of him getting three magic skills close to zero.
A Wizard that wants to become an Alchemist is facing a similiar problem.
The others are a bit better well off, but it's still very hard to get an advanced class of opposite orientation, especially without using witch's hut.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 23, 2006 01:20 PM |
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Geny > Where did you get these numbers? I was not aware that these percentages where known for Heroes V. Also remember that 'Magic' skills include Sorcery and Enlightenment besides the 4 magic schools. I'm quite sure that Knight has fairly decent chance of gaining Enlightenment.
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted October 23, 2006 01:31 PM |
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Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted October 23, 2006 04:30 PM |
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This chart is originally from maps4heroes.com:
(Although someone at CH wrote the actual figures might be 2.5 instead f 2.)
According to the HC manual (p. 179), the values above only apply to new skills. Chances of improving various skills or being offered various abilities are uniform. Once a skill is learnt, the chances above are scaled among the remaining unknown skills.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 23, 2006 04:33 PM |
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Oh yes, I remember now ... Haven't memorized the complete manual.  But those numbers might or might not be true, but I know for sure that I've never had serious trouble with obtaining say Enlightenment as Knight or Attack as Wizard, even though there should be only a 2 % chance to get these skills offered at level up. Certainly, the Might skills are easier to obtain as Knight, but I don't think it'd be imposible in any way to make a Cleric. Some numbers could be tweaked a bit, though, so that each class had at least 3 skills from each group (might vs. magic) with 8 % chance or higher to learn.
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cantaresg
Known Hero
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posted October 24, 2006 04:36 AM |
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For me, it has been virtually impossible to get Attack on a level-up for a wizard. And it is known that the skills that you obtain on each level-up is random. That's why I tried to consider alternative ways of getting the ultimate skill (or advance classes) instead of solely based on the primary skills.
It is true that Heroes is a TBS with RPG elements instead of the other way round. But we have seen in the campaigns a large number of quests, big or small. Example of quests may be as follows:
Knight --> Crusaders - Rescue a hero from a heavily guarded prison
Knight --> Cleric - Defeat 2 crypts infested with Spectre Dragons and Wraiths
Ranger --> Sharpshooter - Defeat a group of black dragons
Ranger --> Warden - Defending the castle from a number of attacks
Wizard --> Sage - Defeating a Dragon Utopia
Wizard --> Alchemist - Obtaining 2 relics of Sar Issus
Of course it may be argued that some quests may not be possible in certain maps (especially small maps where space is constrained).
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Ted
Promising
Supreme Hero
Peanut Exterminator
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posted October 24, 2006 10:07 AM |
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Quote:
Knight --> Crusaders - Rescue a hero from a heavily guarded prison
Knight --> Cleric - Defeat 2 crypts infested with Spectre Dragons and Wraiths
Ranger --> Sharpshooter - Defeat a group of black dragons
Ranger --> Warden - Defending the castle from a number of attacks
Wizard --> Sage - Defeating a Dragon Utopia
Wizard --> Alchemist - Obtaining 2 relics of Sar Issus
Well this is good, upgraded heroes, a new element to the game, but i think you should have these hero units.
Knight OR Cleric
Ranger OR Scouter
Wizard OR Alchemist
Heritic OR Demonic (a demon lord is far to generalised)
Necromancer OR Dark Knight
Wizard OR Sorceress
This is what i think anyway, an alternative hero system should be considered wisely.
P.S. yes i changed my avatar, i looked to much like Dragonbreath
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 24, 2006 05:27 PM |
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Personally, I think the idea of quest-determined Hero classes goes too much against the style of the game to work appropriately. Maybe I'm too old-fashioned, but I don't see this working in Heroes.
As for the problem of Wizards gaining Attack (and other similar skills for other classes), remember that the statistics are scaled to overall probability of available skills. Thus, these 2 % only apply when the Hero have no skills at all. To make this more clear, consider this example: A Wizard at some level (above 4th) might have levels in Artificer, Summoning Magic, Sorcery and Enlightenment (this would be a reasonable approach if you wanted to get Arcane Omniscience). These skills have occurance chances of 10 %, 10 %, 15 % and 15 % respectively. This means that the remaining bulk of skills (Logistics, Attack, Light Magic, etc.) only sum up to a total of 50 % (100 % - (10 + 10 + 15 + 15)%), and at this stage of the game, the chance for Attack to occur is increased to 4 %. In the next 10 level-ups, the chance of Attack not occuring will therefore be 66 %, or some 34 % chance of Attack to occur. After 17 level ups, there should be a 50 % chance of Attack to have occured. Obviously, you shall not count on Attack to occur in early game, but if you keep a slot open, chances are it'll be there sooner or later.
If you want to boost your chances, you can pick Light Magic (10 %) in the 5th slot (this, of course, requires that your starting hero has one of the above mentioned Skills as second starting skill). If Light Magic is chosen, total remaining chance is reduced to 40 %, or 5 % chance of Attack occuring. In that case, you will need some 13 level up to have a 50 % chance of Attack being an option one of the times.
Also notice, that if base chance of Attack to occur is 2.5 % instead of 2 %, the numbers are changed so that you only need 13 level-ups with 4 skills closed to have 50 % chance of attack to occur, or 11 level ups with 5 skills (notice that importance of selecting 5th skill is reduced in this way).
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Sindbad
Famous Hero
The lost soul
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posted October 24, 2006 06:09 PM |
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Well, if you ask me, Id prefer the quest-type style. Its easier and also makes sense. 
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Already gone...
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted October 24, 2006 06:27 PM |
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I don't think that quest-based classes are a good idea, the whole point of advanced classes is to make them available anytime and quests depend on the map. And besides it really reduces the strategy side of the game imo.
@alcibiades
Maybe you're right about the numbers, it's still not easy to get 3 skills, but I guess it's possible... although probably the only way too know for sure is to try it in game...
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Sindbad
Famous Hero
The lost soul
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posted October 24, 2006 07:18 PM |
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Edited by Sindbad at 19:26, 24 Oct 2006.
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I havent said I dont agree with the other way, just that I like this one too. Maybe both should be implemented, but different. Like this: the hero class depends on his skills; after completing a quest, hero gains an additional ability that is different for every faction and obtainable only in this way. What do you say? 
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vhilhu
Famous Hero
We are NOT schysophren
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posted October 24, 2006 07:23 PM |
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that would be very easy on some maps and very difficult on others.
i suggest Warlord2 quest-like system. when visiting an adventure map temple, you can get a quest THAT IS ALWAYS POSSIBLE TO FULFILL(i mean no "kill some neutral blackies" when there are no blackies on the map). if the quest is failed(time limit OR someone else kills em), you can go back and get another quest.
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Two little Gnoll boys sitting in the sun;
One got frizzled up and then there was one.
One little Gnoll boy left all alone;
He went and hung himself and then there were none.
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Sindbad
Famous Hero
The lost soul
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posted October 24, 2006 07:28 PM |
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Edited by Sindbad at 19:29, 24 Oct 2006.
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Yes a quest system like this must be if we wanna implement quests on every map. And what if the quest guild was a building in every town providing quests for their heroes?
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Already gone...
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vhilhu
Famous Hero
We are NOT schysophren
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posted October 24, 2006 07:34 PM |
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that would take far too much time to implement. i mean we wouldnt want nival to bother doing 7 different looks of quest hall, with that time they could make 5% of a new town. 1 adventure map questhall/temple would be enough already.
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Two little Gnoll boys sitting in the sun;
One got frizzled up and then there was one.
One little Gnoll boy left all alone;
He went and hung himself and then there were none.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 24, 2006 08:10 PM |
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I think this discussion is wandering slightly off topic. The discussion of whether we want quests or not, and what types of quests and rewards plus their conditions is a very valid discussion, but should probably make up a thread of its own.
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Sindbad
Famous Hero
The lost soul
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posted October 24, 2006 08:28 PM |
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Yes, youre right. But Its a good feature, though...
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 24, 2006 08:45 PM |
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It certainly opens a wide window of new possibilities, yes. That's also why I think it desserves a thread of it's own to be discussed properly.
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cantaresg
Known Hero
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posted October 25, 2006 04:45 AM |
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Like you had said, the chances of getting Attack is possible, but chances of getting it early game is difficult. Therefore, skill based advance classes makes certain classes more accessible while the chances of getting others are not. I'd feel that there should be an equal probability of getting both might and magic classes, and we should be able to decide on our specialisation, rather than depending on chance.
In any case, the quest that I proposed should be script based, meaning it must be always achievable. If there are no 20 blackies, when you visit the quest building, the 20 blackies will appear. Perhaps in a "colosseum".
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