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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Political Correctness
Thread: Political Correctness This thread is 18 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 · «PREV / NEXT»
artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted February 08, 2019 01:51 PM
Edited by artu at 13:53, 08 Feb 2019.

When it comes to the N Word, it is simply this, it had been used as a racial slur for centuries, back when racism was considered normal, that was that. Then, it had become a taboo to use the word, since it was obviously an insult. Black people still use it in a different way, and since they are not being racist against themselves, the context is completely different. The discussion within them for many years was this:

A: We should not use it, either. The word has a terrible history.
B: No, we reversed the dynamics of the word. It was used to insult us, now it has turned into something only we can use. That’s empowerment.

Never has the discussion been about white people seriously demanding to be able to use the word like they did in the 1930’s. I think they have more serious problems than that. And why should they want such a thing, if they are not really racist anyway.

The whole thing is not about “freedom of speech” of course, since this is not about a legal crime anyway. You are not thrown to jail for using the N word, (Corribus will give you a penalty though), it is only a taboo.
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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 08, 2019 02:19 PM
Edited by Stevie at 14:21, 08 Feb 2019.

artu said:
A: We should not use it, either. The word has a terrible history.
B: No, we reversed the dynamics of the word. It was used to insult us, now it has turned into something only we can use. That’s empowerment.


No, that's being a snowflake demanding whites to not use a word. No matter how you twist and turn it, it always boils down to freedom of speech, in this case also coupled with racism.
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The Young Traveler

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AlHazin
AlHazin


Promising
Supreme Hero
النور
posted February 08, 2019 02:25 PM

Neraus said:
English speaking people, please refrain from using 60% of the vocabulary, each time you say those words you appropriate Latin culture and thus disenfranchise a minority that worked hard on their language and that has suffered many hardships in these last two millennias.

Also, please refrain from using roads, sewage, water pipes, surgery, written codes of law, standing armies, maths, physics, etc. etc. since my people (Greeks and Romans) and Syrians, Egyptians, Sumerians, Persians, Chinese, Phoenicians, Indians worked really hard on them to make a civilization worth living in, not for some ungrateful WASP to marginalize and persecute those who helped them rise.

What I'm saying, you bloody barbarians better start razing your cities and forget everything you've learned, we made the world and you're squatting on our property, you bunch of racist culture-appropriators.


Burn lol
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 08, 2019 02:28 PM

Stevie, you hear a girl greet her friend with "yo, b!tch, what's up?" Do you really think that you now have to be allowed to talk to her that way as well and would call her sexist if she balked when you did?

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blob2
blob2


Legendary Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
posted February 08, 2019 02:36 PM
Edited by blob2 at 14:42, 08 Feb 2019.

artu said:
Black people still use it in a different way, and since they are not being racist against themselves, the context is completely different.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/04/black-woman-n-word-court-case

Did they really change the dynamic? And what if I wanted to use the n-world in the context you mentioned? In a friendly manner? I can't, cus that would be racist? This is the exact state of madness this leads too. Suddenly words that were used even in friendly manner start to become a tool to use against a person in a legal argument. Good luck in winning a dispute where "racism" was evoked.  

JollyJoker said:
Stevie, you hear a girl greet her friend with "yo, b!tch, what's up?" Do you really think that you now have to be allowed to talk to her that way as well and would call her sexist if she balked when you did?


Who knows what the future has in store for us?

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 08, 2019 03:10 PM

Your quoted article is pretty good, because it illustrates the CONSENT character a lot of words when talking with each other. You can't, for example, address another person with overly intimate nicknames.

So if a black person uses the N-word to address a friend, it's based on CONSENT (same as the b-word or anything else for that matter).

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted February 08, 2019 03:14 PM
Edited by artu at 15:16, 08 Feb 2019.

@blob2

Well, if you have a really close black friend and you say something like “what’s up n...” and he doesnt mind, that’s between you two, of course. But the point is, it would be his decision, and if he does mind, saying something like “why can you say it but I can’t” would be rude and shallow. Such things are not arithmetics, the context is everything and the context doesnt always place minorities and majorities in the same position: we treat a song called “Say it loud, I’m black and I’m proud” and a song called “Say it loud, I’m white and I’m proud” very differently, one is an anthem against discrimination, while the other would be percieved as a declaration of superiority. If you’re German, try making a joke about jews, where as jews make jokes about themselves all the time. Historical background does change things and why it does shouldnt be too hard to grasp.
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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 08, 2019 03:16 PM
Edited by Stevie at 15:20, 08 Feb 2019.

JollyJoker said:
Stevie, you hear a girl greet her friend with "yo, b!tch, what's up?" Do you really think that you now have to be allowed to talk to her that way as well and would call her sexist if she balked when you did?


It's not quite down the same alley. For starters, those girls are friends and they set those boundaries for themselves, which is only natural. Of course someone on the outside would only be insulting in saying the same, it would be stupid of them to even assume that's an okay thing to do. But they're friends, so that defeats the purpose of the argument, because they can allow themselves to say anything without taking offense (as none was intended). It's a lot different from what I'm talking about.

You have two black people who don't know one another walk by and one says to the other "Eyo ma nigga, I'm not from around, where Burger King at?". And that's fine because they're both black, but suddenly not fine if that guy happened to be white? Again, no offense intended but a lot taken because of skin color.
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blob2
blob2


Legendary Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
posted February 08, 2019 03:19 PM
Edited by blob2 at 15:50, 08 Feb 2019.

JollyJoker said:
So if a black person uses the N-word to address a friend, it's based on CONSENT (same as the b-word or anything else for that matter).


Well this is common sense. But the whole issue here is that groups of people are pushing some of their agenda or want to win a dispute, and they have a one-sided support to back them up. Usually in the form of likely-minded authorities or media.

@artu

Context is fine as long as it doesn't overstep its boundaries. It cannot lead to situations where one side is perfectly fine with doing something, and the next is ostracized for it.

I am fine with talking to a person of different race, I meet quite a few in my line of work. I am perfectly fine with talking to a Korean restaurant owner praising her cooking. I am perfectly fine with women getting paid the same salary rates as men.

What I'm not okay with is when the "right" behavior is imperatively imprinted on the society, when it tells you what is good and what is wrong in an invasive manner, like literally not allowing to talk on the subject. Half good if you only get a warning or an explanation (like "please don't do that, I'm not comfortable with your behavior"). But in many cases it straight-up ends with long standing consequences...

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted February 08, 2019 03:22 PM
Edited by artu at 15:23, 08 Feb 2019.

It is the same alley because the pejorative meaning of the word was based on skin color, too. So if you have that skin color already, even calling a stranger that, boils down to an assumed “brothers who had to deal with the same snow” context.
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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 08, 2019 03:39 PM

And if I don't have that color it's an assumed "slaver who put us through that snow"? Because there's absolutely no way I can be white and mean well when I'm calling someone according to the color of their skin. My racism must be inferred, it's not an actual fact that they're black. I am white, therefore I'm racist. Oh my God, the irony.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted February 08, 2019 03:50 PM

Not because you’re white but because you deliberately overstep a boundry about a racial slur they determine the boundries of. As I said, if you are a close friend etc, they can LET you, but the initiative is the key here.
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blob2
blob2


Legendary Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
posted February 08, 2019 03:57 PM
Edited by blob2 at 15:59, 08 Feb 2019.

Stevie said:
You have two black people who don't know one another walk by and one says to the other "Eyo ma nigga, I'm not from around, where Burger King at?". And that's fine because they're both black, but suddenly not fine if that guy happened to be white? Again, no offense intended but a lot taken because of skin color.


Regarding n-word: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6kDgA1sNU0. Friendly.

Btw, looky here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqo9jUvRroY. That's what I'm talking about when overusing "privileges" for your own gain, at least justice was served in this case.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 08, 2019 04:01 PM

Why would you want to call a person that you don't know who is part of a certain group with a pejorative? Would you a stranger with glasses as "four-eyes"? A woman as "split-tail"? Someone in a wheelchair as "cripple"? An Asian as "gook" or "chinky"?

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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 08, 2019 04:42 PM

You say it's pejorative. So care to explain why is okay to say between total strangers when they're black but not when they're white? And what do you mean "who is part of a certain group"? Do you understand how racism permeates your thought process here? So you on your own are lumping people together in a group on the sole basis of skin color. To me there is nothing of the sort, and if there was any group that took priority it would be humanity as a whole, not minorities. I'm not the type to categorize people in groups and label them on how they look like. There is no black or white in my mentality, everyone is a human being who is absolutely equal to everyone else. There is no privilege, no tacit boundaries or grouping based on skin color, no preferential treatment, everyone's equal to do and say the same thing as everybody else. The fact that anyone would think that a group - but not the kind of group where people express consented association, but one where the unspoken unity of the members is assumed to lie in the leading trait that is their skin color - holds any bearing or right in what it can do or say in comparison with and above another is purely racist and discriminatory.

You, JJ and Artu, think that any black guy out there is part of some global organization named "the black community" whose core agenda is to get a monopoly on words or whatever else. Not any more or less than you and I are part of "the white community" thinking the opposite. We don't even know each other and I don't go to assume anything because we have something in common. That would be an audacious and completely foolish thing to do.

@blob2, here's Morgan Freeman, one of my absolute heroes on the topic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0p_pQ7PTYU

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 08, 2019 05:26 PM

You are running straight on bull course now. I have asked you the simple question why you would want to call a stranger with a pejorative name for a characteristic that makes them part of a certain "group", be it "four-eyes", because the stranger wears glasses (and is part of the group of people who wear glasses) and so on, and you don't answer it.

I have absolutely no idea whether it is okay between two black people who don't know each other to address themselves with the n-word, and I'm quite sure it's not in general - I seriously doubt, for example, that if  a black cop stops a black guy in a car, that it's ok for the cop when the driver say, hey, my nigga, what can I do for you.

I have also no idea why you feel as a victim of racism when two black "bros" call themselves the n-word, but they would get a fit when you would - same thing with pejorative names for cross-dressing homosexuals, if I'm not totally wrong. Is it "they can, you don't" envy? Do you want to enforce political correctness in addressing? What?

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted February 08, 2019 05:29 PM
Edited by artu at 17:32, 08 Feb 2019.

Stevie, "your" example was one black guy asking the other "where's burger king, my n.." which is obviously using the term with a sense of community. If one black guy says to the other "did you take my wallet, you n..." he won't get a hug either.

Minorities exist, they exist because history exists. Group identities also exist, it is hardly a matter of right and wrong but rather human psyche, getting stuck, obssessed with such identities or reducing yourself into one of them is, of course, foolish. But that doesn't mean they are absolutely artificial as a social/historical reality and if you have an ideal such as "family of humanity," you wont be someone calling a black stranger "n..." to begin with anyway. Words have associations. You don't pick them up randomly. JJ's example is pretty clear isn't it, after addressing a man in a wheelchair "hey cripple," you can't go and say something like "why is it not okay if I have nothing against him" because you would have no motive to call him a cripple knowing he's not okay with it, in the first place.

If you are a tourist, completely ignorant of American history and culture, and you go there as a non-black person, witness calling them each other "yo n..., what's up" and to blend in, you do the same thing, they will probably have a good laugh and explain to you why that is not quite okay. But when a non-black local who is aware of how the word was a slur, uses it, it is not about defending "freedom of speech" or anything, it's about deliberately stepping on a boundary. It means "I disregard your sensitivity on the subject, here's my finger." You have the legal right to disregard such sensitivity and they have the right to consider you a racist for doing that. Now, there are actual stuff, which is absurdly oversensitive, but usage of a racial slur towards a group who had been literally used as slaves for centuries, who dealt with segregation up until very recently, is not one of them.

The real dilemma here is, overzealous political correctness casues people to react in matters that have been already resolved. If you put aside an extreme minority of people who were actually hardcore racist,   regular people were quite fine with not using the word anyway, "oh, they don't like it, fine, what's the big deal." But now, it is turning into a matter of "I have the right to do it, too." Yes, you have the right, but it's not about "rights" anyway.
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Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted February 08, 2019 05:48 PM

Stevie said:
You say it's pejorative. So care to explain why is okay to say between total strangers when they're black but not when they're white?


You are oversimplifying things. Not all blacks take offence, and some might take offence no matter who says it.

If any stranger comes and calls me a f*g on the street it immediately makes me feel threatened. You are coming at me with bad intentions, contempt, and hate. I won't take it kindly. Yet it is a word my friends constantly use, and it means completely different.

If the guy is another homosexual, I will most likely understand it similarly as a joke and it won't raise my defence mechanism. But he is still taking a chance.

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fred79
fred79


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Undefeatable Hero
Scourge of the H-Seas
posted February 08, 2019 05:53 PM

I completely agree with stevie and blob. One group telling another group they can't use any certain word is all about control; and it uses a racist pretext to execute said control. Which, obviously, is wrong; the nuances of context has nothing to do with it. If CONTEXT is all it takes to restrict people using free speech; just think of how ELSE it can be used to restrict certain populi. Where does it all end? This stuff certainly IS a slippery slope(which, apparently, is some OTHER words you can't use without being inexplicably labeled ).

Also, pizza-nazi's post on the current subject was hilarious.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted February 08, 2019 06:11 PM
Edited by artu at 18:12, 08 Feb 2019.

@fred

But the word is not illegal. You just want the word to have no consequences, which is totally something else.

Imagine you visit New York, you are having a casual conversation with people who are not close friends and one of them goes: "Yeah, yeah whatever, you redneck." Would you be comfortable with it and if not, should not being comfortable with it stand out as your evil SJW motivation of dominating the vocabulary.

Now, imagine "rednecks" were not allowed to use the same bathroom or go to the same schools with New Yorkers up until recently and even your good ol' granny had lived through that. Multiply the attitude accordingly.

I mean, personally, I wouldn't make a fuss over it but if someone did, I wouldn't define it as some plot of "control" either.
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