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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Resource costs REALLY changed in 1.3
Thread: Resource costs REALLY changed in 1.3 This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT»
Elvin
Elvin


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What if Elvin was female?
posted September 14, 2006 02:45 PM
Edited by alcibiades at 18:36, 21 Apr 2007.

Resource costs REALLY changed in 1.3

It has been known for a while that there have been different money costs for town dwellings.But the resource costs are the ones that stand out most(apart the 12000 for colossi).I took a quick look and wrote down the rare resource requirements leaving out wood and ore as well as cost for upgrading dwellings.I will update later and you are welcome to point out my possible mistakes and omissions.

Haven:
Archers 10 ore instead of 5
Priests 5 wood-no wood
Footmen 10 wood,10 ore-had 5 ore,no wood
Training grounds and hall of heroes take +5 sulfur each.Nice one.
Angels 10000,15 ore,10 gems-had 20000,no gems
Griffins 10 wood,10 ore,5 mercury-had 5 wood,no mercury
Cavaliers 15 wood instead of 10
Training is still pretty accesible but knights now need more wood to expand.

Inferno:
Hell hounds 10 wood instead of 5
Hellchargers 4000,5 wood,5 ore,10 sulfur-2500,5 sulfur,5 gems
Burning stables now require 5 sulfur.Finally
Pitfiends 10 mercury-5 mercury,5 crystal
succubi 3500 instead of 2000
Devils 10000,10 mercury,5 sulfur-15000,15 mercury,5 crystal instead of mercury
Devils become an even more attractive choice while pitfiends are harder to get.

Necropolis:
Bone dragons 6000.20(!) mercury,ore-15000,10 mercury,15 ore
Wights 10 mercury,wood,ore-5 of each
Liches 2 mercury,2 crystal,2 sulfur,2 gems,10 wood-5 crystal,sulfur,gems,no wood
Vampires have 10 wood-5 wood
Ghost 3 mercury-no mercury.
Dragon tombstone 10 mercury instead of 5
WHAT IS IT ABOUT MERCURY???Liches a lot easier to get.

Academy:
Rakshasas 10 ore,5 crystal,5 sulfur,10 gems-had 5 ore,5 sulfur...
Genies 5 ore,10 mercury-had 10 ore,10 gem,no mercury
Mages 10 ore,10 sulfur,5 gems-had no sulfur...
Golems 5 ore,5 mercury,5 gems-had 2 mercury,2gems
Colossi 12000,10 wood,10 ore,5 gems-had 20000,5 crystal
They'll have a problem building rakshasas but since colossi and titans cost 12000 each,wizards will gain power fast during midgame.

Sylvan:
Greenies 8000,15 crystal,15 gems-10000,10 crystal,sulfur,gem
Treant saplings now for just 10 wood!Woot!-10 mercury,sulfur
Treants 15 wood,5 crystal,5 sulfur,3 gems-10 wood,5 mercury,no crystal and gems
druids 3 crystal,3 gems,15 ore-10 ore,5 all rare resources
Hunters 15 wood instead of 5
Blade dancers 10 wood instead of 5
Unicorns 5 wood-no wood
Mystic pond no ore-5 ore
Good for druids,greenies and treants but wood cost increased.

Dungeon:
Dragons 12000,15 crystal,15 sulfur-15000,10 crystal,sulfur
Shadow witches 4000,no gems-5000,5 gems
Hydras 5 crystal instead of gems
Raiders no mercury-had 5
Ritual pit 5 sulfur.
Altar of elements 2000 instead of 2500
Easier to get mage guilds since their resourse costs are minimal now.

Holy crap,getting mines ASAP is a matter of survival now.Only haven seems to be relatively unscathed.Is it me or was all this a bit too drastic?Do they even know what they are doing?

EDIT:Gold,wood,ore costs added.Note that this is for comparison purposes so I don't present all requirement costs,just those that change.




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Elvin
Elvin


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What if Elvin was female?
posted September 14, 2006 04:23 PM

Jolly Joker has made a post with absolute changes for factions:

ACADEMY: -26000 Gold; -10 Ore; -5 Crystals; -2 Gems; +10 Sulfur; +13 Mercury
DUNGEON: -23500 Gold; -19 Gems; -10 Mercury; +15 Crystal; +15 Sulfur
HAVEN: -31000 Gold; + 5 C; + 10 M; +10 S; +20 G; +15 O; +50 W
INFERNO: -19000 Gold; -8 C; -8 G; +15 S; +20 W
NECRO (!): -21000 Gold; -5 S; -15 C; -15 G; +30 W; +33 M (!)
SYLVANS: -12000 Gold; -38 M; -38 S; +7 C; +8 G; +40 W

Seeing as mage guilds are now cheaper(1 of rare resourses for lvl 2,2 for lvl 3,3 for lvl 4 etc) the numbers change even more:

ACADEMY: -26000 Gold; -10 Ore; -13 Crystals; -10 Gems; +2 Sulfur; +5 Mercury
DUNGEON: -23500 Gold; -27 Gems; -18 Mercury; +7 Crystal; +7 Sulfur
HAVEN: -31000 Gold; -3 C; + 2 M; +2 S; +12 G; +15 O; +50 W
INFERNO: -19000 Gold; -16 C; -16 G; +7 S; -8 M; +20 W
NECRO (!): -21000 Gold; -13 S; -23 C; -23 G; +30 W; +25 M (!)
SYLVANS: -12000 Gold; -46 M; -46 S; -1 C; +40 W
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TowerLord
TowerLord


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posted September 14, 2006 04:31 PM

Quote:
Jolly Joker has made a post with absolute changes for factions:

ACADEMY: -26000 Gold; -10 Ore; -5 Crystals; -2 Gems; +10 Sulfur; +13 Mercury
DUNGEON: -23500 Gold; -19 Gems; -10 Mercury; +15 Crystal; +15 Sulfur
HAVEN: -31000 Gold; + 5 C; + 10 M; +10 S; +20 G; +15 O; +50 W
INFERNO: -19000 Gold; -8 C; -8 G; +15 S; +20 W
NECRO (!): -21000 Gold; -5 S; -15 C; -15 G; +30 W; +33 M (!)
SYLVANS: -12000 Gold; -38 M; -38 S; +7 C; +8 G; +40 W

Seeing as mage guilds are now cheaper(1 of rare resourses for lvl 2,2 for lvl 3,3 for lvl 4 etc) the numbers change even more:

ACADEMY: -26000 Gold; -10 Ore; -13 Crystals; -10 Gems; +2 Sulfur; +5 Mercury
DUNGEON: -23500 Gold; -27 Gems; -18 Mercury; +7 Crystal; +7 Sulfur
HAVEN: -31000 Gold; -3 C; + 2 M; +2 S; +12 G; +15 O; +50 W
INFERNO: -19000 Gold; -16 C; -16 G; +7 S; -8 M; +20 W
NECRO (!): -21000 Gold; -13 S; -23 C; -23 G; +30 W; +25 M (!)
SYLVANS: -12000 Gold; -46 M; -46 S; -1 C; +40 W


so they are trying to cripple haven by reourse costs ... I think this is not a very smart ideea, since this means even more money for training marksmen! I guess we'll see .

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PhoenixReborn
PhoenixReborn


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posted September 14, 2006 04:45 PM

I'm wondering if they haven't changed training costs too.  We all need a few days to play through the game and see how the factions play now.
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alcibiades
alcibiades


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of Gold Dragons
posted September 15, 2006 09:51 AM
Edited by alcibiades at 10:04, 15 Sep 2006.

Also notice how all Level 7 Dwellings are very much easier on the Gold Resserve now. I think that's a good move, because generally, you couldn't afford to build these dwellings before very late game previously.

However, some of the other requirements seem completely out of line. I never used Shadow Dragons in the old game, because the Mercury requirements were too high and the benefit too low, and having increased the overall Mercury cost of Necropolis by some 25 units (!?) is certainly *not* gonna help on that. Not very wise.

Actually, I think they should really consider making things a bit more simple. Thinking back on Heroes III, dwelling costs were much less confusing. Generally, they should settle for 1 Precious resource for the level 7 dwelling, which will correspond to ressource silo. Then, if they use say Gems (large amounts) for level 7, they should focus on perhaps Crystals (moderate amounts) for level 6, and Mercury and Sulfur (small amounts) for level 5, and then various small amounts for upgrading level 3-5.

They should avoid focussing solely on 1 type of ressources for each town. Remember in Heroes III, how in Stronghold, Behemoth lair was available at 10 Crystals, whereas Cyclops cave cost 20 Crystals - which ment that you always ended up bying Behemoths very early, and only in very late game could afford Cyclops. Now they are doing the same problem with Necropolis, making it all cost loads of Mercury, meaning that you can only buy one dwelling or the other (and you're screwed if Mercury is not easily accessible).


Quote:
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Elvin
Elvin


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What if Elvin was female?
posted September 15, 2006 01:37 PM
Edited by Elvin at 13:42, 15 Sep 2006.

Quote:
Also notice how all Level 7 Dwellings are very much easier on the Gold Resserve now. I think that's a good move, because generally, you couldn't afford to build these dwellings before very late game previously.

However, some of the other requirements seem completely out of line. I never used Shadow Dragons in the old game, because the Mercury requirements were too high and the benefit too low, and having increased the overall Mercury cost of Necropolis by some 25 units (!?) is certainly *not* gonna help on that. Not very wise.

Actually, I think they should really consider making things a bit more simple. Thinking back on Heroes III, dwelling costs were much less confusing. Generally, they should settle for 1 Precious resource for the level 7 dwelling, which will correspond to ressource silo. Then, if they use say Gems (large amounts) for level 7, they should focus on perhaps Crystals (moderate amounts) for level 6, and Mercury and Sulfur (small amounts) for level 5, and then various small amounts for upgrading level 3-5.

They should avoid focussing solely on 1 type of ressources for each town. Remember in Heroes III, how in Stronghold, Behemoth lair was available at 10 Crystals, whereas Cyclops cave cost 20 Crystals - which ment that you always ended up bying Behemoths very early, and only in very late game could afford Cyclops. Now they are doing the same problem with Necropolis, making it all cost loads of Mercury, meaning that you can only buy one dwelling or the other (and you're screwed if Mercury is not easily accessible).


Quote:
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Playing a bit with academy I see that it's easier to build colossi than rakshasas.Also if you want to build rakshasas you have to skip golems or find some gems ASAP which leaves you pretty screwed for the first two weeks.In this case it is gremlins,gargoyles,mages,genies who are in desperate need of a strong tank unit and tend to die fast.Basically what they have done is make accessible genies(you cannot depend on) instead of rakshasas.If you are lucky you can get them 3rd week I know other factions face similar problems but academy's 1 to 5 tier creatures don't really fare well on their own.*That's* why crazy resourse costs can be bad.(no way was I ever gonna build spectral dragons before and things are worse now) However they have balanced pretty well others so I can only complain about a few things-that is until I figure out how much damage they have done to the game
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PhoenixReborn
PhoenixReborn


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Unicorn
posted September 15, 2006 01:53 PM

But you can now build colossi easier than rakshasa who are arguably also an excellent tank.
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Doomforge
Doomforge


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posted September 15, 2006 02:02 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 14:03, 15 Sep 2006.

Obsidian gargs are great tanks, very cheap, expendable and you don't really care if you lose a bunch of them throughout the game. No need for golems imo.

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Elvin
Elvin


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What if Elvin was female?
posted September 15, 2006 02:31 PM

@PhoenixReborn:
Quote:
But you can now build colossi easier than rakshasa who are arguably also an excellent tank.

Will you build colossi in week 2?You are vulnerable to rushes.

@Doomforge:
Quote:
Obsidian gargs are great tanks, very cheap, expendable and you don't really care if you lose a bunch of them throughout the game. No need for golems imo.

I agree as I use them a lot earlygame.But they do low to nonexistant damage and it is not really a threat to the opponent for him to focus on.The best you can do is place them before your shooters but magi will hurt them too once their mana is used up and having a tank to draw attacks in the middle of the field works better.Also mages and gremlins aren't really damage dealers and die easily too by ranged attacks or spells.I don't use golems either but you need them against a warlock as they've saved my hide in the past.They can also fill the tank role.
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alcibiades
alcibiades


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of Gold Dragons
posted September 15, 2006 02:50 PM bonus applied.
Edited by alcibiades at 22:16, 17 Sep 2006.

There are some of the things in the building costs from Nival that are just completely unballanced, or just don't make sense. Take a look at these charts (edit: Now updated with full vers. 1.3 details):




This is the Academy building cost of Nival in the top, and a proposal for a more ballanced version in the bottom. Notice how the very high Ore requirements on low levels completely block Academy development, and also how at higher levels, how nearly all the units draw on Gems as their primary resource, instead of using some other resources for the Rakshasa, and then charge Gems for Giant and Titan (gems are the associated resource with these units, after all). Also, the very high Mercury cost for the Genies is going to make them difficult to obtain on ressource scarce maps.

1.3 edit > In this case, the changed costs has helped a lot on the problems - specifically, lowered Ore cost of Master Gremlins is going to make a huge difference. The Wizards are still going to cope with serious gold expenses, however, and also generally large precious resource consumptions - especially on Rakshasa!




Another example of extreme lack of ballance here. Notice how all Necropolis units draw on Mercury for their buildings - for a staggering consumption of 83 units, and that's not gonna help when you have to use 6 units a-week to buy Dragons!

1.3 edit > Hurray ... Mercury cost increased to 86 units - well done! And huge Wood and Ore requirements to ballance things - very nice. 50 Wood and 50 Ore to build levels 4, 5, 6, and 7 - and we're not even talking upgrading!




The Haven chart is actually pretty reasonable, except for the fact that you have to use Gems for the Angel building, and the Angels cost Crystal - and then Crystal for the Cavalier building, instead of reversing that. Haven has low consumption of precious ressources but needs loads of Wood and Ore, which is standard for this town.

1.3 edit > Increased Ore consumption on low levels is going to be a problem, but generally, Haven gets off very cheaply on their resource requirements.




Again, not only a high consumption of Sulfur - which is ok, that's what you get the ressource silo for - but also unreasonable demands on Mercury, which is gonna be a critical problem for the inferno. 10 units of Mercury for each of the level 6 and 7 dwellings is going to meen that only one of them will be affordable when ressources are lacking - and also notice the high consumption of sulfur to building on level 3-5, instead of drawing on other resources, and leave sulfur for the devils.

1.3 edit > A bit better, Hell Chargers and Pit Lords now draw on Gems and Crystal which will ease the sulfur and mercury reserve - a bit.




In this case, what sticks out most is the unreasonable cost of the Dragons. A total of 80 precious ressources to build upgraded Dragons is almost laughable! Also, very high consumption of gems, but very low consumption of Mercury seem unballanced, whereas high consumption of Wood is the classical challenge of the Sylvan town.




Again, lack of ballance with unreasonable Crystal consumption, and also the high requirements of Ore to build minotaurs - that are not a very good unit anyway - is going to make it a valid option to delay building this unit, making it lose importance in the game.

1.3 edit > Wow ... 25 wood to build Blade Dancers and 30 Wood to have Master Hunters - man, are those elves going to chop some trees! Not to mention the Gem and Crystal issues - it's not going to be easy to play Sylvan. Of course, you'll probably be drowning in all your Mercury, so you might wanna try to sell some of that to them Necromancers to cover your expenses. They'll need it (but not much likelyhood of them giving you any Wood in return!).


All in all, I feel a better approach would be to aim at more even ressource consumption, with only one precious ressource being used in much larger amounts - which should be the one provided by the ressource silo.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted September 15, 2006 03:46 PM

Nice charts! They do clearly show the imbalance currently in existence.

/spell-check modus on
"resource" is spelled with a single 's' (despite the banner that sometimes appears on top of this page )
"balance" is spelled with a single 'l'
/spell-check modus off


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alcibiades
alcibiades


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of Gold Dragons
posted September 15, 2006 04:59 PM

Ha ha sorry for the spelling then. That would be because English is not my native language. In Danish, "resources" would be "ressourcer", which is with double s, and I just made the transfer without thinking about it. Balance, I think you can write both with single and double l in danish.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


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posted September 15, 2006 06:10 PM

Well, dragon dwelling always costed a lot of sulfur, it was meant to balance out the dragons' above-average performance. But now, the dragons ain't gamebreakers anymore, and so, the prices should be lowered..

Only haven (AGAIN ) enjoys extremely cheap city. WHY?

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Shauku83
Shauku83


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posted September 15, 2006 07:07 PM

Sorry alcibiades, but those charts are somewhat off (haven't check how much)

Notice how the Master Gremlin upgrage is only 5 ore after patch 1.3. That REALLY helps. Also Haven upgrades (on gold amounts) are cheaper than what you state.


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alcibiades
alcibiades


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of Gold Dragons
posted September 15, 2006 07:22 PM
Edited by alcibiades at 19:24, 15 Sep 2006.

Shauku > That might well be. Sounds good if they ballanced that as well. I only incorporated the changes listed by Elvin, so if there are others not listed there, that'll make it better. Where Elvin didn't state any changes (which would be all upgrades) I just used the old numbers, so hopefully some more of the changes I feel is due have been done.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted September 15, 2006 09:35 PM
Edited by Maurice at 21:36, 15 Sep 2006.

Quote:
Ha ha sorry for the spelling then. That would be because English is not my native language. In Danish, "resources" would be "ressourcer", which is with double s, and I just made the transfer without thinking about it. Balance, I think you can write both with single and double l in danish.


Hehe, ok, easy to make those mistakes then.

Anyway, it shouldn't be too hard to come by the new numbers. Heck, I might even give it a shot tonight while fooling around. Just need to finish this mission . (Dougal, 1800+ Marksmen, I have 6 cities, enemy holds only 2 more ... so it's cake ).

What I did notice is that after building in a town, you can no longer click any buildings on the city plan overview, besides buildings which are either complete, or still have an upgrade in the same tier (creature dwellings, mage guild, but not the town hall, for instance). Makes it somewhat annoying to check resource costs and plan ahead after building something - especially if the new building just built unlocks the next building tier.

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Elvin
Elvin


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What if Elvin was female?
posted September 15, 2006 11:08 PM

No need to check them,Age of Heroes has been updated to 1.3.
http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com/heroes5/academy_buildings_dwellings.shtml
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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted September 15, 2006 11:40 PM

Ah, yes, that does save some effort

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alcibiades
alcibiades


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of Gold Dragons
posted September 15, 2006 11:40 PM

Yeah, think I'll have to be fair and update the tables with the correct numbers asap then.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted September 16, 2006 12:08 AM

By the way, what do the four numbers on the bottom line of each table indicate? I looked at it before, but I can't seem to figure out what they represent.

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