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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Some 1.3 thoughts
Thread: Some 1.3 thoughts This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT»
Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted September 19, 2006 09:03 PM

Some 1.3 thoughts

After fooling around on a lanparty with my friends, I have some thoughts about 1.3 balance to share with you ;p

inferno
Suggested army: Familiars, Succubi Mistressess, Nightmares, Devils
Good heroes in 1.3: Deleb
Bad heroes: All rest -_-

1.3 ruinfed the balance of inferno. Costs are too high. You'd need 30 sulfur or so to get all the important units! Forget about it. Forget about using heroes other than deleb, too.
I've played a peninsula map. Took alastor, and of course I got a huge stack of Master Hunters (WHY THE HELL THEY APPEAR 99% OF THE TIME THERE? ~~ it should be a random level 3 unit.. -_-) blocking the way to the underground and - thanks to incredible resources cost - I was left with almost nothing, and I couldn't kill them without losing everything! Waiting wouldn't give me anything, so I attacked and got severly weakened, and soon after that, a Knight hero came and owned me totally because I had almost no army left!
On the other hand, Deleb is still a powerhouse. Nerfed, but who cares? I killed 16 nightmares with 32 demons with no loses in first week, lol. Compare it to the pathetic problems of Alastor described above.. Also, deleb is simply needed because with all those resource needs, you need to capture mines quickly, and with 1,1k HP ballista and a tent, you can do it even with demons.

academy
Suggested armybsidian Gargs+Archmages+Djinns+Titans
Good heroes: Aww. None? You may want the mentor hero maybe, havez for the tent.. but no killers here.
All you can do is depend on mages protected by obsidian gargs, but don't expect wonders. If you're afraid of shooters, get havez and try to get tent skill, otherwise use the mentor hero maybe (mages will do the creeping for you), eventually flamewielder guy.. Titans are one of the easier upg level 7 to get, so resource silo early on is a must. The town is quite strong when you decide to rush with mages, they are strong, and paired with other units.. yup, I guess ultra fast titans+mass mages are the only chance of academy. NEVER wait for endgame, because you'll be washed away with weak titans (190 hp with wizards' terrible defense = no thx) as your "toughest" units. Academy has the most worthless racial and generally is a weak faction, but still it can get dangerous with careful/lucky play.

Dungeon
Suggested army: Furies(for creeping), minotaurs, raiders, hydras, matriarchs.
Good heroes: Sinitar if you're afraid of mana costs of empowered implo. Scout specialist if you want a stronger earlygame and better chance for warlock's luck.
Dungeon is the endgame killer of 1.3. With lucky empowered spells (possible now) you may do great damage! Let me count: "normal" empowered implosion with level 15 hero (with enlightment) kills around
80 marksmen. With slippers, you can get much more, now imagine lucky empowered implo triggering a +30% dam elemental chain. Yup, it can reach like 200-300 killed marksmen! Bye bye dougal.
Another thing: you kill a lot, but still lose. Who cares. You run, get a bit of units and come back. Knight has poor army and poor spells, you get poor army but wonderful spells, who will win the first round? you, of course. Who said there is only one big battle?
In case to do a lot damage, you got to survive several rounds. That means you need defensive units! Hydras, minoutaurs, shadow mats, lizards - they are quite durable, so don't charge. The longer the battle takes, the better your chances are.
Too bad getting deep hydras fast is nearly impossible (it drains all crystals just to build the basic dwelling..), so you need to get a crystal mine asap. Well, I say "asap" but if it's protected by druid elders.. yeah, you know that it's impossible to capture for all towns, save kaspar and deleb with tent.

necropolis
Units: Skeleton archers, vampires and liches. The rest sucks.
heroes: Kaspar, kaspar, kaspar.

800hp tent, animate dead from start, do you really need more? unfortunately, the units are pretty much impossible to get with so much needed mercury and ore, so use just the best,creep the whole map to get as much skells as you can, kill 20 treants in second week or so (perfectly possible!) and get another castle for some REAL units. -_- Ah, well, you can't have everything. Creeping power for army strength, is it a fair trade?

I didn't play sylvan cuz it sucks and haven is overpowered and i hate it, so forget about me writing haven tips lol

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted September 19, 2006 10:02 PM
Edited by Elvin at 22:10, 19 Sep 2006.

So far I've played all but haven and inferno.Well as for sylvan you may be irritated.I've posted how your gameplay changes and what you cannot build in the'resources' thread so you should know.
Academy...If you don't find the money to upg and buy the colossi you may be rushed and...It is hell to build rakshasas early too and without them you are quite vulnerable to rushing with destructive/fast melee creatures.To build rakshasas fast you won't build golems and you'll get your @ss kicked very painfully.If you get the money the game is far from over.
Necro plays fine.2nd week you leave with vamp lords and skellie archers and can handle most things(raise dead helps).You'll build up to wights fairly easily but don't hope much on upg or high mage guild.
And of course dungeon that even with the nerf AND without warlock's luck is great.It will take some lvls of course but with arcane training,intelligence,ice mastery,secrets of destruction and exp logistics you can do some pretty good damage.Haven didn't stand a chance!Though I chanced upon his main with not all army at first time Mage guild cheap,casting and retreating can seriusly disrupt an enemy.I gave up attack/tactics but your horde of furies will die in a good battle anyway and from then on you can only depend on magic.
The fact that Nival has made inaccessible tier 6 until week 3(if so) is infuriating.No serious reason.TOO MANY resources.Seriously I feel as if we are testing their silly experiments.The good part is that from now on things can only improve.And they will.

Edit:In the little while I played inferno I found out it would be foolish to go for hell chargers as without sulfur you won't build neither succubi nor pitlords I was used to leaving with hell chargers on 2nd week Then again many good changes have taken place as the horde dwelling new price and permanent motD so it only takes some sulfur decrease to fix most problems.
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ZeroXcuses
ZeroXcuses


Known Hero
posted September 19, 2006 10:16 PM

I think the changes Nival made were to slow down the pace which ppl build their castles to make for longer games (if people wish to build their castles fully).

Does not matter to me. As Doomforge said, Necros won't have much of a problem with thier powerhouse units (skele archers, vampire lords, Liches)

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Lord_Crusader
Lord_Crusader


Promising
Supreme Hero
UHU!! supreme!
posted September 20, 2006 12:50 AM

Actually I think the changes are for speed up the game... you can get lv 6 and lv 7 early in the game... there are bugs that is the annoying thing always with nival... but is more balanced now
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Ambidext
Ambidext


Adventuring Hero
Wandering knight
posted September 20, 2006 09:27 AM
Edited by Ambidext at 09:29, 20 Sep 2006.

Sylvan sucks? I suggest you don't put your words so blattenly. You'll upset many Sylvan fans, and probably get flamed. Sylvan in my opinion is pretty much balanced in terms of early and end game. I always manage to get Citadel and Master Hunters by the first week, Capitol and Castle by second along with Treants, Green Dragons on the third week. This means simply I was never weak at start game and pwned the other players at end game, and I never had problems with resources. I am not claiming to be a very good player, especially when I've just started with H5 not long. But I think Nival intended to and so far made all 6 factions with strengths and weaknesses. It would be senseless to create a faction that totally sucks and gets pwned by the rest. No one would play it and it would be a waste of the company's resources programming and animating the entire faction.

So yeah, just mind your words. If you don't like Sylvan, fine. But don't go around criticizing it unfairly like that. I also have strong distaste for Inferno and Necro in H5. Their creatures are fugly and unmatched in this aspect. =] Oops I said it. =x

EDIT: Green Dragons on 3rd week is quite slow maybe; I'll download patch 1.3 tonight and see how it goes.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted September 20, 2006 10:22 AM

Quote:
Sylvan sucks? I suggest you don't put your words so blattenly. You'll upset many Sylvan fans, and probably get flamed. Sylvan in my opinion is pretty much balanced in terms of early and end game. I always manage to get Citadel and Master Hunters by the first week, Capitol and Castle by second along with Treants, Green Dragons on the third week. This means simply I was never weak at start game and pwned the other players at end game, and I never had problems withresources. I am not claiming to be a very good player, especially when I've just started with H5 not long. But I think Nival intended to and so far made all 6 factions with strengths and weaknesses.

So yeah, just mind your words. If you don't like Sylvan, fine. But don't go around criticizing it unfairly like that. I also have strong distaste for Inferno and Necro in H5. Their creatures are fugly and unmatched in this aspect. =] Oops I said it. =x

EDIT: Green Dragons on 3rd week is quite slow maybe; I'll download patch 1.3 tonight and see how it goes.


Nobody insulted your mother Anyway what are you,a sylvan defender?Now on 1.3,hard mode I found it kinda impossible to build sylvan as fast in a medium resources map.And no sylvan doesn't suck but unless you get an outrageous quantity of wood you won't be able to build treants 2nd week(not to mention its horde dwelling) or even think about upgrading anything(master hunters in 1st week for 15 wood,are you kidding me?).You may even have a problem building castle when you've built all unupgraded dwellings and other buildings(most of which require wood too) for capitol.Green dragons 3rd week..?Wait to see now.Things are VERY different with the new patch.

Quote:
It would be senseless to create a faction that totally sucks and gets pwned by the rest. No one would play it and it would be a waste of the company's resources programming and animating the entire faction.

...HAHAHAHAHA!Play academy!Sounds like the way Nival works.

Ps:Read the title next time,that's not 1.2
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted September 20, 2006 12:45 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 12:59, 20 Sep 2006.

Well I wrote "sylvan sucks" because it's infuriating to lose because a) wood demands b) terrible creeping.

It's actually quite bad. Yes, you can use hunters, but in fact, they die to anything, and getting master hunters fast is harder in 1.3. And even the masters don't stand a chance against: gating, offensive spells, deleb's ballista, trained marksmen, hordes of skellies + tent, battle diving griffins, squires - among other things. They are TOO FRAGILE!
Elder druids are dangerous, but only when you must kill them to get an important mine. I dunno why, but they disappointed me in bigger battles. Sylvan army terribly lacks creeping power! How do you want to kill ~30 neutral master hunters? Your hunters will kill some and in return, neutrals will kill half of your stack! Dancers, sprites, hunters - they die horribly fast! Imagine a band of sprites guarding the sawmill.. You will lose like 50% of your hunters if you decide to use them, if not, 50% of the dancers.. nah, Sylvan sucks (in case the sylvan fans will get angry, let me state that it's only my opinion. ).

And, as Elvin said, this is 1.3. Things are drastically different, just because the resource costs went crazy!

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Ambidext
Ambidext


Adventuring Hero
Wandering knight
posted September 20, 2006 01:44 PM

Well, yeah I'm kind of a Sylvan fan. Well, ok, now that I've downloaded the patch. Let me go try and see how hard it is. I'll play a Hard map and see what I can do.

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dfortae
dfortae


Known Hero
posted September 21, 2006 10:43 PM

Do you want to know how to creep with Sylvan early?  Secret: Treants.

Get them as quickly as possible.  Try to get War Machines ability and make sure you get a tent and ballista.  Hopefully you'll get the Tent ability as well.  The high defense allows them to creep across the battlefield with ranged units taking shots (doing hardly any damage).  The tent heals them and the ballista shoots down ranged as the treants approach.  If fighting melee, just go into defense mode and wait for things to approach.  Shoot down with hero and ballista.  You won't loose a single unit and Treants are 100% healed after every battle.  Queue up your other units in the castle for later.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted September 21, 2006 11:01 PM

Quote:
Do you want to know how to creep with Sylvan early?  Secret: Treants.

Get them as quickly as possible.  Try to get War Machines ability and make sure you get a tent and ballista.  Hopefully you'll get the Tent ability as well.  The high defense allows them to creep across the battlefield with ranged units taking shots (doing hardly any damage).  The tent heals them and the ballista shoots down ranged as the treants approach.  If fighting melee, just go into defense mode and wait for things to approach.  Shoot down with hero and ballista.  You won't loose a single unit and Treants are 100% healed after every battle.  Queue up your other units in the castle for later.


If only warmachines was offered more often...
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Unixmage
Unixmage


Known Hero
Demon Slayer
posted September 21, 2006 11:49 PM

This is unfair!! I'm off to see if I can buy H3 or H4...

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Ambidext
Ambidext


Adventuring Hero
Wandering knight
posted September 22, 2006 03:34 AM

Yes, Treants. I played H5 all night, until 2.30am yesterday, experimenting with different styles. I finally managed to cope a Hard difficulty and build a decent force by week 3. Here's how I did it.

Week 1:
I played Windrose, a map with a nice amount of resources and mines, though heavily guarded(often lots-hordes of lv4s). First day I got 3 Heroes. With a little luck aiding me, I managed to rally 20 Pixies, 6 Hunters and 27 Blade Dancers. I broke through lv1 creatures suffering little or no casualties, got my sawmill, orepit and fought and died hard for a few piles of wood. End of week 1 I got my Hunter's Lodge and a Citadel. Only 3 elves and 18 Blade Dancers survived on day 7.

Week 2:
Regathered my new recruits, and fought for more piles of resources. That included Succubus Mistresses and Minotaur Guards. Got my mines as well. Once I got my Treants and Castle end of week 2, I conquered my whole island. As mentioned, Treants were the key. I fought a horde of Stone Gargoyles and a pack of Nightmares without dying a single Hunter. This involved Treants intercepting fast creatures in the middle of the field. They're fcking tanks!! 175hp, 34 Def(on my hero), even 5 Nightmares did under 30 damage each time. Amazing. While I got them rooted to the ground, I let the Hunters do the real damage. My main hero was Ossir and he had Expert Luck. So... 29 Hunters killed 6 Nightmares in a single turn. Another key damage dealer were the Druids, needless to say. They do most damage for their level because of their Lightning Bolt. Sent secondary hero to sea to claim chests and flotsams.

Week 3:
Suffered a pretty bad lack of gold. Got as much chests I could and played defensive for awhile. Left most of my creatures unrecruited, and saved up for Capitol. By day 5 I got the Capitol, day 7 I recruited my core creatures again(Hunters and Druids). 1 Treant was sufficient... it doesn't die! zomgzz.

Week 4:
Got Green Dragons, saved up a couple of days, and recruited the rest. Main hero conquered the last few creeps for additional resources.

Week 5:
Recruited Green Dragons, 1 more Treant, 15 Unicorns total, 49 Hunter Masters, 20 Pixies, 22 Blade Dancers and 20 Elder Druids. Set out to sea, and kicked the comps ass. It got late and I had work today, so I slept. I'll continue the rest of the skirmage tonight.

=]

So, Sylvan isn't as weak as you guys think. It's how you play, how you discover. Every faction has their own strengths and weaknesses, it's how you discover, exploit and abuse the strengths. In the case of Sylvan, it's obvious that the damage dealers die fast and the tanks deal close to no damage. But the Treants have the amazing ability to root, so abuse it! Root the flyers/fast movers to the ground and give 'em all you got. Shooters though not the best handled, can be taken care of by dragons, sprites, dancers and unicorns. Now I only fear spell casters as a Sylvan player.

Feel free to comment on this post, I enjoy sharing and improving in the process. Cheers.
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted September 22, 2006 07:35 AM

Relying on a skill that's next to impossible to get and a level 6 creature for creeping? No thanks.


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Ambidext
Ambidext


Adventuring Hero
Wandering knight
posted September 22, 2006 08:57 AM
Edited by Ambidext at 09:08, 22 Sep 2006.

What skill's next to impossible? Sure you have your preferances... you can choose to shun the Sylvan, but there are still people who like it. Rather than discussing and finding ways to improve, you're once again saying negative things of no constructive value.

Treants are cheap, have the hp of a lv7 creature and ain't that hard to get. Before you get them, the key lies in recruiting both heroes from your tavern. Just rally as much as you can, for most Sylvan heroes start with too little troops(unlike the Gremlin specialist in Academy who starts with 70+ Gremlins).

Now, don't be so bitter. Rather than picking a fight with you, let me contribute to your starting post with a Sylvan review, since you hate it.

Sylvan
Suggested army: All of them. Every creature has specific roles.
Good Heroes: Ossir, Talanar, Gilraen
Sprites are basically cannon-forders. Very important role. Similar to imps, which stand for I-Must-Perish. With Ossir(my usual main hero), the hunters would be a power house damage dealer. 50 of them(not hard to obtain) is quite a force to be reckoned with, _especially_ when the Treants come into play. They have low initiative for a good reason. They allow the enemy to move first, then move up to intercept them with rooting. They're tanks that don't die, and force the enemy to make them their only targets. Try to grab as many as you can(it occupies 2x2 pixels). Hunters and Druids will then finish off the targets quickly binded by the Treants. Dragons take out fliers, Silver Unicorns blind or take the retaliation, then War Dances move in to do additional damage. As you can see, the Sylvan force is one of the few whereby all creatures have specific roles and are needed in battle, making them one of the most efficient armies in H5.
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted September 22, 2006 09:26 AM
Edited by Doomforge at 10:33, 22 Sep 2006.

I do not hate it, I just suck with sylvan.

I meant warmachines, it's good for sylvan heroes, but nearly impossible to get.

Also, try to play peninsula map. Just for a test. If you get master hunters blocking your way, try to beat them without losing nearly all your hunters. And then, a rushing hero will come (I mean playing vs. human opponent, not the dumb AI) and you will have tiny stack of hunters (because of the earlygame loses), maybe some druids, that's all - against a powerful army! Sylvan is helpless here..

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Ambidext
Ambidext


Adventuring Hero
Wandering knight
posted September 22, 2006 03:48 PM

Hmm. You're not entirely wrong. Sylvan is indeed a very hard faction to play. Mid game, when I get like 5-7 Green/Emerald Dragons, they get slaughetered all the time. Every week 2 dragons slaughtered. A still-mate. Meanwhile the necro comp became an invincible army.

Though Sylvan is difficult, it is satisfying and I enjoy it. Cheers.

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dfortae
dfortae


Known Hero
posted September 22, 2006 09:47 PM
Edited by dfortae at 21:48, 22 Sep 2006.

Quote:
I do not hate it, I just suck with sylvan.

I meant warmachines, it's good for sylvan heroes, but nearly impossible to get.

Also, try to play peninsula map. Just for a test. If you get master hunters blocking your way, try to beat them without losing nearly all your hunters. And then, a rushing hero will come (I mean playing vs. human opponent, not the dumb AI) and you will have tiny stack of hunters (because of the earlygame loses), maybe some druids, that's all - against a powerful army! Sylvan is helpless here..


The warmachines are a MINOR part of my strategy.

The important part was the Treants.  Without the warmachines skill, get a different one like 'Endurance' spell, or whatever.  The skill doesn't make the strategy work.  The TREANTS do.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted September 22, 2006 09:58 PM

it takes about two weeks to get treants. What will you do before you get them, sit there and do nothing? On small maps, doing nothing means instant loss, you know

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted September 22, 2006 10:16 PM
Edited by Elvin at 22:31, 22 Sep 2006.

You are mistaken.With luck(elven),defence(vitality) and maybe leadership you can do fine with just the 1st four tiers.You'll face ranged later than 2nd week anyway.If you want take Wyngaal to play first,it may be easier that way I almost forgot:with a good stack of bladedancers and pixies you can take out archers too.But you may have to sacrifice one of them.If you also have hunters in just move pixies/bdancers close to enemy archers,they usually prefer to attack these with full power instead of the hunters.
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dfortae
dfortae


Known Hero
posted September 23, 2006 12:53 AM

Quote:
it takes about two weeks to get treants. What will you do before you get them, sit there and do nothing? On small maps, doing nothing means instant loss, you know


Well, since the latest patch it is a lot harder to get them.  Before you could get them before week 1 was up.

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