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| Thread: How deep the reality question can go. | |
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted October 03, 2006 09:48 PM |
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Edited by Celfious at 21:49, 03 Oct 2006.
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How deep the reality question can go.
originaly posted in HCs got talent check it out This is the refined version (very refined) of an earlier failed attempt at... carrying a message. The message now seemingly forces its way into a reader. I suggest you not read it if you are a believer in religion as it will only hurt you or anger you, although if you do, try to remember it does not rebuke (right word?) any variation of belief
The statement "don’t believe without proof" is very underestimated by society. Blindly believing in something that is incorrect is much like believing in a fictional story. There is a lot less we can be sure about than things we can prove. The things we see are practical, and a degree of belief in them is good, but our eyes may be to convincing. It's important to know how language, thoughts, and beliefs are so closely related they are almost the same things.
Everything we think or say starts off as a recalled belief. These beliefs pass through brocas area area of the mind, which creates and breaks down word structures. A belief is basically a learned idea which has been accepted by an individual in the form of thought and language. Even thoughts in our minds are made up of words and language. Thoughts and beliefs are two sides of the same thing. Thoughts are more flexible with language -and usually there are enough words known to complete the thought. "How" can someone say beliefs start all our thoughts? Because all thoughts are true to the thinker.
Our blind faith (unproven belief) in untrue things is similar to believing a story real when it is not. In the case of belief in reality, there are 1000's of blind beliefs without proof. Those beliefs conflict with one another, and neither has proof, else a mass acceptance of proof would occur, blotting out past nonsense, blind faith, and perceptions. The way our mind works between language communication and belief is a way which creates an alternate to reality (like stories). Granted, most things we believe (solids are real) are "is as we see it" we have beliefs about bigger unproven things, defining reality as we don’t know it. A belief is more influencing than stories, and it’s a 99.9% chance beliefs which oppose others are (like stories) alternate realities. Blind faith is in nearly everything we believe.
Without blind faith there’s a lot less we can be sure about than things we can prove. What if in reality we are pure souls or spirits, and not even colors exist outside of illusions. What if we're in a dream world or computer world where every scientific detail is based on an alternate far from the true reality? What if everything is only as we see it? Even if that’s true, we still haven’t proved all we see. We don’t know many things because most of our beliefs are theory or stem from other theories. The perceptions we have are neither proven true nor false. There is scarce little we can be sure about unless we -for good reason- over look the non obvious.
Don’t misunderstand any of these concepts. It's ok to be down to earth. That which is true to the eye, even if false, has provided functionality for many years. If you run into a tree you will probably get the same results thinking its real, or it only seems real. A philosopher Rene Descartes said that nothing except he exists can be proven to him (as some people perceive it) "I think therefore I am". I am sure he referred to food as food, math as math, ECT when he was living a regular (not deep philosophic) life. Our interpretation of what we see is wrong or not, but it's convincing because of how practical it is. Great powers and/or minds are at work if things are not as it seems to us. Yes the universe is convincing by its practicality, but it has not proven its origin, meaning, or the reality behind it all. Technically there is nothing it can prove until it proves what itself is. (Fully proven and practically proven are not the same things)
In conclusion, you can only believe in most things by blind faith. Stories are an alternate to reality like language and out beliefs. We can prove a lot of things for practicality but we can’t prove them 100%. Things looked at with simplicity provides function. Language, thoughts, and beliefs are all closely related and created by humanity.
shew - the official paper about what I found 12 years searching for reality. Untitled right now.
complete
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted October 04, 2006 09:09 PM |
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thrash it.. compliment it..
or say you wont even try to read 2 paragraphs.
please thanks.
no biggy
just what I would want people to remember me by if I died (until I get some other better not out there, not that I plan to die)
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted October 10, 2006 04:08 PM |
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Quote:
or say you wont even try to read 2 paragraphs.
I actually didn't even try to read 1, but since it's no biggy, I can at least confess that. 
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted October 10, 2006 04:25 PM |
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lol i get back for the first time after the post I made here and your post is #2 last replies.
its cool everyone. This is clishay (spelling lol) anyways.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 11, 2006 01:30 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 01:00, 12 Oct 2006.
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Hehe it was a long post but as a Tolkien fan I can deal with it
More often than not people perceive as real what they see/believe it to be.This can be from an incident they have seen,a tv broadcast,a religion/tradition thing or something told by a close friend.It's not always about ignorance but about the need to believe in something.As you said what we know to be real comes from theories that depend on other theories etc and so in truth we can be certain about little.But a human's insecurity and ego cannot accept that.We need to prove both to ourselves and to others around us that we KNOW.
Both religion and tradition require of us to blindly follow some rules and view some things as real and important.But mostly they are:These are a cornerstone for our character,something we can depend on so that we know we can our place and try to improve it furthermore and expand our horizons.It's what keeps us from an empty existence.On the other hand even though our nature is suspicious of everything we live in an era that bombards us constantly with a barrage of information.We can only comprehend and check ourselves only a portion of it and little time to do it.So naturally we take for granted more than we should and there are the people that can take advantage of that.
It is like a double edged blade:While we need to believe some things as real and don't care enough to disprove the rest this can lead to our either manipulation or limitation.Subtle manipulation by those that control the media to either forget about something or learn an alternate or incomplete version of what happens and limitation due to adherance to religion and tradition/customs.Tradition is usually tied to history and practicality.It may pass as a rule that we need to hate a neighbouring country because of a past misdeed or competition for resources over a piece of land.It helps us survive and even thrive but things may change later with the need for hostility gone,yet it remains in the subconscious of our minds.We need to remember our roots but all the while know what beliefs we should keep and what has become obsolete or harmful.But it takes a lot of time to pass,careful pondering and contact with people that have different values.
Sorry to all for this long post!
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bjorn190
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
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posted October 12, 2006 01:46 AM |
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In the reality question, I turn to pataphysics.
What is "real"? What does the word mean? It means that something is better than something else.
In our mutual reality, "real", is merely the dominant perspective on what is true.
Science is a web of theories where errors are believed to be replaced by corrections. However, history shows that the only thing mankind has ever done right, is to be wrong. Errors are not replaced by errors, but rather new more innovative errores, in a heroic attempt to pin down one point of view as "truth".
There is no real, at least not a real percievable by humans. Any particular perspective is merely one side of a threedimensional existance-cube.
However, in our daily lives, we must obey the dominant regime of truth or be punished, by our peers, by our less than peers, and by society. In those terms, reality is whatever the crowd with the biggest weapons says that it is. And you're a slave to that.
Unless u break free from the thíngs that anchor u in reality: Your finite lifespan, the un-ability to change the past, and your need for resources like air, water and food. This we cannot do.
So you must accept the "reality", but you have a choice. You can meticulously adapt to "reality", while remaining free in your mind - or you can let "reality" penetrate you to the core, let it dictate your mind, conforming and giving up whatever once made you unique.
Love can set you free from all these things. Once you've truly loved, you will always be free. Because there will be no shackles with a greater power than that of love. There will be no boundries to the magnitude of what you've felt. Love transcends existance.
This is my realiy.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 12, 2006 08:56 PM |
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I agree that the majority is forcing on us their own 'reality' but adhering to it doesn't make it any more real.Unfortunately most people are gravitated around the opinion of the many.A simple experiment was conducted to see how the majority can infuence an individual:
There would be 5 people going one after another to look at a picture with 4 lines and tell which one is the longer.The first 4 were secretly told to choose a specific but incorrect line and when the fifth's turn came he too singled out the same line.When asked,he wouldn't admit he was influenced but that he made a mistake
There are of course ways to adapt while remaining unchanged within but it depends on what we are talking about.If it is something people feel strongly about it is unwise to challenge them especially if we have nothing to earn.Let them believe whatever they wish.But we cannot abide to everything that is contrary to our conscience and beliefs even if it is just an act.Dignity dictates that you stand your ground at least for some things if they are ever to have a substance.
You are right about love.It can make you disregard many things you otherwise wouldn't even if it spells trouble for you!Though I've seen people enslaved to their misconception and going out of character just to please their significant other often supressing their true self.I guess there's two sides to everything.
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted November 03, 2006 10:46 PM |
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Edited by Celfious at 22:48, 03 Nov 2006.
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BOLD IS BASICLY QUOTEATIONS
bjorn thanks for the insight and everything.
What is "real"? What does the word mean? It means that something is better than something else.
Hm, better than "something" else? I'm not sure :l "Something" would have to be real in order to be less or greater than. right? (questions self)
In our mutual reality, "real", is merely the dominant perspective on what is true.
real is real reguardless of what we believe.
Science is a web of theories where errors are believed to be replaced by corrections. However, history shows that the only thing mankind has ever done right, is to be wrong. Errors are not replaced by errors, but rather new more innovative errores, in a heroic attempt to pin down one point of view as "truth".
Ty bjorn. I gotta add a lot of these things we believe could be true in more than one way. Example. The sun is a sun. Well, thats 100% true in one way. Say it like this. "Based on our perceptions which could be true, we call the thing in the sky a sun.
There is no real, at least not a real percievable by humans. Any particular perspective is merely one side of a threedimensional existance-cube.thanks again
However, in our daily lives, we must obey the dominant regime of truth or be punished, by our peers, by our less than peers, and by society. In those terms, reality is whatever the crowd with the biggest weapons says that it is. And you're a slave to that.
True but they claim to have proof and deny their perceptions are not "proven" to be 100% reliable. Even put religion here philosophy would rebute a lot of science in ways yet people continue to A: Rely on science, B: dont mix science with religion, and C: believe in existances beyond, above, below, within, and outside of, the one we label as science.
Did I mention they have as much faith a table is a table as they have faith in explanations which turn tables (or anything) into well, anything but a table with atoms and elements ect.
Elvin thanks. Sorry it took me so long to read here. (no pc)
More often than not people perceive as real what they see/believe it to be.
It's not always about ignorance but about the need to believe in something.
Interesting thanks. I thought about this for a bit and now believe it is not just a need, its not only inevitable, but it is unstoppable. We are designed in a way which makes it impossible to believe in nothing. We are wierd seriously. I want to highlight something I said in post 1 (essay thing). "All thoughts are true to the thinker" It's impossible to have thoughts which we dont even believe in. Seriously, If your into stuff like this think about it and try something. Try to have a single thought in your mine, just one, which is something you dont believe. Try to think of something you do not believe in. Impossible right? Sure I can have thoughts about fake things, but I will believe they are fake to begin with. I challenge anyone and ask you to prove me wrong. I want awnsers but I think I have this one. All thought is in a big way true to the thinker. All.
It may pass as a rule that we need to hate a neighbouring country because of a past misdeed or competition for resources over a piece of land
This is a good example Elvin. I'd like to put into another focus. I camer up with a word to describe people who dislike anything other than themselves or their own kind (basicly). superiorist
Political party, SPECIES, Race gender whatever. (yea yea we are bad to animals and bugs and how many people think their superior to animals?) Anyways I hope you see my point. Superiorist
I agree that the majority is forcing on us their own 'reality' but adhering to it doesn't make it any more real.
Yea, real is real reguardless what we think it is.
Unfortunately most people are gravitated around the opinion of the many
most of the time most people are. We're influenced by parents, peers, authorities, and media. For example, what Tony believes would be different if he were adopted somewhere else. Why, just today tony demanded everyone respect democrats but if tony was adopted he would be republican. And these are deep beliefs too.
Love... lol I dont know if I was clear about this but I do believe there are things we can prove. A lot of it involves the comment "according to my perceptions" yadda yadda yadda"
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 04, 2006 01:17 AM |
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You welcome Truth be told none can think in an absolutely objective manner.Reality is different for everyone and all we can do is compromise with others on what it is or is not.Each holds a piece of the puzzle and may offer you an insight so long as it does not contradict your reality.
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TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
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posted November 10, 2006 12:41 PM |
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in Rene Descarte's first meditation he posed the question as to what if everything we know, what we think of as real, is just an illusion, trickery from an evil demon when we could be somewhere else doing something else.
Teaches you that you can't even take the world around you as true.
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John says to live above hell.
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted November 12, 2006 01:35 AM |
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"The word, I think...for this kind of studying is called Epistemology....the study of how we "know" things."
said resnullia
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