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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: worst creature for its lvl
Thread: worst creature for its lvl This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV
Gregonar
Gregonar


Hired Hero
posted October 26, 2008 10:06 AM
Edited by Gregonar at 10:12, 26 Oct 2008.

Huh? I agree about the zombs, but wolfies? They are one of the best units for lvl. 2. That's only one of the flaws you made. [end quote]

Um, you can't siege with them, they cost too much for 10hp/5def, and any kind of intelligent play (tactics, misc magics) by the other player means you lose the whole stack before second round- their attack/def ratio is just too high. I believe that this is the general problem with stronghold as their high attack units may very well never get to attack. At least marksmen can be shielded for a bit and will almost certainly get to hit before they die. It's a similar story to the Titans and Gold Dragons that never get built in time.

Quick layman's math:

kill priority ratio = (attack*dmg)/(def*hp)

wolfies - (8*3.5*2)/(5*10) = 56/50 = 1.12

pick random high attack unit...

crusader - (12*8.5*2)/(35*12) = 0.49
grand elf - (9*4*2)/(15*5) = 72/75 = 0.96
sprite - (3*2)/(3*3) = 0.67

So you see, you've an unit with the attack power way too high. It doesn't fly, it doesn't shoot, and so is simply fodder. I'd like my fodder to cost less and take more damage. Thanks.  
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Gregonar
Gregonar


Hired Hero
posted October 26, 2008 10:09 AM
Edited by Gregonar at 10:09, 26 Oct 2008.

I'm sorry, but you do't know much about the game. Don't worry tough, if you want to improve your skills you are in the right place.


Oh, and by the way, that statement just makes you sound like an ivy league quack.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 26, 2008 10:57 AM

Gregonar, your arithmetics make no sense, sorry.

a unit with 4 Hps, attack, defense, and damage 2 (and speed 3) would be 0.50 and probably what you call pretty balanced.

However, a unit with 4 HPs, attack 3, defense 1, and damage 2 (and speed 3+x) would be 1.5 and obviously bad because too much on the attack.


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Gregonar
Gregonar


Hired Hero
posted October 26, 2008 11:09 AM

More on Titans

I get gut feelings about all this based on years of intermittent play combined with some thoughts of math and strategy.

angelito himself has said that games are over by week 5 or 6 at the latest. This has been my experience as well. I think you'd have at most, by week 5, 7 Titans. Most likely, you'd have 3 or 5. On the other hand it would not be uncommon to have 7 ghost dragons or 8 ancient behemoths at that time.

Someone mentioned stats- Titans are actually slightly weaker due to the range ability. Consider:

Arch Angel- resurrection, +6 att/def over titans means doing 30% more dmg and taking 15% less, +7 speed, 50 less hp (17% less), easier to access on tech tree
Black Dragon- +1 att/def, magic immunity, 5 dmg less, costs 1000 less. The big bonus here though is the dragon breath, which completely fuddles a lot your enemy's strategic formats.

I would like to coin something called "X factor", which is a quality an unit can have that will single-handedly change the flow of battle; it usually involves the potential to do massive damage the counter to which would significantly weaken enemy strategy. Angels have low X factor but have ridiculous stats (both combat and econ), the same goes to behemoth. Meanwhile units like fire breathers and hydras have very high X factor. This concept ranks Titans very, very low.

I think another key factor to consider is roles lv 7s play in any alignment, which does not work in Titans' favour. I generally do everything in my capacity to outwait the opponent the first turn; and keep everything outside of 10 hex to Titans before they attack: this forces the Titans to deal 1/2 dmg first round while my lv 7 will do full dmg. In a matched battle, this fact alone can swing the win in my favour. In this regard, Titan's range ability is actually a hinderance as I would much rather move however many paces required to deal full damage to an unit and let the lv 7's high def absorb the retaliation. Which brings me to another point:

High level units all have very low attack/def ratios so it may not be a bad idea, in a key battle, to use them as retaliation fodder- I'd rather lose 1 arch angel than 15 crusaders; but only in a key battle! This is central to the reason Mighty Gorgons are so dangerous, because it counters this philosophy. It is generally a good idea to kill off low level units first and fighting against Tower generally means killing everything before touching titans or bothering with golems. However, all alighments except Tower FORCES opponent to hack it out with lv 7s.

Late game Tower is strong almost purely because of magic.

On Ghost Dragons: I can't complain because of their price and accessibility. On Bone Dragons:
vs giants, behemoth- higher mobility gives you strategic potential to make up for slight stat difference; giants also cost more.
vs dragons or angels- can only play the econ card here. boneyard costs nothing and bone dragons cost nothing
vs hydra, devil, firebird- bone dragons actually has more attack power than these guys...though bones cost same or less.

Hope this helps.
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Gregonar
Gregonar


Hired Hero
posted October 26, 2008 11:23 AM

Quote:
Gregonar, your arithmetics make no sense, sorry.

a unit with 4 Hps, attack, defense, and damage 2 (and speed 3) would be 0.50 and probably what you call pretty balanced.

However, a unit with 4 HPs, attack 3, defense 1, and damage 2 (and speed 3+x) would be 1.5 and obviously bad because too much on the attack.




I believe I coined the term "kill priority ratio" and I mean exactly that. I also said "layman's math" for simplicity's sake. There are innumerable such scale systems in the world, but I digress.  

I said nothing about being balanced. Based on your example, the unit with priority ratio of 1.5 should be killed before the one with ratio of 0.5.

And just to clarify one more thing, grand elves, wolfies, and crusaders get a x2 bonus. I know this doesn't work out precisely, and doesn't take into account retaliation or mobility. But hey- "layman".
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 26, 2008 12:13 PM

Yes, but what that means is that the opponent wants to kill the Raiders fast - a level two unit. For Heroes 5 this would mean that you wouldn't want Blood Furies.
I mean, shouldn't the absolute damage play a role (not to mention speed)? the attack rate of T-Birds may be lesser, but their capability of hurting you will be higher.
In any serious battle Wolf Raiders are light cavalry - they are best in routing an already hit opponent and killing lightly armored targets. They don't have highest killing priority just because the damage/hp ratio is high.

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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted October 26, 2008 12:23 PM

Calling wolvies one of the worst level 2 creatures may be one of the funniest things I have read in a while.
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doomnezeu
doomnezeu


Supreme Hero
Miaumiaumiau
posted October 26, 2008 01:17 PM

Quote:
Calling wolvies one of the worst level 2 creatures may be one of the funniest things I have read in a while.


Word. God forbid they reach you.
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Knut_Are_M
Knut_Are_M

Tavern Dweller
posted October 26, 2008 02:49 PM
Edited by Knut_Are_M at 14:57, 26 Oct 2008.

well in general slow walkers are not very good, except for soaking damage.
Also low HP units arent that good either because of the prevalance of damage spells.

Ideally any unit can be good in homm5 with the proper hero though.
Even high HP walkers can be good with exspert prayer or good damage magic.
Early on it really helps to have shooters though.
If i where to design the ideal town, i would have  the first 3 town levels be durable shoothers.The fourth level should be a really fast unit with decent HP and low damage. The last 3 be slow High HP walkers. and make sure that the town had a hero with basic water magic and prayer.
And get a high amount of  spellpower with some knowlege at level up.

Another ideal town would be a town with only high speed units, and a damage magic hero. (So you can creep fast)

But worst unit given the level and town in homm 5 got to be walking dead. I mean the unit sucks overall.

Other then that alot of units usefulness is moderaded by the hero you make during the game, and what kind of units you face.

I once had 40 spirites+level 3 hero) defeat 40 demons.
(Speed+no retaliation made it easy).

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Gregonar
Gregonar


Hired Hero
posted October 26, 2008 09:58 PM

Well w.e chumps. I've had no luck with wolfs except I think I think that luck has nothing to do with it. Also, I've not really ever been bitten by them either.

Let's say you're in a situation where you going to get hit by either T-birds, behemoths, or wolves, and you've 20 angels at 20 att/def

vs T-Bird: dmg = 1000 * [1+0.05*(20-11)] = 1450 or 24 T-Birds, which do 24*12 = 288 dmg at 13 att
vs behemoths: dmg = 1000 * [1+0.05{20-17)] = 1150 or 7 behemoths, which do 7*40 = 280 dmg at 17 att + bonuses
vs wolfs: dmg = 1000 * [1+0.05{20-5)] = 1750 or 175 wolfs, which do 175*3.5= 612.5 dmg at 8 att + extra hit!!! Jeez, not much contest here on who to hit first.  

Also consider that 24 T-birds is 4 weeks worth, 7 Behemoth is 3.5 weeks and 175 wolfs is about 9 weeks worth so what I'm trying to say is that you'll never see so many of them and if in the rare occasion you do, they'll die fast. Oh and let's bring in costs just for fun:

24 TBirds = 24*700 = 16800
7 behemoths = 7*1600 = 11200
175 wolfs = 175*140 = 24500
I rarely upgrade stronghold lv 1 or 2, at least unupgraded, you'd only lose 17500 in that hit
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 27, 2008 07:48 AM

I wonder why you have 20 angels (and probably as many behemoths) but no upgraded ones.
In any case, if you act the way you so in that example, you didn't understand the game well.

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Gregonar
Gregonar


Hired Hero
posted October 27, 2008 09:27 AM

I believe I did so for the sake of easy math. I think I'm talking to a tree.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 27, 2008 12:29 PM

It's WRONG math.

The basic principle of HoMM is the fact that the worth of any creature is RELATIVE, depending on the level they have. In other words, the damage a creature does depends on the attack/defence difference. If you face a normal Stronghold army, you have other things to worry about with your heaviest hitter than the level 2 creature of the unit. The reason for this is that a level 2 unit can be dispatched with basically EVERY creature level unit. However, the higher levels cannot. If you face 20 Ancient Behemoths they are worth so much more than 180 Wolf Raiders because they can do so much more damage.

If 180 Wolf Raiders attack 20 Archangels they will do a modified 283 damage with their first hit killing ONE measely Archangel. The retaliation of 19 AAs will do a modified 2137 damage - killing them all, so that no 2nd hit is possible. Even if the retaliation of the Angels was used they will kill just another AA with their 2nd hit.

But what happens when the Behemoths hit? The AA's defense is reduced from 30 to 6. However this is not realistic. While it doesn't matter with the Wolves - you may assume the same attack and defense values for the Barb and the Knight - in this case it makes one HELL of a difference. With 20 of each Heroes should have EASILY something like 10 attack and 10 defense, so the Behemoth's attack is something like 29 actually, compared to the 8 of the AAs. This will basically DOUBLE the Behemoths' damage to 80 per unit which rounds up to an impressive 1600 damage, killing 6 of them. The retal of the Angels will kill THREE (3) Behemoths only which compares QUITE unfavorably to the Wolf Raider attack.

So your arithmetic is just WRONG, since it ignores basic game concepts.

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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted October 27, 2008 01:08 PM

Quote:
I believe I did so for the sake of easy math. I think I'm talking to a tree.
Maybe you should stop playing 200% vs the computer, but 130% or 160% vs a human player. You will find out pretty fast how devastating a big stack of raiders can be. Computer only plays with maths knowledge. that's why you will never see a computer player attacking a full crypt week 1 day 1, or a small utopia week 2. A good human player on the other hand will always do that. That's because you will never win such fights if you only take maths into account.

Just take the "1 angel vs 250 magogs", or "7 Chaos hydras vs 150 mighty gorgons" fights I posted here. If you only calculate this fight, you will hardly win.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 27, 2008 01:31 PM

To be fair, I don't think that you find AI blind spots in human-human games - you would be an idiot to attack a throng of Mighties with 7 Chaos Hydras in a human-human game if you had no idea HOW you could beat them.
Things like this will be found accidentally most of the time, when you do HAVE a plan of how to beat a more managable number, but the plan doesn't work out for some reason (or maybe it even does), and then suddenly the AI does something stupid.

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SwampLord
SwampLord


Supreme Hero
Lord of the Swamp
posted October 28, 2008 11:46 PM

Quote:
lvl1 - imps
lvl2 - zombies
lvl3 - orc chieftain
lvl4 - medusa queen or greater basilisk. mq > basilisk cuz she can shoot, but she sycks overall.
lvl5 - zealots, ridiculously low hp for its cost.
lvl6 - scorpicore or cyc king , both of them are awful.
lvl7 - ghost dragon, tho its ageing ability is sometimes quite useful.


I don't know, I've always gotten good mileage out of medusas and basilisks, stoning is very useful and medusas are especially good for their versatility.

In any case, Fire/Energy elementals are worse IMO.
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Gregonar
Gregonar


Hired Hero
posted October 28, 2008 11:56 PM

Quote:
It's WRONG math.

The basic principle of HoMM is the fact that the worth of any creature is RELATIVE
[end quote]

What I find absurd is how we can disagree when we essential agree. It's always the higher levels that cause problems in a battle not just because they do more damage by default, but they also take a lot of more damage. What often makes the difference is the lower levels that have potential to damage high level units, like wolfs. While you can't prevent a clash of the titans, you can generally stop wolfs from adding to the mix. Even if your magics and tactics fail and the wolfs get to hit ONCE, they will certainly be dead by round 2. Which sucks because it adds to a list of other complaints I have against an expensive lv 2 high att/low def non-flying melee unit.

I'd play some online except I've never took time to figure out how that works. Too bad there isn't a simple system like Battle.net for blizzard games.
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SwampLord
SwampLord


Supreme Hero
Lord of the Swamp
posted October 29, 2008 03:19 AM

After reviewing stats, I think Silver Pegasi and Horned Demons also come off worse with Medusa Queens and especially Basilisks 1v1, although Demons do have the redeeming feature of potentially overwhelming numbers.

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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted October 29, 2008 10:21 AM

Quote:
I'd play some online except I've never took time to figure out how that works. Too bad there isn't a simple system like Battle.net for blizzard games.
Gamespy is very simple. Download the software for free, get an account for free. Enter H3 lobby and meet 20-40 players daily. If you are connected without router, you can play through Gamespy or via TCP/IP. If you have a router and you are not into these "technical" stuff how to open/forward router ports, just download hamachi for free and play through that program.

Details can be found in the opening post of this thread.
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