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| Thread: Lvl 7 Dwelling generation | |
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devangle1984
Known Hero
I am the Dark Vader
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posted November 20, 2006 03:21 PM |
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Lvl 7 Dwelling generation
Hello ppl...well i was just curious on random creature generations on jebus templates or any for that matter.....and wanted to put this query foward.....which town is most likely to have a lv7 external dwell generated on those temps....
i have often come across lv7 dwels when choosin stronghold and fortress......is it just my histeria or is there a fixed % chance of a lvl7 dwel to be created all equal to all towns?
your feedback will be much appretiated 
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted November 20, 2006 06:00 PM |
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The value in the rmg file for a level 7 dwelling is the same for all towns.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted November 20, 2006 06:39 PM |
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While the value is fixed, some terrains lack certain buildings and sites. So, I would assume that the less sites a terrain can have (especially - sites close to level 7 dwells in value), the higher its chance to get the dwells. I don't think this difference is anywhere near being significant enough to affect anything, though.
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devangle1984
Known Hero
I am the Dark Vader
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posted November 20, 2006 06:50 PM |
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hmm....nice one russ....pretty interestin..
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted November 20, 2006 07:10 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 19:10, 20 Nov 2006.
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Idea is right Russ, but in that case, as u mentioned, it doesn't matter.
The objects which only can occur in specific terrains (crypts, waterwheels, wagons, leprechauns, etc...) all have a very low value. Those things are handled in the first treasure line of the rmg. Level 7 dwellings start at about 7000 value, and I can't think of any object of that high value which has a terrain restriction.
Highest value of a restricted object is around 2000 (crypt), that's why u probably find more level 1 dwells, level 2 dwells and medusa stores on lava terrain, which have about the same value.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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devangle1984
Known Hero
I am the Dark Vader
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posted November 20, 2006 07:54 PM |
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well in that case angel....there is a max cap of value for each part of the 4 areas (jebus) right....lets say 45k. wat value does a tope have..is it similar to the value of a lv7 dwel?
so in maps where u will find 2 lv7 dwels.....u will have less of other objects true?
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russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted November 20, 2006 09:38 PM |
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Quote:
well in that case angel....there is a max cap of value for each part of the 4 areas (jebus) right....lets say 45k. wat value does a tope have..is it similar to the value of a lv7 dwel?
so in maps where u will find 2 lv7 dwels.....u will have less of other objects true?
Angelito said that level 7-s have value of 7000. I think that level 3 arties have 5000-6000 value (so, you may get smth like level 3 artie + a chest instead of level 7 dwell). Hives are 9000, topes are around 10000.
If you look at Jebus (or any other) template you'll find 3 different treasure values. Say, the range is 5000-10000 and the computer selects 7000. I think generator first looks to choose something that fits exactly (like level 7 dwell which has a value of around 7000). If the random check fails, it will look for lesser dwells to fill it with (like major artie + a chest). Then if it fails again it will look for even lesser things and it might fill it with say, crypt + level 2 artie + 2 resource piles. Etc, etc, etc.
So, obviously, if a computer decides to create 3 guards with a value of 5000-10000 and one of them is guarding the abovementioned level 3 artie + a chest, there will be less level 7 dwells.
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maretti
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted November 20, 2006 10:07 PM |
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Quote:
If you look at Jebus (or any other) template you'll find 3 different treasure values. Say, the range is 5000-10000 and the computer selects 7000. I think generator first looks to choose something that fits exactly (like level 7 dwell which has a value of around 7000). If the random check fails, it will look for lesser dwells to fill it with (like major artie + a chest). Then if it fails again it will look for even lesser things and it might fill it with say, crypt + level 2 artie + 2 resource piles. Etc, etc, etc.
So, obviously, if a computer decides to create 3 guards with a value of 5000-10000 and one of them is guarding the abovementioned level 3 artie + a chest, there will be less level 7 dwells.
First of all I dont understand this very well, could you explain it in other words please? How does these 3 diffrent tressure values work?
@Devster, There might be some max value for each area but the fact is that one area sometimes can have twice the value of another area. The size of the area must mean something too. It would be great if the value of all the areas were exactly the same. Would give more balanced games. Would be even greater if you could make sure that you would get the same amount of certain buildings, especially lvl 7 dwells. Does anyone have any idea if this could be possible?
In generel lava terrain is more empty than others. Probably cause some of the low valued building are not possible there and it seems like the area isnt filled with higher value stuff, in contrary its just left empty, so my guess would be that the chance of lvl 7 dwells are the same for all towns, would be nice to know some more about how this work exactly though.
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck
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devangle1984
Known Hero
I am the Dark Vader
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posted November 20, 2006 10:12 PM |
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Aaaaa maretti0 ...wat took u so long  ...true i agree....i tried lookin for a sequence in the rmg...but unfortunately my ming gives way....hopefully iam sure someone will be able to shed some light
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Xarfax111
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
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posted November 20, 2006 10:54 PM |
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...well thats what i would say is an interesting question.
You are new here, but you are definately NOT a noobie. Thanks.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted November 21, 2006 12:22 AM |
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To make something clear I prolly misstyped in my first post:
NO subject has a specific value.
Every subject has a value RANGE.
Means:
An utopia has a value range of (aprox.) 10.000 - 25.000
A level 7 dwelling a range of (aprox.) 7.000 - 15.000
A level 5 dwelling a range of (aprox.) 5.000 - 12.000
A nagabank a range of (aprox.) 7.000 - 12.000
A conservatory a range of (aprox.) 2000 - 8.000
A goldpile has a range of 300 - 1900
And this fact is what makes it that complicated to get a balanced map. Here is an example:
1 of the 3 treasure value ranges in the rmg looks like that:
5.000 - 11.000 6
The "6" in the end stands for the density. The higher the number, the more treasure out of that range u will find.
So what could u find on the map now?
You could either find 1 or 2 utopias and maybe 2 level 5 dwells...and some lower stuff.
You could also find 4 level 7 dwells and 1 nagabnak.
Or u will find 3 nagabanks and 2 conservatories.
All these examples would fit into the given value range...but we all know they are not balanced.
Too many different objects "share" the same value....that's why u may get very unbalanced maps.
So the best thing to make a map more balanced is to keep these ranges small.
Jebus has these 3 treasure values:
1.12000 22000 1
2.5000 16000 6
3.300 3000 14
The first line mostly gives utopias, level 7 dwellings, relics or boxes with 10k-15k exp.points...but only 1 or 2 objects.
The second line is the dangerous one...very high range. You could find many level 5 dwells....or many nagabanks....or level 7 dwells...or utopias....and not only 1 of them...
The third line is the "cons"-danger line. Conservatories start at 2000. And with a density of 14, u could easily find 3-5 cons, while the other player has 7 crypts....same value...not really fair though..lol
If this 3rd line would be changed to 300-1950, u would miss medusa stores and cons in that range. And also boxes with level 1, level 2 spells, some low level units and 5k exp.points. All thes rewards in a box have a value between 2000 and 5000.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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maretti
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted November 21, 2006 01:03 AM |
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Imagine we could set the treassure values as we wanted (number and range) and we could set the value of any objekt as we wanted. Then we could design a map with exactly the number of diffrent objekts we wanted and make random maps much more balanced. Could this be possible in any way?
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck
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devangle1984
Known Hero
I am the Dark Vader
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posted November 21, 2006 10:04 AM |
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well first of all angel....thanks for that detailed explanation...it really makes alot of sense( even my babaric brain got it  ) ..
Maretti0....well true it does sound good havin a balaced game but don't u think it takes out that randomness out of the game..true the fact that sometimes it becomes too unbalanced but then again u do get that bit of rush in the first week of seekin 2 lvl 7 dwels and hopin ur opponent does not have any he he...
Angel....all these alterations could be made could'nt it...i mean a new temp could be made with those settings i presume?
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liophy
Famous Hero
Bulgarian
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posted November 21, 2006 01:54 PM |
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Edited by liophy at 13:56, 21 Nov 2006.
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Exelent explanation Angelito, which may give the start of very nice new rmg templates. But still you said nothing about the observation of marreti - sometimes there are areas so small, there are room only for the town, the wood mine and probably one gold pile... obviously in such areas are not considered all these values (we are talking for original templates like 2SM4d(2)
So the question agains is - do the size of the area influence the objecst, and is there a value wich specifies the size of the area.
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russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted November 21, 2006 05:57 PM |
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Quote:
So the question agains is - do the size of the area influence the objecst, and is there a value wich specifies the size of the area.
Yes, there is a value that influences the size of the area. I spent a few hours trying to get it to work correctly, but it simply won't generate equal areas. The order in which you list the areas does not seem to matter. The size numbers themselves so not seem to matter (setting starting area sizes to 5&5, 10&10, 25&25, or 50&50 can all generate unequal areas). If someone wants to try it again, please do so. If you manage to get consistently equal starting areas in your template - let me know how you did it. (By consistent I mean generating about 10 templates with equal starting areas.)
Quote:
Means:
An utopia has a value range of (aprox.) 10.000 - 25.000
A level 7 dwelling a range of (aprox.) 7.000 - 15.000
A level 5 dwelling a range of (aprox.) 5.000 - 12.000
A nagabank a range of (aprox.) 7.000 - 12.000
A conservatory a range of (aprox.) 2000 - 8.000
A goldpile has a range of 300 - 1900
I'd like to point out that the value of, say, conserv itself is not 2,000 - 8,000. I belive it is about 2,000 - 3,500. (x - x + 1500, same as with pretty much anything else.) Everything above 3,500 will always be cons + smth else (you can get cons + smth else with as low as 2,500 guard)
@angelito
Btw, I've done a lot of looking into random templates. Are there any threads about .rmgs in the library? If not then I guess I should post .rmg format as well as the results of all my findings about .rmgs in a separate thread.
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dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
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posted November 21, 2006 06:37 PM |
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RMGs in Library
I think you can find pretty much all info you 'd like about RMGs in library, in references I give in my post in this thread.
Or easier, go directly: @angelito: Random Templates
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The empty set
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maretti
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted November 21, 2006 09:01 PM |
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Quote:
Maretti0....well true it does sound good havin a balaced game but don't u think it takes out that randomness out of the game..true the fact that sometimes it becomes too unbalanced but then again u do get that bit of rush in the first week of seekin 2 lvl 7 dwels and hopin ur opponent does not have any he he...
Noone says you have to make everything balanced. I agree there should still be a big amount of randomness. But knowing that you will have the same amount of lvl 7 dwells on temps like jebus and extreme 2 will be a big improvement imo.
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck
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